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whatgoesaround

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Re: adjustable pallet escapement

Just how "not too difficult?" It would definitely be a useful skill.
 

harold bain

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Re: adjustable pallet escapement

The easiest way is if you have a scrap box of old clock wheels, and find one with the same size and profile of tooth, you can splice a patch into your wheel using a piece of the scrap wheel. Using a keystone shape, it will be as strong as it originally was. A little solder will lock it in. Without a donor wheel, the process is similar, but you will have to file a tooth on the patch to match the other teeth on the wheel. A jewelers saw and a steady hand is needed for the cutting, and small files for the finishing.
 

marylander

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Re: adjustable pallet escapement

What are the advantages of adjustable pallet escapement in comparison with fixed pallet escapement? There must be a reason some many companies used adjustable pallet escapement in their clocks.
Ming
 

whatgoesaround

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Re: adjustable pallet escapement

WGA, I'll answer your question about adjustable pallets in my next post. First, however, I would like to ask if you would post photos of your clock here so we can document it for our W. Würth & Co. database. I believe you meant to type in Plate 1009AA (there is no 1099AA), and that backplate has been positively identified to be made by Würth & Co. My data indicate it was probably made about 1907, a bit later than shown in the Repair Guide. The serial number of your clock is only 17 digits later than the plate shown there. I'm guessing the clock is likely a 4-glass crystal regulator style or one of the other fancy case Bowler & Burdick cases. I will look forward to seeing the photos.
I hope this is sufficient, since the clock is currently apart; if not then I will post again when all is repaired and running. The running part is hopeful.
 

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whatgoesaround

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Re: adjustable pallet escapement

The easiest way is if you have a scrap box of old clock wheels, and find one with the same size and profile of tooth, you can splice a patch into your wheel using a piece of the scrap wheel. Using a keystone shape, it will be as strong as it originally was. A little solder will lock it in. Without a donor wheel, the process is similar, but you will have to file a tooth on the patch to match the other teeth on the wheel. A jewelers saw and a steady hand is needed for the cutting, and small files for the finishing.
Sounds feasible, but I think I would need to tool up, to have a supply of old wheels of many types, and practice before I ever got it right. For as often as I need it, which if I do what I did last time may be more than I am thinking, it would probably better to leave it to people with more skills than I. I do envy your ability.
 

whatgoesaround

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Re: adjustable pallet escapement

What are the advantages of adjustable pallet escapement in comparison with fixed pallet escapement? There must be a reason some many companies used adjustable pallet escapement in their clocks.
Ming
There are obviously more informed people than I on this forum, but if I had to guess the advantage is to the manufacturer. It would allow lower tolerances on precision and it could be made up for by adjusting the pallets. However, for anyone else, it is just something else that could introduce a problem. Or maybe the one part could be adjusted and used on diffreent clocks?
 

marylander

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Re: adjustable pallet escapement

There are obviously more informed people than I on this forum, but if I had to guess the advantage is to the manufacturer. It would allow lower tolerances on precision and it could be made up for by adjusting the pallets. However, for anyone else, it is just something else that could introduce a problem. Or maybe the one part could be adjusted and used on diffreent clocks?
Thank you for your explaination. Indeed, the adjust pallet anchor can make clock run more precisely if adjusted correctly. I wonder if the manufacturer adjusted the pallet on each clock after assembly. If they only adjusted them with a predetermined length before the assembling, then why not used fixed pallet anchor. Could it be a repairer friendly feature for later service?
Ming
 

whatgoesaround

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Re: adjustable pallet escapement

Just had to add that I finally have it running after years after getting a new gear from Horolovar. Mr. Ellis told me that he felt lucky to have this particular one. It has been quite a battle. I found more teeth needing straightening on the escapement wheel and even on the mainspring gear. I adjusted the eccentric nut so many times, I just about gave up. Finally after trying everything I wondered if the anchor pin had been moved, since I could see that it was possible. I got the eccentric nut the best I could and tried adjusting the anchor pin and that finally got it going. It is only doing about 125 degrees, but I have worked for so long on this clock that I don't want to do anything that could change the fact that it has been going for about three hours now. I don't know if anyone has had a clock beat them down for so long as this one has done to me, but I am elated!
 

doug sinclair

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Re: adjustable pallet escapement

It's good that you have it running. Repairing mainspring barrels in these exposed movements should be done in such a way that the repair doesn't show. You've solved that by replacing rather than repairing. However, in an instance when a replacement barrel cannot be found, an invisible repair can be done. I have enclosed an image of a barrel that I repaired as a project, a number of years ago. It was a scrap barrel that I took three teeth out of. The procedure I used was much as described by Harold Bain, earlier on. I have used the same technique in repairing the barrels of many crystal regulator and 400-day clocks over the years since then. Plus any other, less exposed barrels that I have repaired. I have posted this image on the clock repair board before, and one poster was actually able to identify where I repaired it. Care to try?
 

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whatgoesaround

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Re: adjustable pallet escapement

It's good that you have it running. Repairing mainspring barrels in these exposed movements should be done in such a way that the repair doesn't show. You've solved that by replacing rather than repairing. However, in an instance when a replacement barrel cannot be found, an invisible repair can be done. I have enclosed an image of a barrel that I repaired as a project, a number of years ago. It was a scrap barrel that I took three teeth out of. The procedure I used was much as described by Harold Bain, earlier on. I have used the same technique in repairing the barrels of many crystal regulator and 400-day clocks over the years since then. Plus any other, less exposed barrels that I have repaired. I have posted this image on the clock repair board before, and one poster was actually able to identify where I repaired it. Care to try?
Actually, replaced another gear, which I messed up trying to repair, and bent the teeth back to position successfully on the main barrel and other gears. On your work, I would GUESS at the 3 o'clock position? Even if that is correct, which I honestly am not sure about, I had to really stare at it for some time and again, I am guessing. The short story would be: Wow! nice work!
 

doug sinclair

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Re: adjustable pallet escapement

Actually, the repair is near the 10:00 position where the valleys between the teeth are square. The difference was due to the profile of my gear cutter being a bit different.
 

whatgoesaround

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Re: adjustable pallet escapement

Doug, now that you point it out, I see it, but excellent work!

Well, my elation has turned to deflation. Shortly after the post on it running for 3 hours, I decided to set the time. It stopped, and when I restarted it, it ran for about two hours. Then, on repeated stops and starts it ran less and less over time until now it will run for about 30 minutes or so. Here is the conundrum: I will start it out where the escapement trips with the just barley enough rotation on both sides. I can watch the amount of rotation build as it starts going. Then, I come back and it has stopped. I guess, I am going to have to disassemble it yet again and see if there is anything I missed on the gears. Problem is, as I noted earlier, the eccentric nut will pop out on reassembly very easily, although it does hold tight once in. Anyone have suggestions?
 

Ken M

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Re: adjustable pallet escapement

I have a tendency to forget to wind 'em after reassembly, they don't run long:D
 

doug sinclair

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Re: adjustable pallet escapement

Consdering the bent teeth in the mainspring barrel, and other damaged gears as well, the mainspring had either broken or come unhooked, or the clock had experienced an accident duting winding some time in the past. This can cause the barrel to bulge at the hook in the barrel wall. If this has happened, and if it is bad enough, the bulge could be catching on the arbor of the second wheel. At any time, have you checked for bent pivots? Have you tried running the clock with the dial train off? On occasion, there can be problems with the cannon pinion tension spring being incorrect, and dragging on the front plate. After the clock stops, and upon attempting to start it again, does the escape wheel advance, or does it remain where it is? There might be a sign of binding in the train, somewhere. I have found that letting the power down and removing the anchor, then winding the spring just enough to get the train turning, can assist in identifying problems in the train.
 

whatgoesaround

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Re: adjustable pallet escapement

Consdering the bent teeth in the mainspring barrel, and other damaged gears as well, the mainspring had either broken or come unhooked, or the clock had experienced an accident duting winding some time in the past. This can cause the barrel to bulge at the hook in the barrel wall. If this has happened, and if it is bad enough, the bulge could be catching on the arbor of the second wheel. At any time, have you checked for bent pivots? Have you tried running the clock with the dial train off? On occasion, there can be problems with the cannon pinion tension spring being incorrect, and dragging on the front plate. After the clock stops, and upon attempting to start it again, does the escape wheel advance, or does it remain where it is? There might be a sign of binding in the train, somewhere. I have found that letting the power down and removing the anchor, then winding the spring just enough to get the train turning, can assist in identifying problems in the train.
I had tried a number of the things you suggested, but this is a great list that I think I will copy out for future reference! You are right about the mainspring coming loose, when I first got this clock a few years back, it was the first clock I ever took apart and I found the mainspring was loose and reattached it. I had tried running it at only three clicks when I first reassembled it a couple of days ago with the new gear without the escapement and it seemed to run okay. Checked gears and pivots. Today, however, exactly what you told me to check actually happened. I moved the anchor out of the way when it had stopped and it was extremely sluggish. To make a long story short, or is that too late?, I opened up the mainspring cover, because I could think of nothing else, and I think I found my problem. I thought I had replaced the mainspring a long time ago, when I was first tryig to fix this; apparently I was wrong. It does not look round (I don't know how else to explain it) at the central portion. Maybe this would account for the small rotation, too? Anyhow, I feel pretty stupid, but another mistake to learn from. I am just about to order a spring from TImesavers. Maybe one day I will see this clock run again. Thanks for the help.
 

whatgoesaround

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Re: adjustable pallet escapement

Okay, just to prove I don't know what I am doing; of course, I am sure there are some of you who already know that. I started to take the spring out and figured the spring WAS new. Of course, after I had already ordered a new one from TImeSavers. Reassembled it and changed the position of the eccentric nut. No good. Put it back where I had it and it has been running for two hours now with the hands and their gears off. Does it make any difference which way tension spring goes? Should the middle portion touch the front on the gears with the two sides out or vice versa with the middle against the plate? Anything I should look for, since this area must be where the problem is? The shaft is straight. Thanks for all the help this forum supplies!
 

doug sinclair

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Re: adjustable pallet escapement

There are at least two common tension spring arrangements that I can recall. The one has the bottom end of the cannon pinion counter bored, and a coil spring fits up inside the cannon pinon. The bottom end sits on the shoulder of the centre wheel arbor (NOT on the front plate). The other type should have two washers. On, just a regulat flat washer, and the other, a curved football shape washer. On this type of clock, the curved washer goes on the centre wheel arbor first, with the cupped side facing OUT. The flat washer then goes on, then the cannon pinion. When you screw on the hand retaining nut, or press the hands down and fit a tapered pin theough a transverse hole in the centre arbor, that is when the tension from the curved spring occurs. None of these components should touch the front plate!
 

whatgoesaround

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Re: adjustable pallet escapement

There are at least two common tension spring arrangements that I can recall. The one has the bottom end of the cannon pinion counter bored, and a coil spring fits up inside the cannon pinon. The bottom end sits on the shoulder of the centre wheel arbor (NOT on the front plate). The other type should have two washers. On, just a regulat flat washer, and the other, a curved football shape washer. On this type of clock, the curved washer goes on the centre wheel arbor first, with the cupped side facing OUT. The flat washer then goes on, then the cannon pinion. When you screw on the hand retaining nut, or press the hands down and fit a tapered pin theough a transverse hole in the centre arbor, that is when the tension from the curved spring occurs. None of these components should touch the front plate!
Thanks for the help with the tension washers, Doug. I let the clock run all night long without the hands and gears to that train. I read your post and this one has the second type you described, but there is only the one football shaped washer. I tried to find a way to assemble it without the washer touching the plate, but I can not find a way. It will only fit on one end of the pinion or the other, due to size. So, I followed the directions about pointing the curve to the outside and reassembled. It has been running for 5.5 hours now! ALthough it is nothing to brag about, I am getting about 150 degrees of rotation. It is an improvement from earlier; all things considered, it has been a good day!
 

doug sinclair

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Re: adjustable pallet escapement

These came from the factory with a plain steel washer slightly larger in diameter than the pinion, and slightly larger that the major dimension of the cupped tension spring. The hole in the tension spring is smaller than the shoulder of the centre arbor so that the cupped washer sits on that shoulder without touching the plate The tips of the cupped washer bear on the steel washer which in turn bears on the bottom of the pinion. When the hands are put on and the cupped brass washer fitted on in front of the minute hand, the thumb screw is turned on and tightened. As this happens, the cannon pinion compresses the football shaped washer, and that is how the cannon pinion gets its friction. NOTHING must touch the front plate!
 

whatgoesaround

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Re: adjustable pallet escapement

These came from the factory with a plain steel washer slightly larger in diameter than the pinion, and slightly larger that the major dimension of the cupped tension spring. The hole in the tension spring is smaller than the shoulder of the centre arbor so that the cupped washer sits on that shoulder without touching the plate The tips of the cupped washer bear on the steel washer which in turn bears on the bottom of the pinion. When the hands are put on and the cupped brass washer fitted on in front of the minute hand, the thumb screw is turned on and tightened. As this happens, the cannon pinion compresses the football shaped washer, and that is how the cannon pinion gets its friction. NOTHING must touch the front plate!
It is running now and I hate to mess with it. However, I definitely will be back here when it stops. I do not have the flat washer, but from the way things looked with this clock, it has been messed with, so it could have been lost a long time ago. I know I kept all the parts and had none left over when it was reassembled:D. Anyhow, it is keeping time within adjustable range right now and after all I have been through I will just wait and see. I am sure you are right about it and like I said, I probably will be posting more questions for you. Thanks for all the help so far!
 

horologintex

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Help Identify 400 day Clock + Pendulum Help

As if I didn't have enough projects awaiting my attention... Unfortunately, I'm a sucker for these poor clocks that need help.

Anyway, I'm thinking this is a Kienzle with Plate 1427 and the No. 14 gimbaled suspension. I'd appreciate a concurrence or a correction from you experts.

But I also need help with details about the missing parts of the pendulum. Like how much space to allow between the gallery and the top of the disc? I've heard that there should be several thin steel washers in the hollow space of the disc - but how many, and what total weight? Pictures of a complete assembly and/or measurements would be greatly appreciated.

Also, any idea on date of manufacture? And should there be spacers/capitals on the tops of the two support columns?

Thanks!
 

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John Hubby

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Re: Help Identify 400 day Clock + Pendulum Help

Horologintex, I think your clock was actually made by W. Wurth & Co, but need a couple of details first to confirm:

1) Is there a pivot bridge screwed into the front plate for the anchor arbor pivot? It looks to be there but the dirt and rust may be hiding it.

2) Is there a serial number stamped in the bottom of the pendulum disc? Can't tell from the photo.

For info, the plate layout of your clock (Plate 1427) is identical to others that have been confirmed to be used by Wurth & Co, for example Plate 1440. The No. 14 gimbal suspension was patented by Wurth, and the headpiece in the photo below was first used by Wurth but later by Kienzle. The presence of the pallet inspection holes was originally believed to have been patented by Kienzle, but indications now are that Wurth may have been the inventor and first user. Same goes for the ring suspension guard (a word of caution is that this is not yet confirmed by actual patent findings). It may well be that Wurth licensed these to Kienzle or vice versa, since it is known that Kienzle used the gimbal suspension from about the time it was patented by Wurth. A final note, to date it appears that Kienzle movements only used the click between plates, such as shown by Plates 1431, 1435, and 1436. Also note the quite different train layout for these plates compared to Plate 1427.

I'm posting two photos to show (a) what your clock should look like when you finish restoration and (b) a side view of the same type of pendulum you have. Hope this will help.
 

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lesbradley

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Re: Help Identify 400 day Clock + Pendulum Help

As if I didn't have enough projects awaiting my attention... Unfortunately, I'm a sucker for these poor clocks that need help.

Anyway, I'm thinking this is a Kienzle with Plate 1427 and the No. 14 gimbaled suspension. I'd appreciate a concurrence or a correction from you experts.

But I also need help with details about the missing parts of the pendulum. Like how much space to allow between the gallery and the top of the disc? I've heard that there should be several thin steel washers in the hollow space of the disc - but how many, and what total weight? Pictures of a complete assembly and/or measurements would be greatly appreciated.

Also, any idea on date of manufacture? And should there be spacers/capitals on the tops of the two support columns?

Thanks!
Attached are pictures of the pendulum with my Kienzle. As you see it is somewhat different. The height of the spindle holding the gallery is 21 mm from the disk top to the gallery. I am inclined to speculate that your movement maybe a late Wilhelm Wurth with the addition of the inspection holes for the pallets. The solid disk of the pendulum also does not seem typical of Kienzle, they rarely had additional steel washers. The weight of my Kienzle pendulum is 382 gm. Hope that info helps
-> posts merged by system <-
Thankyou John my post crossed with yours. I am glad we agree on the Wurth theory.
-> posts merged by system <-
I have a spare correct finial if you are interested. May need different hole spacing in the front plate to accommodate.
 

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horologintex

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Re: Help Identify 400 day Clock + Pendulum Help

Les and John-

Thanks so much for the information on my clock. I will post some more pictures once I get it cleaned up.

John-
1-There is a pivot bridge on the front plate, but not for the anchor pivot. It is for the intermediate wheel (or minute wheel , as some call it). I'll post a picture next week.
2-Sorry to say, there is no serial number on the pendulum disc.

Thanks again!

John
 

lesbradley

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Interesting onyx four glass

Latest aquisition, but needs lots of TLC.

It is a variation of plate 1009AA, but with Made in Germany ser. no. 8364.

The guide lists manufacturer as unknown.

I am inclined to think it is a Wilhelm Wurth, partially because of the style of ratchet wheel bridge, and also that it has a type 20 pendulum.

For John's info the pendulum base is stamped DRGM and has the matching serial no. to the movement.

The movement, pendulum and brass case parts are no problem for restoration, but the onyx is in poor condition. The top has had a very major repair some time ago, and whatever was used to repair has aged badly. There are are also nibbles to the corners of the base. I think I might need expert assistance here, but time will tell.

The dial is celluloid and starting to crack. If anybody knows of a source for this type of dial it would be useful.

Will also need a replacement side glass, but I have a source for that.

Has anybody on the forum got anything similar to this? And do they know it's origins.
-> posts merged by system <-
Attachments did not stick so here they are.
 

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dutch

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Re: Interesting onyx four glass

No help for you Les but you do get some interesting clocks. This one is a beauty to my eyes.
 

lesbradley

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Re: Interesting onyx four glass

No help for you Les but you do get some interesting clocks. This one is a beauty to my eyes.
Thanks Dutch,
I have just stripped the clock and found it is a bit sad, neglected and bodged by some previous owner/repairer at this time, but I am pretty sure the restore will be worth it.
 

Ingulphus

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Re: Interesting onyx four glass

Les -

A lovely clock - an onyxpected pleasure - and any clock with Pendulum # 20 gets my heart beating slightly faster. I don't know that there's much you can do about the onyx, other than perhaps determine of the glue used for the repair is removable with acetone or water, allowing you to redo the repair. An antique conservationist could probably work wonders with epoxy, hand-tinted to match the surrounding stone, but I imagine it would be extremely expensive.

I was able to greatly improve the onyx top of my JUF by removing the seemingly endless cello tape and residue (the shipper thought it would protect the entirely unattached top - a pity he didn't think about the movement as well) with acetone, then giving it a good going over with marble polish.

As for the celluloid on paper dial, I find it surprising they would use it in an up-market clock. I see there are the tiny cut-outs at the sides for the mounting screws (as with my JUF), but the dial doesn't look as if it's a proper fit to the bezel, so perhaps it's an aftermarket replacement for a enamel on copper dial (which may have suffered a similar fate to mine, if the rest of the clock shows evidence of damage.

It appears the base is composed of two pieces- is there a brass base underneath, and could you post a photos of the underside, showing the mounting screw locations? My JUF is lacking the base, which would have been attached by two screws, left and right. I don't think mine had any but a brass base, per the 1910 catalog, but obviously there was some overlap in the French cases used by different clock companies.

Best,

Mark
 

John Hubby

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Re: Interesting onyx four glass

Les, no question it is a W. Würth & Co. clock, the back plate does appear to be a variant of 1009AA but I'm traveling at the moment and don't have access to my files for comparison. I'll do a full analysis next week when I get back.

For info there were a fairly large number of Bowler & Burdick clocks made with elaborate onyx cases that used variations of the Würth round plate movements, this particular clock isn't one of those but is definitely of the same idea.
 

lesbradley

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Re: Interesting onyx four glass

Les -

A lovely clock - an onyxpected pleasure - and any clock with Pendulum # 20 gets my heart beating slightly faster. I don't know that there's much you can do about the onyx, other than perhaps determine of the glue used for the repair is removable with acetone or water, allowing you to redo the repair. An antique conservationist could probably work wonders with epoxy, hand-tinted to match the surrounding stone, but I imagine it would be extremely expensive.

I was able to greatly improve the onyx top of my JUF by removing the seemingly endless cello tape and residue (the shipper thought it would protect the entirely unattached top - a pity he didn't think about the movement as well) with acetone, then giving it a good going over with marble polish.

As for the celluloid on paper dial, I find it surprising they would use it in an up-market clock. I see there are the tiny cut-outs at the sides for the mounting screws (as with my JUF), but the dial doesn't look as if it's a proper fit to the bezel, so perhaps it's an aftermarket replacement for a enamel on copper dial (which may have suffered a similar fate to mine, if the rest of the clock shows evidence of damage.

It appears the base is composed of two pieces- is there a brass base underneath, and could you post a photos of the underside, showing the mounting screw locations? My JUF is lacking the base, which would have been attached by two screws, left and right. I don't think mine had any but a brass base, per the 1910 catalog, but obviously there was some overlap in the French cases used by different clock companies.

Best,

Mark
Pictures of the case as requested
 

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lesbradley

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Re: Interesting onyx four glass

There is a lot to do on this clock, as I am discovering. Recent bodger has soldered the anchor pin to the arbor and the pillars to the dial plate. The dial plate is seriously bent and been chopped slightly.

As you can see from the recent case pictures posted, there is a lot to do to restore the top onyx plate. You do not want to see the underside of this repair!!!!!!

I think the dial is original, http://www.any400day.com/ has a similar clock picture in his web list, with a slightly more elaborate case. If he picks up on this, I would appreciate his comments.

Another comment! A previous experienced repairer has peened some of the pivot holes to make them tighter. I have not seen this technique on 400 day plates before. Has anyone else encountered it?
 

Ingulphus

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Re: Interesting onyx four glass

Les -

"A previous experienced repairer" - you mean Dr. Clockenstein, who studied at the same harmological academy as the person(s) who worked on my early JUF? People who use punches to close holes should have the same tools used on their eyeballs.

That crack in the onxy could be somewhat disguised by painting it with the same colours as the actual veins - good oil or acrylic artist's paints - then covered with marble or paste wax to give it the same gloss as the stone.

Speaking of bodges - I just bought, at an online auction, a really lovely French four glass clock - the smallest I've seen at just under 8.75 inches, with an unusual pin pallet escapement and a bell rather than a gong. It has a very familiar floral-swagged dial and very ornate brass hands, but at the bottom of the dial it says... "Made in Germany"! Someone took a 400 day dial and drilled two holes for the winding arbors (but removed the arbor for the Brocot adjustment rather than drill another hole). Paging Dr.Clockenstein... :bang:

Best,

Mark
 

lesbradley

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Re: Interesting onyx four glass

Les -

A lovely clock - an onyxpected pleasure - and any clock with Pendulum # 20 gets my heart beating slightly faster. I don't know that there's much you can do about the onyx, other than perhaps determine of the glue used for the repair is removable with acetone or water, allowing you to redo the repair. An antique conservationist could probably work wonders with epoxy, hand-tinted to match the surrounding stone, but I imagine it would be extremely expensive.

I was able to greatly improve the onyx top of my JUF by removing the seemingly endless cello tape and residue (the shipper thought it would protect the entirely unattached top - a pity he didn't think about the movement as well) with acetone, then giving it a good going over with marble polish.

As for the celluloid on paper dial, I find it surprising they would use it in an up-market clock. I see there are the tiny cut-outs at the sides for the mounting screws (as with my JUF), but the dial doesn't look as if it's a proper fit to the bezel, so perhaps it's an aftermarket replacement for a enamel on copper dial (which may have suffered a similar fate to mine, if the rest of the clock shows evidence of damage.

It appears the base is composed of two pieces- is there a brass base underneath, and could you post a photos of the underside, showing the mounting screw locations? My JUF is lacking the base, which would have been attached by two screws, left and right. I don't think mine had any but a brass base, per the 1910 catalog, but obviously there was some overlap in the French cases used by different clock companies.

Best,

Mark
Acetone is slowly eating its way through the epoxy. Couple of days time will see new repair attempt with clear epoxy and pigment.
 

ivancooke

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Re: Interesting onyx four glass

I was thinking Les if you drilled and inserted a metal pin at each side of the centre dome, it might add a bit of extra strength, and help bind the two halves together.





Ivan.
 

lesbradley

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Re: Interesting onyx four glass

I was thinking Les if you drilled and inserted a metal pin at each side of the centre dome, it might add a bit of extra strength, and help bind the two halves together.





Ivan.
The original repair has a very substantial right angled cross brace. I will probably replicate it, have little choice.
 

any400day

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Re: Interesting onyx four glass

I think the dial is original, http://www.any400day.com/ has a similar clock picture in his web list, with a slightly more elaborate case. If he picks up on this, I would appreciate his comments.
Les,

My clock has a cloisonné brass case with an enamel dial. The round movement is Plate #1635 in the Repair Guide.

Vic
 

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lesbradley

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Re: Interesting onyx four glass

Hi Vic,
Thanks for the info. Your clock is certainly different to mine, probably JUF or even Hauck, but I am sure you have researched your movement better than me!

I have now dissolved the Araldite holding the top case onyx together and discovered an even more serious repair is recquired than expected.

Has anyone any experience of adding pigments to clear epoxy for marble/onyx repairs?

I posted a query on " Clock/case repair" and only got a kind response from "weightdriven".
 

John Hubby

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Re: Interesting onyx four glass

Les, back home now and can offer better info. Lots of points noted in the interim that deserve comment.

> Your movement is identical to Plate 1438 except that the serial number is stamped horizontally with a smaller font. For info, the following plates have been positively identified to be by Würth: 1007A, 1008A, 1009, 1009A, 1009AA, 1049, 1049A, 1053, 1437, 1438, 1440, 1603, 1613. The round plate movements 1009A, 1009AA, 1437 and 1438 all have the escape wheel offset that requires an offset anchor for the clock to work.

> Does your movement have the removable bridge in the front plate for the escape arbor pivot?

> The celluloid dial is unusual. This is the only one so far in the Würth data.

> I don't recall ever seeing a 400-Day movement with any of the pivots punched. Guess there is no distinction with gravity pendulum clocks when the bodgers are at play.

> Vic's clock has a JUF movement. This has been clearly confirmed from several examples having the identical back plate layout including at least 10 having Harder serial numbers from 1884 to 1888. After that the plates had no ID until serial numbers were added from about 1905.

> AFAIK, Hauck did not make round plate movements. At least none have been documented at this writing.

> Onyx repair using clear epoxy works well but the camouflage of the cracks takes some doing. I have used a small amount of talc mixed in to give the epoxy a transluscent appearance. Color can be added but it's difficult to get a good match.
 

lesbradley

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Re: Interesting onyx four glass

Yes it has the usual bridge on the front plate.

I am very suspicious about the originality of the dial. Will probably not be able to use it as it has become distorted and raised on one side and will probably catch the hands.

First 400 day movement I have seen with punch marks on pivots, not unusual to encounter on long case clocks in the UK.

Now I have stripped and separated the top onyx I will post a picture soon.
I will glue with clear epoxy but leaving sufficent to fill with pigmented resin. A log time ago I used to use a silica filler, which gave a nice translucent appearance to the resin, will try to locate some.
 

lesbradley

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Another Wurth? but rather different

Just had this one delivered today, another classic case of how not to pack a clock. Dome and inside fine, base not protected and badly dinged.

I guess this is plate 1613 but plus inspection holes and the suspension ring holes.

Also unusual is the Kienzle type C suspension. The suspension bracket is actually made of two parts. The suspension mount bracket is screwed to the upright bracket.

The pendulum is also somewhat unusual, having deep small diameter counterweights.
 

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lesbradley

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Re: Another Wurth? but rather different

I guess the pendulum is type 13 in the guide. So I also presume, assuming this is a Wurth, that there was considerable collaboration between the two companies(Kienzle & Wurth) at some time.
 

harold bain

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Re: Another Wurth? but rather different

Les, you are going to have to start giving shipping instructions to your clock suppliers:eek:.
I would sooner pay extra for proper shipping than have a damaged clock like you seem to be getting. Lucky the dome was protected.
 

lesbradley

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Re: Another Wurth? but rather different

Les, you are going to have to start giving shipping instructions to your clock suppliers:eek:.
I would sooner pay extra for proper shipping than have a damaged clock like you seem to be getting. Lucky the dome was protected.
This was an experienced Ebay seller, we have traded both ways before. It was in a double wall box, top half packed to perfection with bubble wrap and foam blocks, but the base had only slight bubble wrap packing and right up against the box wall. Must have had something heavy dropped on it or thrown from great height to damage, miracle the dome survived.
 

John Hubby

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Re: Another Wurth? but rather different

Just had this one delivered today, another classic case of how not to pack a clock. Dome and inside fine, base not protected and badly dinged.
OUCH!! Not an easy one to repair, either. Even though the base center is removable, the outer spun brass ring is (if I recall correctly) crimped to the steel base support where the feet are fixed. Not easy to get to that at all. :mad:
I guess this is plate 1613 but plus inspection holes and the suspension ring holes.
It's actually Plate 1427 minus the "Made in Germany" stamp. Note that plate has two threaded holes for the ring guards as fitted to your clock, that is characteristic for most Würth clocks thus far documented although there are some later ones with the Kienzle arrangement. Kienzle clocks have only one screw plus a pin.
Also unusual is the Kienzle type C suspension. The suspension bracket is actually made of two parts. The suspension mount bracket is screwed to the upright bracket.
I believe this is the normal configuration for the "C" suspension used by Würth and Kienzle. You had Kienzle serial number 101052 at one time, the photos in my file show the type "C" two-part bracket with the mounting part screwed to the upright bracket. Just to check, I did a random search in my Kienzle files and found all of the type "C" brackets where I could see the part line or mounting screws to be made that way right to the end of Kienzle production.
The pendulum is also somewhat unusual, having deep small diameter counterweights.
I guess the pendulum is type 13 in the guide. So I also presume, assuming this is a Wurth, that there was considerable collaboration between the two companies(Kienzle & Wurth) at some time.
This is the No. 13 pendulum shown in the Repair Guide to have been for Kienzle. My data in fact show this pendulum was first used by Würth from about 1907, then to have first appeared on Kienzle clocks only about 1911. The information we have right now indicates Würth ceased making 400-Day clocks about that same time, so it appears Kienzle picked up the design then and continued to use it at least to the mid-1920's.

Another interesting side note that needs further study is that the crossed-tube and vertical tube mercury pendulums (No. 8 and 9 in the Repair Guide, shown as "Gustav Becker") were patented by Andreas Huber in January 1911, and those also used the exact same base and weight design as for Pendulum 13. Whether Huber collaborated with Würth or not is unknown, but I've disassembled both and there is no physical difference between the two bases or weights. We do know that Huber appear to have closely worked with Kienzle from sometime after 1907, so it's possible he also worked with Wurth and the base design was shared. We do know that Huber made a version of the crossed-tube mercury pendulum specifically for Kienzle shortly after it was patented in 1911.

Regarding Würth collaboration with Kienzle, there is ample evidence to show that was quite likely. Being located in the same town could easily lead to some kind of sharing arrangements or cross-licensing of patented features for their clocks. Common features include:
  • Front plate anchor pivot bridge, 2nd half 1904 until mid-1908 on Würth clocks, from mid-1907 to end of production on Kienzle
  • Suspension No. 14, patented and used by Würth Feb. 1907, from early 1909 to early 1912 on Kienzle
  • Ring suspension guards, first seen on Kienzle early 1907, on Würth early 1908
  • Pallet inspection holes on Würth and Kienzle at same time late 1906
  • Pendulum No. 20 patented and used by Würth late 1903, on Kienzle from 1910
  • Pendulum No. 13 on Würth mid 1907, Kienzle 1911 and later
  • "T" shape crown piece appeared on first Würth clocks in 1903 and was used throughout their production through 1911, on Kienzle from late 1908 to end 1914
To really tie some of this down I need one piece of data that has not yet surfaced, being exactly when Kienzle first started making 400-Day clocks. A. von Held reported this to be 1906 in his "Year-Clocks" writings, but I have yet to find a Kienzle that clearly could have been made in that year. The first ones in my data have the "C" type upper suspension bracket, but we know that was only patented in September 1907. There is a group of about 5,000 clocks with that suspension, followed by a group of about 6,000 that use suspension No. 14 (the Würth gimbal), then nearly all Kienzle's after that have the "C" type suspension, with a few having No. 18.

As can be surmised there is yet a lot of work to do to fully explore and document the manufacture of Würth clocks and the history of that company. However, the above appears to be what we can describe at this writing
 
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John Hubby

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Post Your W. Würth & Co. Clocks Here

This thread will be used for posting clocks made by W. Würth & Co., to enable the development of documentary information regarding this early (1903) company. Threads already in the archives will be merged here for reference, new posts should be added here as each clock is found.
 
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MUN CHOR-WENG

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Re: Post Your W. Würth & Co. Clocks Here

Hi John,

I'm adding a few pictures for your database of a W Wurth in a brass 4-glass case that belongs to a friend of mine.

The clock has a round movement with serial number 7606 which is only 8 units later than the one I posted in this thread sometime ago. I also atttach a back plate picture of that clock for comparision.

Mun C.W.
 

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John Hubby

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Re: Post Your W. Würth & Co. Clocks Here

Hi John,

I'm adding a few pictures for your database of a W Wurth in a brass 4-glass case that belongs to a friend of mine.

The clock has a round movement with serial number 7606 which is only 8 units later than the one I posted in this thread sometime ago. I also atttach a back plate picture of that clock for comparision.

Mun C.W.
Mun, thanks very much for posting this clock. Your earlier clock was made for Bowler & Burdick, with Plate 1009AA having the "Anniversary Trade Mark Registered" stamp. This clock has Plate 1438 and was made in early 1906 at the same time as your earlier one. All should note that the two back plate designs are identical except for the stampings.

I see it is fitted with Pendulum No. 20, can you confirm whether the DRGM and serial number is stamped in the bottom cover plate?
 

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