Post your WEIGHT driven Vienna here

Discussion in 'General Clock Discussions' started by Scottie-TX, Sep 24, 2009.

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  1. Richard Watson

    Richard Watson New Member

    Apr 11, 2018
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    My only Vienna regulator. The movement is marked Uhrenfabrik Borussia Freiburg. This is a monster, 56" top to bottom.

    IMG_2115.JPG
     
  2. new2clocks

    new2clocks Registered User
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  3. John Hubby

    John Hubby Senior Administrator Emeritus
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    #453 John Hubby, May 6, 2018
    Last edited: May 6, 2018
    Richard, welcome to the NAWCC Message Board! Thanks for posting the photo of your clock and that it was made by Borussia. Borussia was founded in Freiburg, Silesia on October 1, 1888 and later (according to information published in Hans-Heinrich Schmid's "Lexikon") merged with Gustav Becker and other Freiburg makers to become Vereinigte Freiburger Uhrenfabriken inkl. vorm. Gustav Becker (VFU) in 1899.

    Your clock would have been made sometime during that period, quite possibly during the early years before they registered a logo since you mention that the movement is stamped "Uhrenfabrik Borussia Freiburg". It will be appreciated if you could post photos of the back of the movement showing the full back including the upper suspension, pendulum leader, name stamp, and serial number. Other photos of the movement as well as the movement mounting bracket and gong and a close-up of the dial will be appreciated so a full documentation can be made. With that info we can provide a reasonably close estimate of the actual year your clock was made.
     
  4. Steve Murphy

    Steve Murphy Registered User

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    Three of mine, the left with double weight is a 60 day runner.
    3viennas.JPG
     
  5. leeinv66

    leeinv66 Moderator
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    Nice collection Steve!
     
  6. new2clocks

    new2clocks Registered User
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    I echo Peter's sentiments!

    Can you identify the maker of any of those Viennas?

    Regards.
     
  7. tarant

    tarant Registered User
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    Mini between and over (borrowed wall hook ;) ) two dwarfs.

    20171207_161242.jpg
     
  8. leeinv66

    leeinv66 Moderator
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    And time only the way all Viennas should be Piotr ;) Nice clocks!
     
  9. ClockWiseXII

    ClockWiseXII Registered User

    May 17, 2018
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    Dear John, you must be wrong:

    The "Lexikon" (3rd edition 2017) says that the "Borussia" was closed around 1896 and was not involved in the merger with Gustav Becker and other Silesian companies. Because Hans-Heinrich Schmid refers to the official communications on the merger; his information in the "Lexikon" are therefore reliable.

    Regards.

    ClockWise
     
  10. tarant

    tarant Registered User
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    Here are articles from Deutsche Uhrmacher Zeitung from the year 1899 about VFU. Indeed, there's no Borussia.

    Obraz 3.jpg Obraz 4.jpg
     
  11. new2clocks

    new2clocks Registered User
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    Piotr,

    It seems as if the DUZ was a clockmaker's trade journal as opposed to being some type of government organization that would have recorded the actual merger of the companies.

    Is this a correct statement?

    Regards.
     
  12. tarant

    tarant Registered User
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    Maybe. But all government official archives from these lands were destroyed during and shortly after World War II :(
     
  13. new2clocks

    new2clocks Registered User
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    Thank you, Piotr.

    I assumed that the DUZ was not an official government agency, as the attachments you provided did not refer to the merging parties by their legal entity names except for the resulting company (post-merger) as being an Aktiengesellschaft ("AG").

    Regards.
     
  14. new2clocks

    new2clocks Registered User
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    So, getting back to "Borussia", do we know (1) who their owners were (presumably individuals) or (2) what their legal entity form was (AG or GmbH) at the time of either their dissolution or the formation of VFU?

    Regards.
     
  15. John Hubby

    John Hubby Senior Administrator Emeritus
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    For info, I've received my third edition of the "Lexikon" since I made the earlier post, and have reviewed the Borussia entry quite thoroughly. What is now there reflects discussions held by Hans-Heinrich and Doug Stevenson very shortly before Doug passed away, that indicate there is no conclusive evidence either that Borussia closed in 1896 or that it was not included in the merger with Gustav Becker. Both Hans-Heinrich and Doug Stevenson clearly said here (and off-list) that the merger records were at best a mixed bag. Among other things, that was due to their changing the name of the merged company at least two times in the first year or so. The Willmann confusion, the question of how (or whether) the facilities of the bankrupt H. Endler & Co. were included, etc., still leave questions unanswered about the merger. Some clarity could eventually come from research into the actual clocks made by Borussia, which can determine how many were made and provide other information that could show (or not) how long they were in business. The main problem at this point is finding more examples, they seem to be few and far between.

    Regarding Borussia the firm, no names are mentioned in the Lexikon. It states there that Borussia was a "eingetragene Genossenschaft mit unbegrenzter Haftpflicht" (Registered cooperative with unlimited liability), such as were Regulatorfabrik Germania.

    More work to do!!
     
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  16. new2clocks

    new2clocks Registered User
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    Thanks, John.

    To the best of your knowledge, were the referenced merger records corporate or governmental documentation, or were they more anecdotal, such as from DUZ or other similar publications?

    Regards.
     
  17. John Hubby

    John Hubby Senior Administrator Emeritus
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    As I recall it included both governmental and public material. The DUZ and AGU have a number of articles by different authors, both leading up to and following the merger, that tell somewhat differing stories. There are also the city records, the adressbuch, the annual almanacs, and the like.

    I've done some research into other company events such as bankruptcies and the information published at the time is many times conflicting. One thing that seems to be assumed by quite a few is that when bankruptcy was declared the business was immediately shut down and employees let go, etc. Actually not the case in many instances, some companies continued to operate (like a Chapter 11 bankruptcy in the U.S. today) while new financing was organized, etc. That is what happened in the first Schnekenburger bankruptcy (1896) that was largely financed by the Müller brothers after Wilhelm Köhler and J. Christian Bauer pulled out in late 1895. The second one (1900) the Müllers took over completely and the company became Uhrenfabrik Mühlheim Müller & Co.; from the serial number research I've done it appears there was very little loss of production during either of those events. Production for that company seems to have been more influenced by market conditions than anything else.
     
  18. Tatyana

    Tatyana Registered User

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    I suppose I found the producer of this movement.
    There is a close serial number in my database, this movement is done before WWI by Muller-Schlenker.

    6e1a17a4479087f32209d6d31c7e.jpg 32817388460486d9d162fd164055.jpg b38c2ce04de0bf196dec7501f14b.jpg d4d671134205bf218e18c5f4915e.jpg 6046639449819017349482382ccb.jpg

    BR, Tatyana
     
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  19. jhe.1973

    jhe.1973 Registered User
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    Thank you so much for responding with your information. I have often thought the dial would look so much better if it was slivered. It appears that the one you have shown has just such a dial.

    Since my posting (#385) this clock has kept terrific time staying within two or three seconds each month. As I recall, all the pinions are high numbered (over 12 IIRC).
     
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  20. Tatyana

    Tatyana Registered User

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    I found another movement Muller-Schlenker, the hands are the same:

    1.jpg 2.jpg 3.jpg

    BR, Tatyana
     
  21. Tatyana

    Tatyana Registered User

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