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pre WWI Louvre

Andy999

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Nov 7, 2015
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Still searching for a pre WW1 Louvre/Bandstand model I have 2 new candidates:

1) Kundo with sn 14366 (images 1 + 2)

2) A Clock with just sn 13124 on the plate, supposed to be a Kundo model (images 3 - 5)

Can anyone confirm one or both being manufactured before 1914?
 

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KurtinSA

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I'll take a couple of guesses:

1+2: Hard to see the back plate clearly but it looks like it's a Kieninger & Obergfell, plate 1388A in the guide which says ca 1935

3-5: I think it's a Badische Uhrenfabrik, plate 1628 in the guide and ca 1910. The saddle bracket appears to be #1 in the guide.

Kurt
 

MartinM

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Clock 1 is a KundO from early 3rd quarter, 1926.
Clock 2 looks to be a Huber that would be a bit older. I don't have any good serial number data for that series. Given the features, I'd SWAG a date in the late teens or very early '20s. The pendulum can't be from earlier than ~1916.
Hopefully, John will be able to nail it down.
 

Andy999

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Thank you very much.
I begin to learn.
So nr. 1 is out of question. And nr. 2 probably also.

Seems not to be that easy to get what I am searching for. But I am not in a hurry.
 

MartinM

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Are you able to view the clocks, physically?
If you can confirm whether the 2nd clock has pin pallets or a solid anchor, that may help identifying it, as well.
 

etmb61

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Still searching for a pre WW1 Louvre/Bandstand model...
I don't think pre WW1 gives you very many choices as most of the common Louvre cased clocks were made after WW1. I think you are limited to clocks by Hauck, Huber, and Vosseler. The Hauck and Huber clocks would look very much like clock 76 on page 40 of the Repair Guide, 10th ed. (that clock is number 23 of the Horolovar Collection by the way). They would have disk pendulums and the movement would be contained within a drum housing. In the Jahres-uhr catalog the clocks are 203 and 203a if you have that reference.

My two cents.

Eric
 

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Andy999

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Thank you Eric

So I will focus my search on Louvre model with disk pendulum.
(My problem was that many Louvre clocks are claimed to be manufactured much earlier than their effective date of construction).
 

John Hubby

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Still searching for a pre WW1 Louvre/Bandstand model I have 2 new candidates:

1) Kundo with sn 14366 (images 1 + 2)

2) A Clock with just sn 13124 on the plate, supposed to be a Kundo model (images 3 - 5)

Can anyone confirm one or both being manufactured before 1914?
Andy, thanks for posting the photos of these two Louvre model clocks. As you can see from the answers given thus far the info available to most collectors has a lot of variance in details. The correct identification is as follows, as supported by databases incorporating numerous examples of each maker:

Clock 1
As you stated it is a Kundo. Kurt correctly pointed to Plate 1388A being the same design illustrated in the Horolovar Repair Guide; Mark points out that Kundo started 400-Day production in 1923 (Kundo was incorporated in 1918); and Martin had the date correct as made in 1926 based on the serial number 14366. Some other details, this clock was one of the last made by Kundo that did not have a suspension guard, the earliest one I have documented with the guard is serial number14587.

Clock 2
This clock has a movement made by Andreas Huber for Kienzle, based on the serial number it was made near the end of 1920. Kurt mentioned Badische Uhrenfabrik (BUF) Plate 1628, that ID is not correct for any of the lantern pinion design plates shown in the RG to be by BUF; all were patented and manufactured by Andreas Huber either for their own use or for sale to Kienzle, BUF, and others. This clock actually has Plate 1627, note that the notch at the top of the plate has straight sides and a round bottom where Plate 1628 had a trapezoid shape notch. Martin mentions correctly that the 4-Ball pendulum with this clock is Kienzle No. 33, first introduced not earlier than December 1915 and from our data more likely early 1916.

Pre-WWI Louvre model clocks generally will be found as follows:

1908 to 1915: Hollow fluted one-piece columns, some slender and some larger diameter. Cupola and base similar to post-WWI models. Disc pendulums. Makers documented to date for this period include Hauck, JUF, Kienzle (only from 1911).

1900-1907: Solid brass machine fluted one piece columns, flat top plate with short dome, plain base, relatively smaller diameter and shorter; all as shown in models No. 203 and 203a in the 1910 JUF 400-Day catalog noted by Eric. Disc pendulums. Movements mounted in round brass drum on large majority of examples. Makers documented to date for this period include Huber (1900-1904), JUF, Hauck (from 1903), W. Wurth & Co.(1904-1907).

Pre-1900: All examples found to date appear to be French cases made in very small numbers, many with champléve decoration on the posts, dials, cupola, etc. Some very large such as Clock No. 4 pg. 34 in the Repair Guide. Makers documented to date include JUF for Harder/DeGruyter (1885), JUF own production (1890's), Huber (late 1890's).

Eric, the clock you pointed out (No. 76 on page 40) is a miniature with Plate 1631 shown in the Repair Guide as made by JUF. My data point to Hauck as the maker and not JUF but that is another story. The full size Louvre model clocks in the period 1900-1907 are actually nearly all similar to the JUF models No. 203 and 203A.
 
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KurtinSA

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Clock 2
This clock has a movement made by Andreas Huber for Kienzle, based on the serial number it was made near the end of 1920. Kurt mentioned Badische Uhrenfabrik (BUF) Plate 1628, that ID is not correct for any of the lantern pinion design plates shown in the RG to be by BUF; all were patented and manufactured by Andreas Huber either for their own use or for sale to Kienzle, BUF, and others. This clock actually has Plate 1627, note that the notch at the top of the plate has straight sides and a round bottom where Plate 1628 had a trapezoid shape notch. Martin mentions correctly that the 4-Ball pendulum with this clock is Kienzle No. 33, first introduced not earlier than December 1915 and from our data more likely early 1916.
John -

You certainly have a keen eye for the details. I guess that's why they call you the "clock whisperer"! :)

Kurt
 

Andy999

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John

Thank you for all your very detailled informations.
I guess I will need to exercice patience in order to find what I'm looking for.
 

Andy999

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Beautiful and exactly what I'm looking for. I hope it won't take me as many years as you to find one.
 

John Hubby

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This is the only one I have found in a lot of years of looking
Very nice, Les! This is the identical clock to model No. 203a illustrated in the JUF 1910 400-Day catalog that Eric posted earlier, however the movement is a Huber c. 1901-1903 Plate 1471H but with the corners of the plates rounded off to fit inside the drum. For the record, JUF also made this identical clock in the same period, with the JUF click layout version of Plate 1471. I've mentioned before that I use "1471H" to identify the Huber plate layout and "1471J" for the JUF plate layout.

For those not familiar with the background on this, the Huber click layout is as seen in Les' clock, that has quite a dogleg position of the three mounting screws for the ratchet bridge, the click, and the click spring. The JUF layout for their PATENT ANGEMELDET stamped movements is identical to what is seen in Plate 1051, Plate 1595 and many other JUF plates made from 1901 onward. These were made during the same time frame as the Huber version.
 

Andy999

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Clock 1
As you stated it is a Kundo. Kurt correctly pointed to Plate 1388A being the same design illustrated in the Horolovar Repair Guide; Mark points out that Kundo started 400-Day production in 1923 (Kundo was incorporated in 1918); and Martin had the date correct as made in 1926 based on the serial number 14366. Some other details, this clock was one of the last made by Kundo that did not have a suspension guard, the earliest one I have documented with the guard is serial number14587.
Does this mean that clocks nr. 74 and 75 in section 6 of the guide were produced after WW1?
 

etmb61

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That's absolutely true for 74. Number 75 was made by Schlenker & Posner, not Kundo, and they produced clocks after 1929.
 

John Hubby

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That's absolutely true for 74. Number 75 was made by Schlenker & Posner, not Kundo, and they produced clocks after 1929.
Eric, I agree with the ID and approx. dating. Actually SuP made clocks from early 1928 to early 1938 when Kern & Sohne purchased their 400-Day business including all stocks, materials, tools, etc. Kern continued to assemble and sell SuP clocks until late 1939 or early 1940 when 400-Day production was shut down for WWII; a number of them made toward the end of this period were stamped with the Kern & Sohne name and/or logo. The serial number shown on Plate 1317 that is tied to clock No. 75 shows it was made in 2nd half 1928.
 

gintarasb64

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Hello ,
Sharing pictures of my new find - unusual 400 day bandstand clock. It is similar to clock posted 5 years ago by Les (https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/pre-wwi-louvre.130137/post-1004616) and very detailly described by John (https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/pre-wwi-louvre.130137/post-1004832) . Very nice and elegant clock, with separate base. Unfortunately the dome was damaged during shipping, thought was very well packed by the sender. The glass of the dome is very thin, so even small push can make damage. Will look for replacement though it is not standard bandstand dome. Any comments would be very interesting:)
Best regards
Gintaras

20210919_133750.jpg 20210919_133135.jpg 20210919_133430.jpg 20210919_133528.jpg
 

MUN CHOR-WENG

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Gintaras,

Your clock certainly looks like the one posted here by Les' 5 years ago, recent research has shown the clock was made by JUF, not Huber. The link below has more information on the toipc.


Mun C W
 
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