Previously Unknown Grade 104 Hunter 23j Hampden RR Variant Found

[rschussel]

My most recent acquisition has enabled me to determine that a previously unknown Tutone Hampden 23j Hunter exists.

Background
The Hampden Watch Co Book by HERNICK AND ARNOLD list a production run of 200 for 16S 23J HT4L 5P. Note that the hunter movement is Tutone and marked No. 104. adjusted to 5 positions (see below). Grade 104 is Hampdens premier Railroad grade watch and the movement sold for $74.68 in 1905.



In the run of 200 is a notation for serial number 2,075022 (grade number not marked) . As only one serial number was listed it could not be determined if this was a one-off factory error or whether a production run occurred.




My latest acquisition 2,075,044 is also missing a Grade Number as well Adjusted to five positions. It is only marked adjusted.

There are also 23j Tutone Hunter Grade 104 SR in flag that has similar Damascening.

The table below shows the three model 4 TuTone Hunters and their marking.

	104 SR TT Hunter	104 RRR TT Hunter	104Variant RRR TT Hunter
Serial #	1,795,001-100 1,899,103-500​	2,075,001-020 2,075,075-200​	2,075,021-074​
Estimated Production	500​	145[​	50​
# Jewels	23[​	23​	]23​
Model	4​	4​	4​
OF/Hunter	Hunter​	Hunter​	Hunter​
Damenskeening	TuTone*​	TuTone*​	TuTone*​
Grade on mvt	Missing​	No. 104​	Missing​
Flag with SR	SR​	Missing​	Missing​
Adj+ Postions	Adjusted​	Adj+5 Pos[ions​	Adjusted​
*Similar Design

If anyone has the variant or one of the Hunter movements marked No. 104, would you please post it.

Kent Singer-- do you have any serial numbers between 2,075,001-074 to help more accurately determine how many of the variants exist?

COMMENTs
1) Why would Hampden choose to only mark 60 of their premier 23j movement as Adjusted while all of the other grade 104s are marked with either SR, adjusted to 5 positions or No. 104.

2) The new variant is the rarest of all the 23j Grades 104s.

 

[Alan Walker]

I’m not certain why Hampden wouldn’t have marked all of the premium movements as adjusted unless they did not intend to market them for railroad customers. The movements are railroad grade, but lacking either the grade number or trademark or the adjusted markings would have automatically disqualified them from railroad time service as new watches.

One possibility is that Hampden did not plan to expand their market share in railroad approved watches. By 1905, Hamilton, Waltham, Elgin and Illinois pretty much dominated the railroad watch trade and were heavily involved in price wars to gain market share in a relatively tight market which was slowly but steadily depressing watch wholesale and retail prices. The fact that railroads sought to reduce the expense of watches to employees by grandfathering older watches as the time service requirements changed didn’t help sale of new watches any.

 

[Nathan Moore]

If anyone has the variant or one of the Hunter movements marked No. 104, would you please post it.

There is one with the patent number marking contributed by a member on the Pocket Watch Database:

Hampden Grade No. 104 SR (in flag) Watch #1899321 - 16s, 23j - Uploaded by dwatson

Hampden Grade No. 104 SR (in flag) Watch #1899321 - 16s, 23j - Uploaded by dwatson

pocketwatchdatabase.com

 

[rschussel]

There is one with the patent number marking contributed by a member on the Pocket Watch Database:

Hampden Grade No. 104 SR (in flag) Watch #1899321 - 16s, 23j - Uploaded by dwatson

Hampden Grade No. 104 SR (in flag) Watch #1899321 - 16s, 23j - Uploaded by dwatson

pocketwatchdatabase.com

Nathan
The movement in the link you posted is in the same production run as the Grade 104 SR that I posted. The grade number is not on the movement only the SR. I was requesting anyone with a Tutone Hunter 23j movement. that included No. 104 on the movement to post it.
The notation No. 104 is not seen on Hampden movements until serial number 2,075,001. Hampden also started to include adjusted to five positions on their Grade 104. Other high grade RR watches also started to include Grade number and adjusted to five positions on the movement.

 

[Kent]

Kent Singer-- do you have any serial numbers between 2,075,001-074 to help more accurately determine how many of the variants exist?

Ed Ueberall and I have the following serial numbers listed in our data base of surviving examples of railroad watches and other interesting (to us) watches. :As always, the data listed is subject to possible errors of reporting or recording.

2,075,017
2,075,022
2,075,037
2,075,044 - Just Added

 

[Kent]

... The movements are railroad grade, but lacking either the grade number or trademark or the adjusted markings would have automatically disqualified them from railroad time service as new watches. ...

As always, when discussing what was necessary for a watch to be accepted into Railroad Time Service, the date must be considered. The serial numbers of the above Hampden watches puts them at a transition in the Railroad Time Service Watch Rules. Prior to 1906, private label watches (lacking manufacturer's grade marking), those only marked "Adjusted" and only to three positions and those only fitted with a single roller were widely accepted.

By 1910, the more familiar requirements were in place:

• Manufacturer's name and standard grade.marked on movement.
• Adjustment to five positions (and so marked).
• fitted with a double roller.

 

[rschussel]

As always, when discussing what was necessary for a watch to be accepted into Railroad Time Service, the date must be considered. The serial numbers of the above Hampden watches puts them at a transition in the Railroad Time Service Watch Rules. Prior to 1906, private label watches (lacking manufacturer's grade marking), those only marked "Adjusted" and only to three positions and those only fitted with a single roller were widely accepted.

By 1910, the more familiar requirements were in place:

• Manufacturer's name and standard grade marked on movement.
• Adjustment to five positions (and so marked).
• fitted with a double roller.

Kent
Thank you for the information.

Do you a picture of a movement in the range of 2,075001 and 2,075,200 marked No.104 Adjusted to five positions that you could show? I think it is important to see what most of the movements in the runs looked like versus the new variant.

Do you have any theories why Hampden would remove the No. 104 and Adjusted to five positions from 50 or so movements?

 

[Kent]

... Do you a picture of a movement in the range of 2,075001 and 2,075,200 marked No.104 Adjusted to five positions that you could show? ...

The only picture I have of movements in the range of 2,075001 - 2,075,200 is 2,075,037. Ed and I do have following movements listed in our data base. All 16S, 23J, Gold-on-Nickel damaskeened (which Ed and I refer to as Tu-Tone) Htg Mvts.

The first are all noted as being marked "Adjusted" or not noted. The second groupare all noted as being marked "A5P" or not noted.

The lack of a notation means the data wasn't reported or recorded.

2,075,017
2,075,022- Grade No. not marked
2,075,037 - Grade No. not marked
2,075,044 - Grade No. not marked - Just Added


2,075,103
2,075,141
2,075,152- Mvt "No. 104"
2,075,164
2,075,169 - Mvt "No. 104"
2,075,186

 

[rschussel]

In the PocketWatchdatabase.com there is a picture of 2,075,077 for which the Grade number and 5 positions is not included. Based on other known serial numbers this suggests that at least 60 movements were produced

 

[rschussel]

To make it easier to read I enlarged the serial number on the watch I acquired 2,075,044

 

[rschussel]

In the PocketWatchdatabase.com there is a picture of 2,075,077 for which the Grade number and 5 positions is not included. Based on other known serial numbers this suggests that at least 60 movements were produced View attachment 764171

I enhanced the picture of 2,075,077 . While the Hampden Watch Co book lists this exact movement as being marked No. 104 and adjusted to five positions clearly it is not.