Post your WEIGHT driven Vienna here

Discussion in 'General Clock Discussions' started by Scottie-TX, Sep 24, 2009.

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  1. Sooth

    Sooth Registered User
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    Kevin, one of the perks of the particular clock you bought will be that it will have (or SHOULD have) a really nice sounding rod strike.
     
  2. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User
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    Thanks Jean, i was hoping it was a little older, but i still like it. i should post a Youtube link to it striking.
     
  3. petevig

    petevig Registered User

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    IMAG0112.jpg This was my mother's vienna regulator purchased in 1965 as part of the inventory for an antique store she operated in northern California. It has been in the family ever since and was recently handed down to me. The movement is a "Remember", and the movement, pendulum and mounting plate are "matched" serial numbers (54190). The case is in fairly good condition, though not pristine, being a little worse for wear having been moved several times over its lifetime in our family. The bottom finial has small chunks of wood missing. I don't know much else about it except what I was able to find here and from other sites. Since receiving it, it has prompted a renewed interest in older clocks in general, especially ones that I can't afford, so I keep my eyes peeled on craigslist and other selling sites for the next "opportunity".
     
  4. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User
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    Very nice clock Petevig, looks in great shape despite the moves.
     
  5. tarant

    tarant Registered User
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    #355 tarant, Jun 8, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 31, 2017
    It'll be nice to see this clock, with the photos of the movement, mounting bracket in this thread:

    https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?103557-Post-Your-Gebrüder-Resch-clocks-here

    The SN is 54190 or there's 100000 (or 200000) above stamped on the back plate of the movement ?
     
  6. petevig

    petevig Registered User

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    tarant,
    the serial number(s) are 54190, three places, back plate of movement, brass hook on pendulum rod and on mounting plate, no 100000 or 200000 series numbers.
    IMG_3132.jpg IMG_3133.jpg IMG_3141.jpg IMG_3146.jpg
     
  7. tarant

    tarant Registered User
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    Very nice GR, made about 1870.
     
  8. jhe.1973

    jhe.1973 Registered User
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    #358 jhe.1973, Jul 23, 2014
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2014
    Hi Everyone,

    So,…….. Here’s my story and I’m sticking to it!

    I was at a recent Regional and they had an auction to dispose of the remains of a large collection. This case was under a table and I am sure that I recognized it (I’ve been saving photos of my favorite single weight Viennas).

    1.JPG

    I am sure that I have seen a clock with this case with a long running movement and piecrust bezel. But at my age and senility who knows!

    However, w/o any input from me, another person who was at the regional was told by a friend that he recognized this case, having seen it many years ago in this person’s collection. This other person mentioned that it had a 45-day movement w/piecrust bezel.

    Now my curiosity is WAY up because I would like to find any information about how this clock looked originally – or who the other senile person is (perhaps he chewed through his restraints also).

    :eek:

    It seems to me that this was an expensive clock in its day ‘cuz attention was paid to matching the veneer on the door with the back as well as the inside of the top.

    The case is 15 inches wide at the top by 38 inches tall. The top is 6-3/4 inches deep but the cabinet is only 5-3/4 deep the front of the columns. The cabinet is 12 inches wide from the outside of both columns.

    2.JPG

    I’m also curious about the purpose for 29 holes in the back. It is obvious that it likely had the ornate, cast brackets to mount the movement, but did they also have the large (1/2 inch dia.) holes to help secure the clock to the wall?

    3.JPG

    The top:

    4.jpg

    and bottom are quite cupped, the bottom being worse:

    5.jpg

    Did they use four round head screws, visible in the last photo, to secure the sides to the bottom, or are they an addition?

    And finally, it looks like this had two top finials and a small central pediment. Sound right?

    6.jpg

    This case needs a LOT of work, but it still seems worth saving. Any help would be appreciated.

    There is no rush ‘cuz I don’t really need another retirement project, but if I get loose again………………………

    Gotta run, I hear them in the hall at the cell next to mine!

    Whew,………………. it’s OK they just slid the gruel under the door.

    :whistle:
     
  9. vernon39426

    vernon39426 Registered User

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    Here is my only Weight Driven Vienna Regulator. I bought this clock when I was station in England in 1975. Love this clock.



    IMG_0741.jpg
     
  10. Jon Lester

    Jon Lester Registered User
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    I recently won this regulator at auction. The movement is marked 44115. The case is 40" tall. There are 3 holes on top and one on the bottom where finials probably fit in. Old wavy glass in front and sides. Any ideas on the maker would be appreciated.

    Thanks, Jon
     

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  11. tarant

    tarant Registered User
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    Clock was made in Freiburg. This is Germania or H. Endler - photos of the back plate and anchor may explain this.
     
  12. Sooth

    Sooth Registered User
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    I can't help you ID the maker, but this is a fairly typical "shape", and these usually have nice finials that go from very wide to very thin, with a wider half finial at the base. I would say it's between 1860-1890.
     
  13. leeinv66

    leeinv66 Moderator
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    Wouldn't the movement have a trademark if it was from either of these makers? I have also seen identical cases to this fitted with GB movements.
     
  14. tarant

    tarant Registered User
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    Without trademark, with the SN 44115? Unsigned Becker is almost impossible. Almost ;)
     
  15. leeinv66

    leeinv66 Moderator
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    I wasn't saying this movement was a Becker Piotr. I am saying Becker used the same case. I am wondering how the movement could be identified as a Germania or H. Endler without it being signed:???:
     
  16. tarant

    tarant Registered User
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    That's one of the most popular cases from 70-80' from Freiburg :)
    Why not Becker? Too high SN. Why Endler or Germania? Only they were producing unsigned movements with SN near this in those days.
     
  17. leeinv66

    leeinv66 Moderator
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    Thank you Piotr! The serial number information you supply is new to me. Is this documented anywhere?
     
  18. John Hubby

    John Hubby Senior Administrator Emeritus
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    #368 John Hubby, Mar 22, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 31, 2017
    Jon, As Piotr has requested we really need to see a photo of the back of the movement and also the movement top and sides. Makers from Frieburg "did" have similar appearing movements, however there are key differences that can usually be seen from good photos. A number of clocks have been identified based on such differences.

    Peter, our data show that Endler did not use a logo stamp on any of their movements prior to 1877 when the one we are familiar with was registered.. That coincides with serial numbers starting about 60000 and up to a total of about 165,000 made from their founding in May 1865 to their bankruptcy in 1893 and final production early 1895.

    In the instance of Germania, they made a number (more than half?) of their movements in the serial number range of about 34000 to 170000 with no logo stamp. This covers the years 1878 to 1890; they were in business from 1871 to 1899 (merged with GB et al).

    In both instances the serial number of the clock in question falls within the time line that movements were being made with no logo stamp.

    I agree with Piotr that virtually no GB clock was made without at least a logo stamp. The only ones found so far without a logo 'did' have serial numbers, first being the earliest GB clocks from 1847-1850 (some of these have the name); second being two batches of movements made by GB for Andreas Huber in 1922-23.

    I agree with you that GB also used cases virtually identical to this one, as did both of the two other companies being discussed. Piotr is correct with his info to the best of my personal knowledge and information, all the evidence collected to date shows the other Freiburg makers all stamped all their movements with a name or logo and a serial number. This includes Böhm, Concordia, GB, Kappler, Urania, and Willmann.

    SO, we need to see how to tell the difference between Endler and Germania for those movements with no serial number. For both the time-only and time-strike movements, the following components have been used for comparison: Hands, anchor bridge,, pendulum crutch, escapement anchor, pivot eccentric adjustment (usually on the fly arbor for time-strike models), etc. Seeing these side by side with movements having a logo stamp can show identifiable differences. In a few instances there have been name stamps on the back of cases, model numbers, and the like. These provide support for a given identification. At the end of the day, it isn't easy to be really certain about an identification of a movement with no name or logo, but there "are" plenty of examples that would lead to a certainty that the right maker has been identified.
     
  19. leeinv66

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    #369 leeinv66, Mar 22, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 22, 2015
    John, thank you for your detailed reply. Over the years I have seen many Vienna movements posted on this message board that while unsigned, bore serial numbers. Mostly, those movements were left unidentified. This is the first time I have read there is a known serial number range to identify none stamped Germania and H. Endler movements. When I read something new, I want to know where that information came from. I apologise if I am going over ground you and Piotr feel has been covered previously. I am still trying to fully understand this new (to me) information.

    P.S
    I have an both an Endler and a Germania single weight here if needed for a comparison.
     
  20. John Hubby

    John Hubby Senior Administrator Emeritus
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    #370 John Hubby, Mar 23, 2015
    Last edited: Mar 23, 2015
    Peter, the info for Endler and Germania came about as an adjunct to my in-depth study of Gustav Becker clocks. There were a number of clocks that were being confused with Beckers including both of these, Willmann, and Concordia. To be able to separate the differences I started compiling database info for Concordia, Endler, Germania, Kappel, Urania, and Willmann. These were the only ones so far that enough examples have been documented I could start considering serial number dating. Founding and closing dates I obtained from the Lexikon, as well as other pertinent operations info such as trademark dates, logos, bankruptcies, etc. Mikrolisk has been very useful. Have also found a number of dated trade adverts and a few patents, a few service dates, and some dated presentation plaques. The BIG problem with all these makers has been to find enough clocks covering the complete operating time of the companies to make any kind of sense from a serial number dating standpoint. As of right now, I have reasonably good coverage for Concordia, Germania, and Willmann. For Endler I have good coverage from the time they introduced their logo and up to their bankruptcy (1877 to 1893-5) but very little confirmed info between 1871 and 1877. I also must mention our Polish friends in the KMZIZ group are pursuing these same makers and have compiled some excellent info for the Becker "family" including these makers.

    None of the others are yet at a point to make any projections. Too few examples documented and the gaps are too big.

    Now to the "unlabeled" Endlers and Germanias.

    For Endler, there is a problem in that evidently none of their clocks made from 1871 to the introduction of their logo are specifically identified. What we "do" have are three unlabeled clocks that have all the characteristics of the same movement designs and other features as similar movements made after 1877. The lowest serial number is 10895, next is 34411, and next is 50457. These "do" cover the serial number range needed but are far from being conclusive, what is really needed are a few clocks in this range (1 to 60000) that have some really conclusive evidence of being made by Endler such as a label on the back of the case, a trade advert with an "identical" clock, something with service dates, or the like. This of course will take some time to obtain.

    For Germania we are in much better shape. There is good coverage for labeled examples all the way from the first year of production up to their merger in 1899. What we have found is that in the serial number range of 34000 to 170000 we have encountered a number of clocks with "identical" characteristics as labeled Germania clocks made in this same serial number range, that we could not ignore the possibility that Germania made unlabeled clocks (movements, etc) for the trade. We have found that Germania, like Willmann, used unique design hands for their clocks. Germania started with what I have labeled a spectacle (eyeglass) design used from 1872 to 1885, then changed to a more elaborate design that was used for the next 11 years to 1896, then changing to a more standard design up to the time of the merger. Here are the hands:

    80918 Dial.jpg 194963 Dial.jpg 254592 Dial.jpg

    The first set of hands to the left cover from 1872-1885, the more elaborate second set from 1886 to 1896, and the third set 1897 to 1899. The first and second designs cover the range of serial numbers in which we have found unlabeled clocks that we have decided are actually made by Germania (1878 to 1890)

    What we can do for Germania clocks is to compare unlabeled vs labeled for clocks in close proximity by serial number, and of the same movement design. This is possible since we now have enough examples to be able to make that comparison. What we find is the identical dial and hands, identical anchor pivot bridges, identical pendulum crutch designs, identical pallet anchor designs, and identical train layout designs. We also compare movement support brackets when photos are available and those will also match when the rest of the details match.

    The clock in question appears to be a Germania based on the dial and hands, the movement plate shape, and the train layout. However, I would really like to see the pallet anchor, back plate layout including the anchor arbor pivot bridge, the pendulum crutch and the movement support bracket before reaching a firm conclusion.

    As a final note I would emphasize we make the same type of comparison with known Endler movements, but unfortunately don't have anything in the lower end serial number range to be able to do a true "side-by-side" comparison.
     
  21. tarant

    tarant Registered User
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    There are also miniature Germania and Endler clocks. Germania used in miniature clocks hands identical to Becker. Miniature Germania is second from the right, the first - H. Endler (in 90% - both unsigned).
    2014-12-16-837 [1280x768].jpg
     
  22. Jon Lester

    Jon Lester Registered User
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    #372 Jon Lester, Mar 23, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Mar 23, 2015
    Re: single weight regulator

    6.jpg 8.jpg 7.jpg

    Hi Peter,

    Other than the same numbers as on the front, there is writing that looks like "1/96 L12,08".

    Thanks, Jon
     
  23. leeinv66

    leeinv66 Moderator
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    Thank you John for outlining the research you have conducted into these makers. This is exactly the sort of information I was craving. I am inquisitive by nature, so when presented with new conclusions, I am always going to want to know from where those conclusions were drawn or how they were reached.
     
  24. tarant

    tarant Registered User
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  25. leeinv66

    leeinv66 Moderator
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    There is a second thread on this clock HERE
     
  26. Jon Lester

    Jon Lester Registered User
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    Thank you everyone for the information. This is exactly what I was hoping to learn.

    Best regards, Jon Lester
     
  27. tarant

    tarant Registered User
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    Serpentine dwarf, unsigned.

    2015-07-21-1040.jpg
     
  28. shimmystep

    shimmystep Registered User

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    Very attractive Piotr. On my 'hit list' for upstairs
     
  29. tarant

    tarant Registered User
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    These time only movements are wonderful. Simple as possible, but done and working well.
    2015-07-19-1027.jpg 2015-07-19-1030.jpg 2015-07-19-1035.jpg

    And painted (oil, not porcelain) pendulum scala (notice blue edges)
    2015-07-19-1018.jpg

    Hand cutted hands:

    skanowanie0006.jpg skanowanie0005.jpg
     
  30. leeinv66

    leeinv66 Moderator
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    This would seem to be quite an early example of a bantam size clock Piotr. What is your feeling on its age?
     
  31. Oled

    Oled Registered User

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    Hi Colleagues!

    Another early post-biedermeier Vienna bantam clock, this time from Russia. A rare bird for our latitude, and condition is extra fine and untouched.

    BR,
    Oleg min3.jpg min1.jpg min4.jpg min6.jpg min8.jpg min9.jpg min10.jpg
     
  32. leeinv66

    leeinv66 Moderator
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    That is a very fine Bantam Oleg! Very nice indeed!
     
  33. tarant

    tarant Registered User
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    The bottom of the case is unique. Could you show the pendulum bob and the weight? This clock was made in late 40 or 50', I think.
     
  34. Oled

    Oled Registered User

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    Hi Piotr, this clock belongs to our local board member, so that's the only additional photos I have, hope this helps. Actually they are located in Kaliningrad, not far from you, so you can even see them in person or posess if interested :rolleyes:

    5548942238.jpg 5548942238_1.jpg 5548942238_2.jpg 5548942238_3.jpg
     
  35. jhe.1973

    jhe.1973 Registered User
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    #385 jhe.1973, Dec 29, 2015
    Last edited: Dec 29, 2015
    Hi Everyone,

    I recently traded a project clock that was going be a lot of work for a regulator that won't be as time consuming. It is a marriage of a movement & dial, a pendulum, and case. All bought separately and put together by the former owner. I have no problem with any of this 'cuz he never tried to hide anything. It allows me to feel free to come up with whatever I choose.

    While in Belgium, the owner bought the movement/dial assembly from one source and the cabinet from another. The pendulum came from eBay.

    Here it is after I made a larger bob (from 6 in. to 8.5 in.) and cleaned up the dial quite a bit:

    DSC_1425.JPG

    I wanted a larger bob so I could keep the center of mass lower by spreading the weight across a wider area on its bottom. The pendulum clears the bottom of the case by less than 1/2 inch.

    The cabinet is just a box w/solid sides. It is all walnut, even the back, but my biggest curiosity is the movement. It has a seconds pendulum, high numbered pinions, a sweep second hand and will run just over 9 days on 2 lbs. 12 ozs. w/only 33 inches of weight drop.

    DSC_1489.JPG

    DSC_1488.JPG

    I had to modify the top brass part of the pendulum quite a lot to get it to work out properly. It now seems to keep time quite well.

    DSC_1490.JPG

    I would appreciate any suggestions as to age/period, and/or maker.

    I realize that this probably a long shot, but it would be nice to find out more about it.

    The proportions of the dial to pendulum would possibly work out well for a Laterndluhr style cabinet.

    Thanks in advance for any guidance you can provide!

    :thumb:

    DSC_1425.JPG DSC_1489.JPG DSC_1488.JPG DSC_1490.JPG
     
    Tatyana likes this.
  36. Sooth

    Sooth Registered User
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    I was also thinking (as I was reading your post) that it would work well in a Laterndluhr case, but the dial and hands don't quite lend themselves quite as well to that style. The dial and hands more closely suit the look of a Jeweler's regulator. The mounting bracket is also all-wrong for a Laterndluhr. It was likely in some type of jeweler's regulator, or perhaps a long/tall Vienna case. The construction seems to indicate "somewhat early" and "somewhat late" features. Early: the inverted chalice (or wishbone) style anchor. Late: Adjustable pallets on said anchor, and the cast brass bracket (which almost has an Art Nouveau style ca. 1900s). Other late features are the bent-brass back bridge (rather than cast and shaped), and the use of screws/washers to fasten the plates together. I would hazard an educated guess at around 1870-1880.

    I would probably keep it either in the same case, or in a similar one. The only problem with the current case is that it doesn't "hug" the dial sufficiently. These high-end movements usually had very tight fitting cases with little clearance, so you wouldn't have about an inch of dead space on either side of the dial. You don't mention if you're planning to build a new case, modify the existing case, or make hire someone to build a new one from scratch.
     
  37. jhe.1973

    jhe.1973 Registered User
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    HI Sooth,

    Thank you for your taking the time to read and respond to my request. I also want to thank you for breaking down the pronunciation of Laterndluhr (Lat-turn-dul-er) on your blog. This too is a help 'cuz I have had a difficult time figuring out just how to pronounce the term.

    I am kicking around the possibility of adding a top and bottom to the case but because it has no glass in the sides I may decide to make a case from scratch. Also, this cabinet is built more like a furniture item than most clock cases. The door is inset to the sides w/hinges protruding in front rather than the entire front opening up w/the hinges sticking out on one side.

    Another detail about this case is that it really is too short. Cannot mount a beat scale below the bob and this was worse with the smaller bob. If I was to center the weight mass in the new bob, I would have to lengthen the pendulum quite a bit and this case won't allow that.

    I REALLY appreciate your input as to various details as I have virtually no experience w/Viennas. I would have guessed that this one was newer. Your observation about the hand style (jeweler's regulator) sounds right on. :bang: Why didn't I think of that!

    I have always liked the clean simplicity of most of the single weight Viennas I have seen. My budget, however, won't allow me to run out and buy my favorites, i.e. Laterndluhrs.

    Awhile back I posted in this thread (post #358) showing a Vienna case I had just obtained.

    1.JPG

    As I am writing this, the thought just occurred to me that this previous case might work out as the trunk for a tall enough cabinet for the 'new' movement & pendulum.

    Soooo, I've got a bunch of ideas to play around with but at least I have a running clock that is better to look at than the one it replaces.

    And, I'm in no hurry.

    Thanks once again and I hope that others can add to this.
     
  38. Sooth

    Sooth Registered User
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  39. jhe.1973

    jhe.1973 Registered User
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    Thanks for the suggestion Sooth!

    I've been there - esp. when I feel like drooling. I've saved a few photos of certain ones and many of his examples are what I had in mind.

    Great minds really do think alike, right?

    :thumb:
     
  40. tarant

    tarant Registered User
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    Miniature (30,3 ", dial 5,7") made by Johann Franke in Teschen.
    2015-12-15-1133.jpg 2015-12-22-1140.jpg
     
  41. kdf

    kdf Registered User

    Aug 26, 2011
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    Here is one movement, which probably belonged to a miniatur Vienna regulator. Dial diameter is 5,25" (134mm), trapezoidal plates 2,5"/2,25" x 3,25" (63/58 x 84 mm). Plates are 0,06" (front) and 0,08" (back) thick (1,6 and 2mm). Serial no. is 2168. Cable drum diameter is 0,41" (10,5mm) and it's plain, without cable leading thread.
    Does some recognise maker, or possible date of manufacture of this interesting little movement? What should be typical weight for this type of movements?


    Thanks in advance.
    IMG_6184.jpg IMG_6185.JPG IMG_6187.JPG IMG_6191.jpg IMG_6197.JPG IMG_6199.JPG IMG_6200.JPG IMG_6205.JPG IMG_6207.JPG IMG_6210.JPG
     
  42. leeinv66

    leeinv66 Moderator
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    #392 leeinv66, Jan 10, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 31, 2017
    A nice little movement! I would bet on it being made by Gebrüder Resch.
     
  43. kdf

    kdf Registered User

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    I thought so, but there are some differencies (upper part of plate is not curved, hands and beat adjuster are different...)
     
  44. leeinv66

    leeinv66 Moderator
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    #394 leeinv66, Jan 11, 2016
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 31, 2017
    No, I think you are kdf. It looks like I jumped the gun. I can see that the train has a different lay out as well now I've put my glasses on. Have a look at post #71 in this thread that shows the two Resch mini movements I own: Click Here
     
  45. tarant

    tarant Registered User
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    Indeed. This is not Resch. Similar, but not Resch.
     
  46. Heli

    Heli Registered User

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    I think it is Gronemann

    Regards
    Mariusz
     
  47. kdf

    kdf Registered User

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    Thanks to all.
     
  48. zdaigi

    zdaigi New Member

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    Hello gentlemen,

    recently I got this clock from my father. I cleaned them, repaired them and they are working well now. I was wondering what they are so I started looking. Alas, I wasn't able to find much. I only found that they should be "Remember" Vienna Regulators clock. But I have no idea where they came from or how old they are. They have 2 weights and strike at full hour and also at half-hour. Pendulum and dial are made of brass and pendulum rod is wooden.
    I will be very grateul if you cold tell me anything about them.

    Thank you in advance.
     

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  49. tarant

    tarant Registered User
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    Indeed, this clock was made by Gebruder Resch in Ebensee, shortly (not more than 5 years) before the year 1901.
     
  50. zdaigi

    zdaigi New Member

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    Thank you very much. I was really curious.
     

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