Post Your Schlenker & Posner 400-Day Clocks Here

shutterbug

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Re: Clock in a box

If you have one, Martin, you guys should take this to PM's at this point :)
 

John Hubby

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Re: Clock in a box

Many thanks for the information - I didn't know about that development. I will make a note in my copy of Terwilliger and also in the Lexikon.

JTD
JTD, check the thread "Post your Schlenker & Posner 400-Day Clocks Here". You'll have to scroll down but there are a couple of posts I've made that list the seven presently identified plates that are actually made by Schlenker & Posner.

Hi All,
I have just been given a colck in bits in a box, a friend had striped it but assures me that every part is there except the torsion spring!
The clock has no identfying marks apart from a serial number 5082, I have found a flowchart online to help identify it but am having problems as it dosn't seem to fit exactly with any of the makes.
I was wondering if any of the members here could recognise the clock from a photo of the back plate, the hight is 92.5mm width 68.8mm and thickness 2mm.
Any help would be greatly apresiated as this is the my first 400 day clock and I would dearly love to bring it back to life!
Many Thanks, Steve
Steve, thanks for your inquiry and posting the photos of what you had to start with. Definitely a challenge to get it all back together but you certainly appear to be on the right track.

Your clock was definitely made by Schlenker & Posner (SuP) as already identified. Based on the serial number and plate design (no suspension guard) it was made in the Oct.-Dec. quarter of 1928, which was the first year that SuP was in operation. Their clocks appear very much like Kundos but there are a significant number of differences that leave no question they aren't by Kundo. Reading the thread I mentioned above to JTD can give you a lot of info about the differences and what to look for. For example, the pendulum you have identified as the correct one for your clock was used ONLY by SuP even though it is identified in the Horolovar 400-Day Clock Repair Guide as being by Kundo.

Do keep us posted on your progress, we'll look forward to seeing it all back together soon.
 

MartinM

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Re: Clock in a box

Specific to the trade mentioned, previously.
We've both put our pendulums in the mail.
I guess that means we can delete those posts pertinent to the trade?
 

John Hubby

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Re: Clock in a box

Martin, thanks for your help to Steve. I'll use this as a teaching opportunity now that we have set up the new "400-Day and Torsion Clock Parts Wanted" thread.

1) If the user needing a part has only mentioned this in his main thread and you have what he needs, there is no harm mentioning that you may have something to offer. However, you then need to say "I'll contact you off-list". Use a Private Message or email to contact the person needing the part; either of these is usually available by clicking on the user's ID in his post. Note that some users don't enable the email option in their profile so only the Private Message option is available.

2) If you see a post asking for a part but you don't have one to offer, advise the user to post his request, if possible with photos, in the "400-Day and Torsion Clock Parts Wanted" thread.

3) In the "400-Day and Torsion Clock Parts Wanted" thread, it's OK to ask questions about the needed part, to be sure you know what is wanted. However, ALL contacts to make a swap or sale must be made off list by Private Message or email and not in that thread.

Thanks to all for your help and cooperation!

Steve, we'll look forward to seeing your clock when you have it completed.
 

MartinM

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Re: Clock in a box

Sounds good, John. This puts two clocks right. The one I'm correcting is my "Disco clock", currently.
I used a very large glass paperweight in the shape of a solitaire diamond as a pendulum with a really oversized suspension spring and it spins around like 4 rotations per cycle.
I'm almost gonna miss that.
Almost.
 

spresto9

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Re: Clock in a box

Hi all,
Thanks to MartinM's great help in suplying the correct pendulum the box of bits have morphed into a lovely clock, a new main spring and suspension spring have helped restore it to good running order and its keeping time to about 1 miniute a week.
2015-12-03 002 (450x600).jpg 2015-12-03 003 (450x600).jpg 2015-12-03 005 (450x600).jpg 2015-12-03 007 (450x600).jpg 2015-12-03 014 (450x600).jpg
Cheers Spresto9
 

shutterbug

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Re: Clock in a box

Very nice job, spresto! I also envy your green grass and foliage! It's bleakly winter here! :)
 

spresto9

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Re: Clock in a box

Thanks again Martin, its going off to my good friends as a Christmas gift now, better start looking for another one for me!
Steve
 

John Hubby

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Re: Clock in a box

Great job, Spresto!! :thumb: And thanks to Martin for making the pendulum trade. You now have what would be classified as a completely original Schlenker & Posner made in the first year of production.

For record and archive purposes, I'm moving this into the "Post Your Schlenker & Posner 400-Day Clocks Here" thread.
 

redmagic

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Hi all, this is mu first post.
This site is a wealth of knowledgeable people with lots of information and I enjoy reading and learning.
I have the same clock as Spresto9 with a serial No 5154 ( mine was a rubbish tip find ) the only difference mine has is the dial, it looks the same but as well as the 1 to 12 it also has 13 to 24 on the outside of the main numbers.
Bill.
 

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Bill, welcome to the NAWCC Message Board!! Your clock would have been made toward the end of 1928 based on the serial number. It would be great if you could post some photos for us, in particular a full front view and a good closeup of the movement back plate.
 

Dave T

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Got the clock today. The number is 58641. Wonder where that puts it in the production line.
Also need to confirm the plate number as the bottom block has been detached. Just want to be sure I get it to the proper length.
 

Dave T

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Thanks Kurt, I think you're right! Meantime, I just reconnected the bottom block to what was left of my spring. And, during the process I found the broken off end inside the suspension block. I imagine it will run quite a bit fast, until I put a new spring on it.
 

KurtinSA

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It's not THAT fast...I have a couple of clocks that came to me with shorter springs...by more than you've mentioned. I'm at the far ends of the adjustment, but they still run. Can't hurt to try it.

Kurt
 

MartinM

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Before I was well-stocked in the suspension spring department and, on my own clocks that I intend to never sell, I would loosen the top block and pull the spring down, repositioning to a point about halfway as far as it would take to fall out and then insert that same amount into the lower block.
Not 'right' but it works and you don't have to pull out the guide or mark it out on a template.
 

Dave T

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I figure it's about 4mm short, assuming it was perfect before! I'll let it run a few days or weeks even, and see what happens.
I'm sure the spring on it is not original, and the fork is aluminum! First one I've seen that wasn't brass.
 

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Got the clock today. The number is 58641. Wonder where that puts it in the production line.
Also need to confirm the plate number as the bottom block has been detached. Just want to be sure I get it to the proper length.
Dave, your clock is a great example why there was so much confusion between Schlenker & Posner (SuP) and Kundo clocks, being very close "look-alikes". Actually you have a Kundo made in 1933 just before they introduced the pendulum guide cup.

Both Kundo and SuP made clocks for the National Silver Co. The logo in the half-moon shape on your clock was only used by Kundo, on the SuP back plate it is written out in horizontal format.

I've made a detailed list of the differences between Kundo and SuP clocks earlier in this thread, if you can find that post you'll see your clock is "obviously" a Kundo, albeit a quite nice example.
 

Dave T

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Thanks John,
I appreciate that information. I'll study your post.
 

clksmyhobby

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Hi Kurt. I have a rescue clock ($10 at local thrift store) with backplate similar to yours - mine is #1555 with National Silver Company - pendulum is #37. Was complete with suspension guard and what appears to be the original dome. The book says suspension unit #1, but I stuck with the one that came with it (see photos) assuming it to be original to the 1912 date in the book. Spring was broken short. After much cleaning and minor repair to one gear, clock was running again. I increased the spring length for a better balanced look and had to go to .0040" for proper timing. Rotation was just over 270 degrees with good over swing.

It ran for several months, then began to intermittently stop. The main spring would catch on let down even though it had been cleaned/lubed more than once. Finally replaced the main spring with used unit from a later model Kundo. Has run for 3 weeks and the main spring does not seem to be catching as before - checked it when removing the suspension unit for photos.

I could not find a suspension unit in the book that looked like this one, but I won't question something that works. If it was fabricated by previous owner, it was done well. Hope this is some help, it was a learning experience for me.

Also, I have a couple of 1950 Kundos with that face plate.

Mike

#1555 fork & block.JPG #1555 suspension unit.JPG
 

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Hi Kurt. I have a rescue clock ($10 at local thrift store) with backplate similar to yours - mine is #1555 with National Silver Company - pendulum is #37. Was complete with suspension guard and what appears to be the original dome. The book says suspension unit #1, but I stuck with the one that came with it (see photos) assuming it to be original to the 1912 date in the book. Spring was broken short. After much cleaning and minor repair to one gear, clock was running again. I increased the spring length for a better balanced look and had to go to .0040" for proper timing. Rotation was just over 270 degrees with good over swing.

It ran for several months, then began to intermittently stop. The main spring would catch on let down even though it had been cleaned/lubed more than once. Finally replaced the main spring with used unit from a later model Kundo. Has run for 3 weeks and the main spring does not seem to be catching as before - checked it when removing the suspension unit for photos.

I could not find a suspension unit in the book that looked like this one, but I won't question something that works. If it was fabricated by previous owner, it was done well. Hope this is some help, it was a learning experience for me.

Also, I have a couple of 1950 Kundos with that face plate.

Mike
Mike, thanks for posting. One quick thing is to note that your pendulum isn't for a Kundo, but is a Schlenker & Posner (SuP) pendulum. It "will" work, but as you found out it needs a 0.0040 suspension spring, being heavier than the No. 35 that possibly should be with your clock The suspension parts you have pictured also appear to be for a SuP clock. However, we can know for sure what you have if you will post photos of the back plate and the rest of the clock including the suspension guard. The serial number will also be a clue, the Kundo and SuP clocks had different size numbers, SuP the larger one.

BTW, the date in the Repair Guide for Plate 1555 is way off-base at 1912. Kundo did not exist as a company until 1918, and the first 400-Day clocks they made was in early 1923. Will look forward to see your photos.
 

clksmyhobby

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Thanks for the inputs, John. I guess the Horolovar 10th edition data is a little off. The plate is 1559, not 1555 as I previously posted. The stamped logo is THE NATIONAL SILVER CO and GERMANY, with serial 12648. Pendulm looks like #37, that goes back to plate 1317, same date and mfg data.

Here are the photos. If anyone has posted tips of making good clock photos without glare, reflections, etc. I would like to check them out.

Mike

NSC 1.JPG NSC 2.JPG NSC 3.JPG NSC 4.JPG NSC 5.JPG NSC 6.JPG NSC.JPG
 

KurtinSA

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Here are the photos. If anyone has posted tips of making good clock photos without glare, reflections, etc. I would like to check them out.
I'm still working on pictures myself, but you can look at the pictures I posted at the start of this thread. I built a "photo booth" which is nothing more than a white cardboard bottom with a folded white poster board that you can find in most stores school section. I then use a couple of lights, one on either side of the item being photographed but not generally pointed directly at it...that avoids all the glare. It's also important to use a tripod...I found I just can't hold my smartphone still enough without it. If you have a "real" camera, you could change the settings to get better quality like light setting, f-stop, depth of field...all that good stuff. But a tripod is pretty important.

Kurt
 

etmb61

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Thanks for the inputs, John. I guess the Horolovar 10th edition data is a little off. The plate is 1559, not 1555 as I previously posted. The stamped logo is THE NATIONAL SILVER CO and GERMANY, with serial 12648. Pendulm looks like #37, that goes back to plate 1317, same date and mfg data.

Here are the photos. If anyone has posted tips of making good clock photos without glare, reflections, etc. I would like to check them out.

Mike

View attachment 477915 View attachment 477916 View attachment 477917 View attachment 477918 View attachment 477919 View attachment 477920 View attachment 477921

Mike,

Your clock was made by Schlenker and Posner, not Kundo. S&P made their clocks in the late 20s and 30s, and were bought out by Kern. Great find!

Eric
 

clksmyhobby

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Thank you for the photo tips and data, Eric.

Good info for my records - I had it listed under category "One of a Kind" as National Silver Company. On teardown, the mechanism/wheels are very similar if not identical to older K&O. The main spring I used was the same thickness, width and unwound size/shape. The barrel was the same dimensions as the K&O except for the width of the gear teeth. It came from a 1951 vintage K&O.

Maybe then this one is still my oldest. I do have a couple of K&O that the book shows as 1930ish.

For over a year, I struggled to keep this clock running for more than differing short periods. After servicing more than 80 of these, I finally actually had to replace a main spring. Is this a typical failure - main spring cleans up well, winds smoothly, lets down smoothly if checked immediately - then after a time of sitting the spring coils seen to adhere to each other? The loss of power stops the clock and the spring catches on let down. Add a half turn and the clock runs again for a time. Frustrating!

Mike
 

John Hubby

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Thanks for the inputs, John. I guess the Horolovar 10th edition data is a little off. The plate is 1559, not 1555 as I previously posted. The stamped logo is THE NATIONAL SILVER CO and GERMANY, with serial 12648. Penudulm looks like #37, that goes back to plate 1317, same date and mfg data.

Here are the photos. If anyone has posted tips of making good clock photos without glare, reflections, etc. I would like to check them out.

Mike
Mike, thanks for the photos. Eric has already confirmed that you have a Schlenker & Posner (SuP) and not a Kundo, which I had suspected from the pendulum model number and the suspension unit photos. At the time Terwilliger identified the makers in the Repair Guide, he did not know that SuP even existed. It's obvious he thought these were just a variant of the Kundos, since they have a number of visual similarities. However, on close inspection there are really substantial differences between the two makers:
> Different pediment and finial design
> SuP upper suspension bracket No. 27 vs No. 28 (Kundo)
> Different size bracket mounting screws (SuP much larger)
> SuP has 2-Piece ratchet wheel bridge, Kundo one-piece stamped
> No center hole in the back plate (ALL Kundos have a center hole)
> SuP used the Huber tubular suspension guard (Kundo had no guard at first, introduced their square section guard in 1926)
> The movement parts are not interchangeable
> Serial number font size, SuP large and irregularly stamped, Kundo about 1/3 smaller and machine stamped
Perhaps some of the confusing similarities were that they do both use the same mainspring size and there are some dials and hands that both used. Also, they made clocks for resale to some of the same dealers such as The National Silver Co, J. Muller & Co., The J. L. Hudson Co., and The Royal Clock Co.

Your clock was made near the beginning of 1930 based on the serial number. A Kundo clock with the same serial number would have been made in early 1926.

It has been confirmed there are six back plates in the Repair Guide that were made by SuP. These include Plates 1317, 1472H, 1490, 1505, 1529, and 1559. You can mark through the Kieninger & Obergfell or Jahresuhren-Fabrik name on these plates and write in "Schlenker & Posner". The circa dates for these plates are c. 1928 for Plate 1317, 1472H, 1505 and 1529, being the first year these appear. Plates 1490 and 1559 both appear in c. 1929.

Once again, only SuP used pendulum No. 37. SuP also used a variant of No. 37, replacing the short finial under the center of the pendulum with a twist rod having a pear-shape ball at the bottom similar to but shorter than the one used by Kienzle on Pendulum No. 33.

Kundo used No. 35 and No. 41 from 1923 to 1933, then No. 47 and No. 97 from 1933 to 1939. A version of No. 47 with the twist rod replaced with the short knob found on No. 35 was used from 1929 to 1933 before the pendulum base cup was introduced.

To keep our Schlenker & Posner stories together, I am merging this thread with the "Post your Schlenker & Posner 400-Day Clocks Here" thread.
 
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clksmyhobby

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Thank, John.

Have you data to show what the correct main spring size is for this clock? The one I removed measured 18.25 mm wide and the used Kundo I inserted for testing measured 18.30 mm. Book says Kundo should be 19X38, so it is close. Fit in the barrel was good with adequate clearance from the barrel cap after a wind-up/let down. With no other changes made, the clock shows about 10 degrees more over swing in each direction. Total rotation is up to 315 degrees (from 270). I will leave it in place for a long term check, especially considering its history.

Mike
 

John Hubby

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Mike, the Horolovar mainspring specs for a 19X38 are as follows:

19mm wide x 0.41 mm thick x 1346 mm long
3/4 inch wide x 0.016 inch thick x 53 inches long

All Horolovar mainspring specs are listed on page 208 of the Horolovar 400-Day Clock Repair Guide 10th Edition.

From your report looks like the problem was a weak mainspring.
 

allens

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Hello Michael,

Can you please check if there is any eccentric nut for the pallet arbor on the front plate. My guess is that there isn’t any. All the Kundos in my collection with the adjustable eccentric have them on both the front and backplate.

I have been puzzled by :
1) different font type and size for the serial number
2) lack of a hole in the middle of the backplate
3) rounded bridge for the mainspring click ratchet wheel (Kundo has one straight edge)
4) Pediment top and finials that are different from Kundo
5) Finials for the pillars that are different from Kundo
6) A screw on nut to hold the hands instead of a pin
7) Adjusting disc on pendulum is different from Kundo

I am speculating that your clock might not have been made by Kundo.
Any thoughts John ?

Vic
 

mjstewart

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This thread goes back quite some time but it seemed like the right place to share my latest addition. A Schlenker and Posner art deco from the 30's. Plate 1529A I gather.

IMG_0216(1).jpg IMG_0217(1).jpg IMG_0218(1).jpg
 
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etmb61

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This thread goes back quite some time but it seemed like the right place to share my latest addition. A Schlenker and Posner art deco from the 30's. Plate 1529A I gather.

View attachment 537027 View attachment 537028 View attachment 537029
Very nice looking clock.

As John Hubby stated above there are six plates in the guide that are SuP clocks. The serial number of your clock makes it closer to plate 1505. That plate is drawn incorrectly with the third wheel pivot hole shown threaded and the lower suspension guard hole too low. The addition information shown below the plates is incorrect as well because they refer to JUF or Kundo clocks.

Be careful of the chapter ring. The numbers are screened on and wear off easily.

For everyone reading this thread, Chapter 168 just produced a copy of the only known SuP catalog as an educational supplement to the latest edition of the Torsion Times. There may still be copies available if you wish to join.

http://new.nawcc.org/index.php/chapter-168-international-400-day-clock-chapter

Eric
 

mjstewart

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Very nice looking clock.

As John Hubby stated above there are six plates in the guide that are SuP clocks. The serial number of your clock makes it closer to plate 1505. That plate is drawn incorrectly with the third wheel pivot hole shown threaded and the lower suspension guard hole too low. The addition information shown below the plates is incorrect as well because they refer to JUF or Kundo clocks.

Be careful of the chapter ring. The numbers are screened on and wear off easily.

For everyone reading this thread, Chapter 168 just produced a copy of the only known SuP catalog as an educational supplement to the latest edition of the Torsion Times. There may still be copies available if you wish to join.

http://new.nawcc.org/index.php/chapter-168-international-400-day-clock-chapter

Eric

Thank you very much for the info. 1505 does look right to me too. And a good reminder to get my membership renewal form off of my desk an into the mail.
 

John Hubby

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This thread goes back quite some time but it seemed like the right place to share my latest addition. A Schlenker and Posner art deco from the 30's. Plate 1529A I gather.

View attachment 537027 View attachment 537028 View attachment 537029
Mike, thanks for posting. This was my clock at one time, based on the serial number made in first half 1934. I have classified this back plate as closest to 1529, but without the "Specialty Trading Co." logo. Everything else fits exactly. Plate 1505 does have some illustration problems as Eric noted.
 

mjstewart

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Mike, thanks for posting. This was my clock at one time, based on the serial number made in first half 1934. I have classified this back plate as closest to 1529, but without the "Specialty Trading Co." logo. Everything else fits exactly. Plate 1505 does have some illustration problems as Eric noted.
Thanks for the update. You will be glad to know it is still running like a champ.
 

Rick Andrews

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Hi All
A few years ago I inherited this 400 day clock which has been in the family since my Great Grandfather. Apparently it's spring broke in the Blitz in London and it has never worked correctly since. My old man (Grandfather actually) was a superb engineer working during the war at De Havilland and Armstrong Siddely, never got the right spring for it and there wasn't this fantastic resource availlable that we call the internet.
Now it has passed to me I would love to get it working for my old man. I also am a toolmaker and currently gas engineer, so I figure I have the necessary skill but not the knowledge.
When the clock first came into my hands I took it to a local watch repair man and it came back bodged (the screw between the pendulum weights was ruined and the suspension spring appears too short and needless to say it didn't keep going for more than 15 minutes.
I recently got a new left/right screw for it off the net and consider the next step is identification so as to get the correct suspension spring. I have just spent 2 hours reading all the posts on this wonderful forum and now believe the clock to be Schlenker & Posner. The backplate is absolutely correct in detail to the plate 1317 in the book, except it has no Name on it, just the serial number 1363.
Can anyone shed more light on it for me.
I know the base needs some TLC bit the rest of the clock looks mint. Also please, I read that the spring should hold the pendulum about 1/4 imch off the base, is this correct?

Rick Andrews

IMG_0378.JPG IMG_0379.JPG IMG_0380.JPG
 

KurtinSA

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Welcome to the message board, Rick! Nice to see the clock remain with you. From what I can tell, the clock does appear to be SuP. I've not seen those kind of finials, though. They're somewhat like Kundo of the period, but doesn't have the details of the Kundo.

I think the plate might be more like 1624. Note there are many errors in the repair guide and I've made notes that this plate drawing is one of them. K&O didn't exist in 1910, so that's a mistake. There should be pallet inspection holes. I'm not sure about the open hole in the middle of the plate...it might be an error too. I have a Louvre clock with essentially the same back plate. Plate 1624 says it comes with a 4-ball pendulum...my clock has a disk pendulum...no serial number stamped on the bottom. How about yours?

I wouldn't worry about the height of the pendulum...it's within range as far as I'm concerned. The fact that the clock won't run might just be it's out of beat. But if you set the beat and the EW doesn't really "snap" from pallet to pallet, then you have a lack of power situation which will have to be remedied with an overhaul. Also, it could be that the fork needs to be moved. Too high requires excess power to run...too low and the clock will flutter and the minute hand will walk around the dial. Should be slightly above the flutter point.

The repair guide says that 1624 needs a 0.0032" spring...that's a typical K&O size, so I'm not certain of that.

Based upon some recent research, your serial number dates the clock to 1928 when SuP began producing clocks.

I might have missed a few things...hopefully someone else has sharper eyes.

Good luck with the clock!

Kurt
 
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etmb61

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Hi All
A few years ago I inherited this 400 day clock which has been in the family since my Great Grandfather. Apparently it's spring broke in the Blitz in London and it has never worked correctly since. My old man (Grandfather actually) was a superb engineer working during the war at De Havilland and Armstrong Siddely, never got the right spring for it and there wasn't this fantastic resource availlable that we call the internet.
Now it has passed to me I would love to get it working for my old man. I also am a toolmaker and currently gas engineer, so I figure I have the necessary skill but not the knowledge.
When the clock first came into my hands I took it to a local watch repair man and it came back bodged (the screw between the pendulum weights was ruined and the suspension spring appears too short and needless to say it didn't keep going for more than 15 minutes.
I recently got a new left/right screw for it off the net and consider the next step is identification so as to get the correct suspension spring. I have just spent 2 hours reading all the posts on this wonderful forum and now believe the clock to be Schlenker & Posner. The backplate is absolutely correct in detail to the plate 1317 in the book, except it has no Name on it, just the serial number 1363.
Can anyone shed more light on it for me.
I know the base needs some TLC bit the rest of the clock looks mint. Also please, I read that the spring should hold the pendulum about 1/4 imch off the base, is this correct?

Rick Andrews

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Hi Rick,

It is indeed a Schlenker & Posner. The top finials are correct for its age, as are the hands. There is a "SEPO" catalog that shows an example or your clock with a ball pendulum as No. 400 B. With a disc pendulum that would be 400 F. Their name for the model would be "PerpetuaF".

The Horolovar repair guide only shows spring sizes for ball pendulums. A typical disc will use a spring between 0.0038" and 0.0045" (0.097mm to 0.114mm) depending on how much of the mass is toward the edge. I've often had to thin a spring to get it right.

Let us know how it goes.
Eric
 
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