Post Your W. Würth & Co. Clocks Here

Re: This one is different

Hi Chick, please try again with the photo. Based on the info you have posted, I think your clock is probably made by Jahresuhren-Fabrik, age will be about 1904/1905 based on the issue date for the patent number that is on the clock. It is actually "DRP 144687", which refers to the L. Wille temperature compensating pendulum. You don't say if there is a separate serial number, if there is that will help a lot in dating the clock.

John Hubby

 

Re: This one is different

Chick, thanks for the photos. GREAT clock! I've not seen that case before; it is more elaborate than the ones shown in the JUF 1910 catalog but similar to a couple other Art Nouveau style cases I have documented. The movement is Plate No. 1049 from the Repair Guide 10th Ed. page 83, (definitely by Jahresuhren-Fabrik), made in 1904 based on the serial number 4434.

Now known to be made by W. Würth & Co. in early 1905 based on the serial number.

One question about the dial, is whether it is cast or stamped into the case front, or is it bradded or screwed on as a separate piece?

I have seen a couple of these pendulums before but don't have full info on them as yet regarding who designed or made them. Is there a serial number stamped on the bottom of the base? Or a DRGM number? If the latter then I can definitely find out who was the inventor.

You mention two barrel teeth missing; when you do that job be sure to check all the teeth and pivots on the first and second wheels in the train. Usually when a mainspring lets go with enough force to knock a couple teeth off the barrel, it will also do some damage up the train.

Keep us posted about how the restoration goes, and also I will appreciate your response to the questions above.

John Hubby

 

Re: This one is different

Chick, could you try the pics again? They didn't make it through. Thanks for the additional info, it's not unusual for there to be no numbers on the case. How about the bottom of the pendulum?

John Hubby

 

Re: This one is different

Andy, the problem I'm having is that the photo in Chick's first message doesn't show, the three pics in his second message DO show, but then the ones of the pendulum don't. I just checked using IE for my browser and they ALL show up there, except that the photo of the top of the pendulum is truncated at the bottom. My normal browser is Safari, and when I right click to open in another window I get the message "Not Found. The requested URL /pictures//1870-Pendulum was not found on this server."

I'll report to Jeff, have not had this problem before at all. I've got all the settings correct for not blocking popups, etc so don't know what is the deal.

Anyway . . sure wish there was a number associated with the "DRGM" stamp on the bottom of the pendulum. I suspect this pendulum was patented by W. Würth & Co. There are three DRGM's for torsion pendulums in the 1903-1906 period by them that haven't been fully identified as yet but which certainly describe features of this pendulum:

DRGM 215537, 16 December 1903, Jahresuhr Swenningen W. Würth & Co: "Torsionspendel für Jahresuhren mit Reguliergewichten . . . "
Translation: Torsion pendulum for yearly clocks with adjustment weights . .

DRGM 257636, 13 July 1905, Jahresuhr Swenningen W. Würth & Co: "Regulier-Einrichtung an Torsionspendel . . "
Translation: Adjustment mechanism at torsion pendulum . .

DRGM 270879, 26 January 1906, Jahresuhr Swenningen W. Würth & Co: "Präzisions-Reguliereinrichtung für Drehpendel . . "
Translation: Precision adjustment mechanism for turning pendulums . .

The partial descriptions in German are from an article written by Duck in the Feb. 2006 Bulletin. There are more complete descriptions at the NAWCC library that I will obtain, also may be other sources to identify this pendulum.

John Hubby

 

Re: JUF or Kienzle

Les, the movement and pendulum of your clock certainly go together, but I don't think they started life with the base, support columns, and movement support plate. The latter parts have every appearance of belonging to a Kundo.

Who made the movement, pend., etc . . I have these catalogued as JUF, but with a question mark. Right now I have a total of 36 clocks in the database that have identical plate layouts, the same finial as your clock, and except for four of them have a fancy beaded base. Within the first ten clocks by serial number are seven that have the Wille Temperature Compensating Pendulum No. 7 from the book. That happens to match the DRP 144687 stamped on the back plate, which refers to that pendulum. ALL the rest of the 36 clocks except for three that have an incorrect disc pendulum, have the No. 20 DRGM pendulum with matching serial numbers to the back plate of the movements.

There are now 16 clocks in the data that have the exact movement and pendulum No. 20, and all but three of these have the same base, columns, and movement support plate. I've attached two photos below to illustrate, one is of a complete clock that shows what the base looks like, and the other is a front view of a movement that shows the fancy support plate and post finials that are present on all but yours.

The plate numbers from the book on these 36 clocks, in serial number order of first appearance in the data, are 1049, 1049A, 1440, 1009, 1603, 1613. Notice that all of these have exactly the same train and click layout, and all fit within the serial numbers 1041 (lowest) and 27305 (highest). We know that DRP 144687 was granted 29 Sept. 1903, so the earliest clock in this list could not have been made before that date. The DRP disappeared after serial number 7410, but the use of the Wille temperature compensating pendulum had disappeared even earlier.

Several things bug me about this data:
1) ALL of the clocks used the same movement click design, which is different from either the JUF or Huber normal design.
2) ALL of the clocks used the identical finial design both for the headpiece and for the post finials.
3) Almost all of the clocks use the same fancy base design, which is NOT seen on other JUF or Huber clocks.
4) The first clocks used the Wille pendulum, and the DRP number continued through about one-third of the total series even though the Wille pendulum had not been used except at the beginning.
5) The only other pendulum used with this series of back plates is No. 20. We don't know who patented it, unfortunately the DRGM number wasn't stamped on any of the pendulums. However, since it shows up almost at the same time as the Wille No. 7 was introduced, a good guess is that the DRGM was granted in late 1903 or early 1904. That points to a pendulum design patent by Louis Wille granted 26 August 1903, for "a torsion pendulum with design on the pendulum disc . . " Is this No. 20? Don't know yet, but adds fuel to the fire.

Altogether , the above points indicate that someone connected with Louis Wille made these clocks. Unfortunately there is yet no data to connect him with any particular clockmaker, however it is significant that DRP 144687 shows up on the above set of back plates, all the same design. So far it is found only on one other plate, No. 1053, an unidentified round plate front-wind movement with no serial number.

As I said, for the time being I have these catalogued under JUF. Definitely NOT Kienzle, and unlikely to be Huber. The answer will come when we find out who made clocks for Wille or collaborated with him to build clocks using his patent(s).

NOTE: This proved to be prophetic, turns out all the clocks stamped with DRP 144687 Wille temperature compensating pendulum patent were made by W. Würth & Co.

John Hubby
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Re: JUF or Kienzle

Les, looks great! Regarding the dial, as best I can tell these metal dials were silkscreen printed after silvering, and then lacquered. Trying to clean them with anything other than mildly soapy warm water will "always" result in damage or even complete erasure of the numbers. The only markings other than the numbers are the minute ring and a black circle at the crease just inside the numbers. This dial design of one of several that I've documented with this set of clocks.

FRONT PLATE PIVOT BRIDGE FOR PALLET ARBOR

You mention the front plate pivot bridge for the pallet arbor. This feature is another reason I'm not making a firm call on who made these. From the data I have now, this feature first shows up on a Plate 1049 clock, serial number 4080 with a matching No. 20 pendulum. However, there are some lower serial number clocks where I don't have confirmation, these are (hoping the owners will see this and respond):

S/N 2182, posted by Phil Procter
S/N 3235, posted by Michael Davies

Both have a No. 20 pendulum with matching serial number. I need to know if these two clocks have fixed or adjustable pallets, and whether they have the pivot bridge feature on the front plates.

All of the clocks with higher serial numbers, and with plates 1049, 1438, 1440, 1603 and 1613 have this feature, and all but four of them have matching No. 20 pendulums including the round plate movement Plate 1438 having serial number 6971. This is a "new" discovery, the book shows "maker unknown" but I'll bet a big nickel it was made by the same maker who did all these under discussion. This movement has no resemblance to any known JUF or Kienzle round plate movement.

This feature doesn't show up on any JUF, Huber, Hauck or GB that I know of. However, it "does" appear on some Kienzle clocks made after serial number 100,000. Since Kienzle only started 400-Day production in 1906, there is little to no possibility that the clocks we are discussing were made by Kienzle. It may be that whoever had this feature patented licensed it to Kienzle around 1908-1909. I've not found any patent reference to it as yet.

So . . more grist for the mill.

John Hubby
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Re: JUF or Kienzle

KP and Michael, thanks much for the additional data. I already had good documentation on all those except KP's S/N 2149, but was missing the pallet configuration and the pivot bridge info.

KP, could you post some photos of the S/N 2149 clock?

John Hubby
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Re: Jahresuhr-Schwenningen (1907)

Zep, this ad (I think) may be the equivalent of the Rosetta Stone for possible identification of who made a group of serially numbered clocks previously stuck in the "who made these?" category.

I have compiled a database listing of more than 60 clocks that have features not found on JUF, Huber, GB, or Hauck clocks, and that can be dated as having been made between late 1903 to 1907 or slightly later. Some of the features are found on Kienzle clocks after about 1908, indicating there may have been a licensing deal (or what happened to Würth? Were they taken over by Kienzle?). The serial numbers indicate that more than 16,000 were made, initially stamped with DRP 144687 and fitted only with the Wille Temperature Compensating pendulum (Repair Guide No. 7) until about serial number 3000, then transitioning to the pendulum in the ad (Repair Guide No. 20) through the rest of the production series.

Around serial number 6000 the DRP was dropped and "Made in Germany" found, then all markings dropped after about serial number 9000. Interestingly, clocks with these characteristics were sold to Bowler and Burdick from about serial number 4000 and continuing throughout the rest of the production documented thus far. Some of the B&B clocks have pendulums unique to B&B clocks, a majority have Pendulum No. 20. BTW, I do like the name given to this one, "Kronen-Dreh-Pendel" or Crown Turning Pendulum. Some of our colleagues have put names such as "Medusa" or "Snake" to this one, I'll refer to it henceforth as the "Crown Pendulum".

I have previously found references stating that Würth did make 400-Day clocks in this period, however this is the FIRST documented example I know of. Wonderful!! Also for interest, I'm attaching a photo of one of these clocks that has a different dial and support posts, but the base and pendulum are identical. The pendulum serial number matches the clock serial number, and it has back plate No. 1440. One key point to note on this back plate is the click layout . . identical to plate No. 1049 (DRP 144687) and several others, but not at all like JUF, Hauck, Huber, GB, or Kienzle. In fact, completely different layout, one of the several things that point to these clocks NOT being made by any of the names listed.

Another example of these clocks can be seen in the clock featured by Les Bradley in his thread "JUF or Kienzle". No question that one is included in the same group as I've described here. I commented in that thread about what I had found up to the time Les posted his clock (congrats, Les on finding the correct base!), we now have more evidence that these were made by a "different" maker, and quite possibly it was W. Würth & Co.

Boy, what I would give if the ad also showed the back plate!!

 

Re: Jahresuhr-Schwenningen (1907)

Zep, thanks for the additional material. The 1904 advert with patent numbers virtually clinches that W. Würth & Co. were the makers of the group of clocks I've compiled, as both these patents (DRP 144687 and DRGM 215537) were found with clocks that can be conclusively dated to late 1903/early 1904 and have features that appear consistently throughout the production of these movement designs.

DRP 144687 granted 29 Sept. 1903 was the patent for the Wille temperature compensating pendulum, No. 7 in the Repair Guide and is stamped on all the plates with which this pendulum (matching serial numbers) has been found. This clearly coincides with the founding of the Würth company. Further, this DRP is found ONLY on plates of movements that have other key features appearing throughout the production.

DRGM 215537 was granted 16 December 1903 for the guide slots cut into the top of a pendulum disc, in which pins underneath the adjusting weights can slide. This prevents turning of the weights on the disc, and is found on pendulum No. 20 in the Repair Guide. This pendulum in turn is found (matching serial numbers) on most of the clocks I believe were made by Würth after serial number 2900 made about the end of 2003 or early 2004. From a thorough search of clocks in my collection and business inventory there is no question pendulum No. 20 was the first with that feature. It was used later by others, notably for Huber-designed and patented pendulums made after 1910 that were used by GB, Kienzle, Badische, and of course Huber.

Based on the evident connection with Würth seen from the above two patents, I searched the listing from the DUZ that Doug Stevenson put together and found all the DRGM's granted to Würth and subsequently listed in the Bulletin article on torsion patents published in the February 2006 issue. These provide even more evidence that this particular group of clocks must have been made by Würth.

This following DRGM is for the disc pendulum with graduated sub-discs operated by gears to adjust time, and I have two examples documented with matching serial numbers to the movements.

I believe the next one could be the heavy 3-ball pendulum No. 26 in the Repair Guide, attributed there to Haas but found mostly with Ph. Hauck clocks. None of these have yet been documented with one of the "Würth" movements but that could yet happen.

The following is an improvement on DRGM 257636.

The following DRGM is unquestionably the gimbal upper bracket No. 14!!! The date of the DRGM coincides with its appearance on both the "Würth" clocks and later on Kienzle clocks, where it was used at least until WWI.

Once again, the following DRGM is unquestionably the gimbal suspension No. 14, describing an improvement in DRGM 302860.

So, while we don't quite have a "smoking gun" here (such as a Würth ad showing the backplate design of one of their clocks) there certainly is a preponderance of evidence that Würth was the maker of a group of clocks numbering around 20,000, that all have common features not found on early JUF, Huber, or Hauck clocks made in the same time frame that Würth was noted to be in business. One of these features (front plate bridge for the anchor arbor) shows up on Kienzle clocks made in 1908 or later, indicating some kind of cooperation may have occurred with Würth at that time. Also, Kienzle used pendulum No. 20 for a number of years starting about 1908 and onward.

The features found on "Würth" clocks include:

1) Click layout with no click spring pin hole, per Plate 1049 and others.
2) No use of suspension guards, with possible exception of clocks assembled by Bowler & Burdick that may have been added by B&B (Plate 1008A).
3) Fixed pallets from the first production through about serial number 3000, then adjustable pallets for all subsequent production (No change in backplate design with this change).
4) Removable anchor arbor bridge in the front plate, after serial number 3000 (coincides with change to adjustable pallets)
5) First and exclusive use of pendulum No. 20 at least to 1907 based on matching serial numbers.
6) First and exclusive use of the rotating disc adjustable pendulum.
7) Exclusive use of a movement support plate with double ogee form at the front.
8) First use of upper suspension bracket No. 14.
9) The only 400-Day clocks with banking pins for the anchor.
10) First and only known use of offset anchor until J. Kaiser in 1950's.

The back plates that I now conclude were most likely made by Würth include:
1007A, 1008A, 1009, 1009A, 1009AA, 1049, 1049A, 1053, 1437, 1438, 1440, 1603, 1613.

Note that all the rectangular plate movements have the exact same click layout. There are two basic round plate designs (1009A, 1009AA, 1437, 1438 are one design, 1053 is a different design) all which the Repair Guide report as "Manufacturer Not Known". None of these have a click spring positioning pin hole. The first four round plates all have offset anchors with counterweights, the first clocks with this feature and not seen again until the J. Kaiser Universe narrow plate models in the 1950's. Most of the round plate clocks documented so far have banking pins for the anchors, seen in the plate drawings for 1009A as threaded holes at an angle to the eccentric nut. Plate 1053 has also been documented to have banking pins, and rectangular plates 1008A and 1029A have banking pins.

One final note regarding the "Würth" clocks is that quite a number of their movements (and complete clocks) were used by Bowler and Burdick, complete with the "Anniversary Trade Mark Registered" markings on the movement back plates or dials or both. Würth is not mentioned in any reference found so far as a supplier to B&B, however we don't have any concrete info from B&B records as to who actually were their suppliers. All that is known right now is that we have documented movements believed to have been made by Huber and JUF, and have conclusive evidence that Hauck and Kienzle did supply movements. Now, we have strong evidence that Würth also supplied B&B, with 13 examples documented out of a total now of 70 clocks in the database believed to have been made by Würth.

More research will be needed before we can give a completely certain answer that these were all made by Würth, but as I mentioned above a preponderance of evidence now points to that conclusion.

 

Re: Jahresuhr-Schwenningen (1907)

Mun, in my opinion your clock matches all characteristics of what I think now are Würth clocks, not just the front appearance. Specifically, your clock has:

• Plate 1603 with characteristic click layout.
• No suspension guard.
• Adjustable pallets.
• Pendulum No. 20 with matching serial number.
• Gimbal suspension bracket No. 14 (DRGM 302860).
• Removable bridge in front plate for anchor arbor.
• Fancy double ogee design movement support plate.
• Fancy base. I missed mentioning this characteristic in the long message above, but it's certainly true for the very large majority of these clocks.

I didn't have this one in my database but it's there now, one of 70 and a rapidly growing number with these characteristics. Based on the serial number of your clock I would date it as 1907, being made not long after the introduction of the gimbal upper bracket No. 14 early that year.

If anyone else has a clock with one of the backplates mentioned in my message above, please post here so we can add it to the database.

 

Re: Jahresuhr-Schwenningen (1907)

Mun, thanks for posting! I had your clock in my database but without the photos, so that fills in some blank spaces. And, thanks to Zep for posting the historical info regarding the couple to whom the clock was given. I would also presume this to have been a wedding gift.

The 1906 inscription date is exactly where my data show the movement being made. I have another B&B clock recorded, just 117 digits later with serial number 7715 (Plate 1008A), that has an original B&B sale label pasted to the bottom with the date 18 June 1906 hand written in. These two clocks were likely to have both been at the B&B facility in 1906.

Regarding the back plate detail for Plate 1009AA (and for 1009A, 1437, and 1438), the top two holes are incorrectly shown as being threaded. I have examined examples of 1009A and 1438, and those holes are not threaded on the actual clocks. I suspect an error by the draftsman.

For info I've identified two more clocks for the database since my last posting, bringing the total now to 72, with 14 having B&B identification.

 

Re: Jahresuhr-Schwenningen (1907)

Vic, thanks for the info and photo of your Wille pendulum, and I'll certainly look forward to seeing photos of the two other clocks you mention.

I'm not where I can check my "one only" Wille patent pendulum but will do so when I'm back home. Is your pendulum the one from clock with serial number 1174? Does it have a bottom cover with any info such as serial number or DRGM? If not, we won't know for sure if the pendulum and clock started life together, unless you have some other confirming information.

Since the DRGM was granted to Würth, and in December 1903 after the Wille patent was granted in September 1903 (or possibly earlier, the Sept. date is for the specification), I wonder whether your Wille pendulum was made after Dec. 1903 since it appears that Würth was the maker of the clocks associated with DRP 144687? My data show two Wille pendulum clocks made in first half 1904, neither one belong to me, one has the bottom cover missing so no info if that one would have had the DRGM stamp. The other has a serial number per my records but I didn't ask the owner about the DRGM and no longer have contact with him to find out.

Of the other clocks in the data with the Wille pendulum, only three have the bottom cover and all three have only the serial number but no DRGM, all three would have been made before December 1903 if my data is correct. Even then I don't know if these had the slots in the disc and no way to find out. More frustration in not knowing to ask at the time!!

 

Re: Jahresuhr-Schwenningen (1907)

Vic, thanks for the great photos and congratulations on having these clocks.

I have put the two Tiffany back plates in my database as Plate 1438*, with the asterisk referencing the different back stamping. Otherwise these plates are identical to Plate 1438. They are also physically identical to Plate 1009AA, but I've attempted to keep the B&B plates separate from others, thus chose 1438 as the closest match.

I see there isn't any ID on the bottom of the pendulum. These are the only two clocks thus far in my data with this exact pendulum, others have larger diameter and thicker gallery discs (some much thicker), or are the B&B type Pend. No. 24.

Regarding the slots in the Wille pendulum disc, I'm beginning to conclude that it's possible all the clocks I have now in my data were made after the DRGM for the slot was granted to Würth. We know that Würth started making 400-Day clocks in 1903, but we don't know exactly when. They appear to have made perhaps 20,000 clocks from startup in 1903 to some time around 1910, let's say seven years of operation or a little under 3,000 clocks per year.

The lowest serial number recorded to date is No. 1041, so it's quite possible there are lower serial numbered clocks made before the DRGM was granted. Time will tell, of course, as we add more clocks to the data. Now I need to be sure and check all the Wille pendulums I come across to see if they have the guide slots or not.

BTW, your clock No. 2076 wasn't previously in my data, thanks for providing the photos and data!

Thanks once again for your help!!

 

Re: Jahresuhr-Schwenningen (1907)

Vic, thanks very much for the photos and info. One anomoly with this clock is the absence of "Made in Germany" on the back plate. So far this is the only one of these so I've posted a note in my data indicating it as a variation on Plate 1049.

 

Re: adjustable pallet escapement

WGA, I'll answer your question about adjustable pallets in my next post. First, however, I would like to ask if you would post photos of your clock here so we can document it for our W. Würth & Co. database. I believe you meant to type in Plate 1009AA (there is no 1099AA), and that backplate has been positively identified to be made by Würth & Co. My data indicate it was probably made about 1907, a bit later than shown in the Repair Guide. The serial number of your clock is only 17 digits later than the plate shown there. I'm guessing the clock is likely a 4-glass crystal regulator style or one of the other fancy case Bowler & Burdick cases. I will look forward to seeing the photos.

 

Re: adjustable pallet escapement

From my research the first use of adjustable pallets for 400-Day clock escapements was by Gustav Becker, when they introduced their standard size table model disc pendulum clock in 1902. Becker clocks continued to use this form of escapement until production was stopped at the end of 1932, even though they patented other escapements for which examples have not been seen.

Quickly following were Ph. Hauck (1903-1914), W. Würth & Co. (1903-1910+), Kienzle Clock Co. (1906-1929), and Gebrüder Junghans (1908-1914).

Following WWI, there was Kundo (1923-1986), Schlenker & Posner (1928-1937), Kern & Link (1929-1936), and Kern & Söhne (1937-Present Day).

All of the above companies used adjustable pallet escapements for all their clocks except where pin pallet escapements were used.

Throughout this same period, Jahresuhren-Fabrik (1881-1986) used fixed pallets but after WWII some clocks are found with adjustable pallets. Huber Uhren (1895-1927) used fixed pallets but some clocks believed made by them after 1910 have adjustable pallets. Vosseler (1912-1926) used fixed pin pallets.

After WWII virtually all makers used adjustable pallets except where pin pallets were used. JUF (Schatz) seemed to be the lone holdout using fixed pallets for most of their clocks.

Over the period 1870-1902 the huge majority of clocks made used fixed pallets: Jahresuhren-Fabrik (1881+), Hanau Uhrenfabrik (1885-1887), L. Furtwängler & Söhne (1885), Steinheuer & Rabe (1887-1892), J. J. Meister (1891), and Huber Uhren (1895+)

This same period saw a lot of experimentation with escapements. The following have been documented:

• Guilmet á Paris, crank lever escapement (1868 - 1880's)
• B. Haas, Paris, half deadbeat fixed pallet escapement (1868-1870's)
• G. L. Theible, Paris, brocot type trip escapement (1868-1870's)
• Gustav Becker, cylinder escapement (1873-1901)
• John Hile, folding arm fixed pallet (1876-1885?)
• Anton Harder, crown wheel and verge (1877-1882), most made by third parties including A. Willmann, G. Becker
• Anton Harder, pinwheel detent escapement (1880 patent), not known if produced
• Wendes, Metzger & Co, double wheel remontoir (1889-1892)
• R. Schnekenburger (W. Köhler patent) chronometer detent (1894-1896)
• C. Bauer (J. Christian Bauer patent), duplex escapement (1896-1898)
• C. Bauer (J. Christian Bauer patent) pinwheel escapement (1901-190?)

There are others for which patents exist but no working models have been identified to date. There are also a few escapements known to exist from this period but no knowledge who made them.

To summarize:
1870-1902, mainly fixed pallet escapements (estimated 95%) with lots of experimentation going on.
1903-1940, mainly adjustable pallets with JUF and Huber being the main ones with fixed pallets.
1946-End, nearly all adjustable pallets (75%) with JUF lone holdout using fixed pallets.