Post Your Schlenker & Posner 400-Day Clocks Here

Just-in-time

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Re: Can't identify Bandstand clock maker .

Hi John,

Thank you for the welcome to the forum and for the excelent information I am most gratfull to you all.

Mark
 

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Re: Can't identify Bandstand clock maker .

Thanks for the link, Mark. The eBay clock is virtually identical to yours and was made around mid-1932 based on the serial number. I hope you have some success in finding a suitable dome for your clock.
 

MartinM

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Re: Can't identify Bandstand clock maker .

Posting a clock per John's request.
SN: 14017. Pendulum 37. No thimble.
It's a Specialty Trading Co. branded clock and I'd like to confirm a couple of things regarding paint.
I left the dial as it was so the red is slightly faded. I did touch-up a couple of chipped areas of black on the numbers.
The pendulum is #37 and doesn't look to ever have been painted. Would that be correct for this brand? Or should it be a candy red?
The base reminds me of a finish on firearms called, Parkerizing. It looks like paint, but it would have had to be painted before assembly and I just don't think they could have fitted, cut and rolled the inner and outer edges if it were painted. I have paint that would give the same look; but, didn't want to go there unless it was painted, originally. With the wood in place, there aren't many options. Would that look have extended past the dome groove all the way out to the bottom? It's hard to tell due to the age.
IMG_0169.jpg IMG_0173.jpg IMG_0177.jpg
 

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Re: Can't identify Bandstand clock maker .

Posting a clock per John's request.
SN: 14017. Pendulum 37. No thimble.
It's a Specialty Trading Co. branded clock and I'd like to confirm a couple of things regarding paint.
I left the dial as it was so the red is slightly faded. I did touch-up a couple of chipped areas of black on the numbers.
The pendulum is #37 and doesn't look to ever have been painted. Would that be correct for this brand? Or should it be a candy red?
The base reminds me of a finish on firearms called, Parkerizing. It looks like paint, but it would have had to be painted before assembly and I just don't think they could have fitted, cut and rolled the inner and outer edges if it were painted. I have paint that would give the same look; but, didn't want to go there unless it was painted, originally. With the wood in place, there aren't many options. Would that look have extended past the dome groove all the way out to the bottom? It's hard to tell due to the age.
Martin, thanks for posting this clock, made in third quarter 1930 based on the serial number.

This square dial design with the filigree pattern has been documented with six different color finishes so far: Red, Green, Gold, Silver, Grey, and Blue. From the photos all have the identical design but I can't tell exactly whether they are one-piece or have removable chapter rings. Also it is not known how the color finish has been applied. One key point, however, is that in all of the other clocks documented there are no color-matched parts such as the movement support pillars or pendulum balls. From that I would say that your clock should not have any color applied to the pillars or pendulum balls.

With regard to the base, I am curious about the finish. I know what you refer to as Parkerizing and actually there were clocks made in the 1930's with that type of finish applied to various metal parts. However, I've not seen that on any 400-Day clock made in that period. In the case of SuP clocks all the bases documented to date have been polished with no evidence of a matte or applied finish.

I would prefer to polish the base in the same manner you have done with the other parts of the clock. I would not be concerned with the main rim as it should come out quite bright, using hand polishing with paste polish. However, the base cover may be brass-plated steel in which case only very light polishing should be done after first cleaning with paint remover followed by acetone to be sure any organic surface coating is removed. The result "should" be bright but again considerable care must be taken.
 

MartinM

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Re: Can't identify Bandstand clock maker .

Thanks, john. It's always good to know the details you provide.
The dial is a single stamping on a piece of very thin brass sheet that has a light horizontal brushed finish.
Anything that's not raw brass is depressed and painted, including the "GERMANY" script.
The red is a very transparent lacquer of the type used over a silver or gold base coat on cars and called candy apple.

Both the base exterior and tableau are sheet brass. The base is mated and crimped onto a steel inner shell with the wood disc sandwiched in the process.
The more I look at the base, the more I'm convinced it was painted at the factory.
There's just no way they (Or a subsequent repairer) would have been able to do the paint work after the wood was in place and have it look the way it does and it seemed like that would only make sense if it were actually some other kind of glass beaded finish or plating process that's making it look like the zinc coating you see on some cast parts, these days (Only in a brassier color).
The untouched part under the tableau cover really looks like it was sprayed on, but the outer part of the base has what I thought were marks left from spinning the base, but now I think they're just brush marks made while applying the paint as the base was spun on a turntable, that have become more apparent with age.
I'd prefer to polish it out, but that just doesn't look to be original.

I did just notice the following lightly scratched into the dome groove:
"C732F"
It's probably either an owner's mark or prior repair ticket number; but, I thought I should mention it in case it sparks anything with you.
 

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Re: Can't identify Bandstand clock maker .

Martin, thanks for the additional info about the base finish and material. I'm wondering if it is the same finish that we find on some louvre model clocks, where the base and cupula are finished with bright brass bands alternating with matte and the six columns with the fluted pieces being matte and the fittings being bright brass.

You might try cleaning and waxing the base. That will brighten it up as well as protecting the original finish. I use Black Wax to do both the cleaning and polishing on painted parts; it contains very fine pumice that smooths out any roughness without damaging the paint. Not sure it is available any longer, just did a Google search with no joy. An alternative would be coarse cheesecloth to apply a hard wax such as Renaissance or Butchers.
 

Bjx

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Re: Clock Marked Specialty Trading Co. Germany Schlenker and Posner?

Hi....I inherited this "Specialty Trading Co." Clock and was wondering if I gave you the serial number (14973) if you would know the year it was made...Your previous answer really has helped me determine who actually made the clock....thanks so much....I will upload some thumbnails also...thansk again...


tn_Bunny 036.jpg tn_Bunny 022.jpg tn_Bunny 023.jpg tn_Bunny 025.jpg
 

John Hubby

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Re: Clock Marked Specialty Trading Co. Germany Schlenker and Posner?

Hi....I inherited this "Specialty Trading Co." Clock and was wondering if I gave you the serial number (14973) if you would know the year it was made...Your previous answer really has helped me determine who actually made the clock....thanks so much....I will upload some thumbnails also...thanks again...
Bjx, welcome to the NAWCC Message Board and thanks for posting the photos of your Schlenker & Posner Louvre model clock. Based on the serial number of the movement, your clock was made in the July-September quarter of 1930.

As far as we know, only Schlenker & Posner sold 400-Day clocks to the Specialty Trading Co., and we don't know for certain much about that company except it was importing clocks to the U.S. at that time. It appears from your photos the clock is in very good condition, thanks again for posting.
 

Bjx

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Re: Clock Marked Specialty Trading Co. Germany Schlenker and Posner?

Bjx, welcome to the NAWCC Message Board and thanks for posting the photos of your Schlenker & Posner Louvre model clock. Based on the serial number of the movement, your clock was made in the July-September quarter of 1930.

As far as we know, only Schlenker & Posner sold 400-Day clocks to the Specialty Trading Co., and we don't know for certain much about that company except it was importing clocks to the U.S. at that time. It appears from your photos the clock is in very good condition, thanks again for posting.
Thanks so much John....sorry about the delay in giving this reply...pliumbing problems here that had to be attended to...Thanks again for taking time for me and answering my question...
I also inheritied a large wall clock and as soon as I take some photos, I will post them. I believe it is a Ingraham...and also a calendar clock...
 

leeinv66

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Re: Clock Marked Specialty Trading Co. Germany Schlenker and Posner?

This one just in is another Schlenker & Posner I believe. It's in pretty rough shape, but that's the way I like them:) I think it is fairly early given it has a four digit serial number (4248). Of interest to me is that it has no provision for a suspension guard. Have I identified this correctly?

[ S&P Clock 003.jpg S&P Clock 005.jpg S&P Clock 006.jpg S&P Clock 007.jpg
 

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Shayne

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Re: Clock Marked Specialty Trading Co. Germany Schlenker and Posner?

Peter Nice clock it will clean up well . Your clock is an earlier SUP with no suspension guard since the ratchet is larger than the later movements. Some of the differences i noticed earlier in doing a comparison was that the shape of the click and bracket is also different , the saddle is notched the later saddles have a threaded screw to secure the top block.

I am sure John and the others will add .

Regards
Shayne
 

John Hubby

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Re: Clock Marked Specialty Trading Co. Germany Schlenker and Posner?

This one just in is another Schlenker & Posner I believe. It's in pretty rough shape, but that's the way I like them:) I think it is fairly early given it has a four digit serial number (4248). Of interest to me is that it has no provision for a suspension guard. Have I identified this correctly?
Peter, definitely Schlenker & Posner, all complete, and a true project clock! Based on the serial number this one was made in 3rd quarter 1928, the first year of production by SuP. The lack of a suspension guard is correct, SuP didn't use them until about serial number 8001 in 2nd quarter 1929. After that all their clocks used a tubular guard, the "correct" one being the Huber patent tubular guard with a flared bottom end that would originally have been fitted with a thimble to protect the bottom block, and a slot along the full length:

9842 Mvmt Back.jpg This is an early example, serial number 9842. You can see the smaller diameter ratchet wheel mentioned below in this photo.

Shayne's comments regarding other features identifying your clock as one of the earliest models are correct, I've added other observations:

> The introduction of the suspension guard required a smaller diameter ratchet wheel so that change occurred at the same time (see above photo).

> The upper suspension bracket design on your clock was used on all clocks from initial production up to the introduction of the suspension guard. The threaded screw version was introduced at that same time, however there is some overlap for a couple of months for the two designs.

> The crown finials on your clock were used from initial production to about serial number 4300, just after your clock was made. Here are examples:

570 Dial.JPG 4389 Dial 2.JPG The first clock is serial number 570 that has the same finials as your clock, the second one is serial number 4389 with the later design finial. That one was used throughout the rest of SuP production.

The center cover on the base of your clock was originally brass plated steel. It appears all the brass is gone, so you have a couple of options. First and easiest is to find a good one from another clock, for info the JUF bases are the same dimensions so that part should be interchangeable. You could have it replated, although that might prove expensive. I have also used brass-color spray paint/lacquer to refinish them. Not as 'brilliant' as replacing or replating, but very presentable.
 

leeinv66

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Re: Clock Marked Specialty Trading Co. Germany Schlenker and Posner?

Peter Nice clock it will clean up well . Your clock is an earlier SUP with no suspension guard since the ratchet is larger than the later movements. Some of the differences i noticed earlier in doing a comparison was that the shape of the click and bracket is also different , the saddle is notched the later saddles have a threaded screw to secure the top block.

I am sure John and the others will add .

Regards
Shayne
Thanks for the confirmation Shayne! I have a later SuP in my collection, so it will be nice to add this early example for comparison.
 

leeinv66

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Re: Clock Marked Specialty Trading Co. Germany Schlenker and Posner?

Peter, definitely Schlenker & Posner, all complete, and a true project clock! Based on the serial number this one was made in 3rd quarter 1928, the first year of production by SuP. The lack of a suspension guard is correct, SuP didn't use them until about serial number 8001 in 2nd quarter 1929. After that all their clocks used a tubular guard, the "correct" one being the Huber patent tubular guard with a flared bottom end that would originally have been fitted with a thimble to protect the bottom block, and a slot along the full length:

136517.jpg This is an early example, serial number 9842. You can see the smaller diameter ratchet wheel mentioned below in this photo.

Shayne's comments regarding other features identifying your clock as one of the earliest models are correct, I've added other observations:

> The introduction of the suspension guard required a smaller diameter ratchet wheel so that change occurred at the same time (see above photo).

> The upper suspension bracket design on your clock was used on all clocks from initial production up to the introduction of the suspension guard. The threaded screw version was introduced at that same time, however there is some overlap for a couple of months for the two designs.

> The crown finials on your clock were used from initial production to about serial number 4300, just after your clock was made. Here are examples:

138041.jpg 163517.jpg The first clock is serial number 570 that has the same finials as your clock, the second one is serial number 4389 with the later design finial. That one was used throughout the rest of SuP production.

The center cover on the base of your clock was originally brass plated steel. It appears all the brass is gone, so you have a couple of options. First and easiest is to find a good one from another clock, for info the JUF bases are the same dimensions so that part should be interchangeable. You could have it replated, although that might prove expensive. I have also used brass-color spray paint/lacquer to refinish them. Not as 'brilliant' as replacing or replating, but very presentable.
Thank you John for the great information! Yes, I noted all the differences you mention when I was comparing this clock to my later version. And thanks for the heads up on the steel base plate. I had a suspicion it's colour was too brown to be tarnished brass.
 
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leeinv66

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Re: Clock Marked Specialty Trading Co. Germany Schlenker and Posner?

Just as a side note to anyone thinking of posting one of these clocks, this is NOT the way to package it!

S&P Clock 002.jpg
 

etmb61

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Re: Clock Marked Specialty Trading Co. Germany Schlenker and Posner?

Just as a side note to anyone thinking of posting one of these clocks, this is NOT the way to package it!

163547.jpg
Wow, that would explain the damage! It's heavy and brass, it must be unbreakable!

Eric
 

shutterbug

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Re: Clock Marked Specialty Trading Co. Germany Schlenker and Posner?

No way!! It came just like that, Peter? No box, nothin'?
 

leeinv66

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Re: Clock Marked Specialty Trading Co. Germany Schlenker and Posner?

No way!! It came just like that, Peter? No box, nothin'?
It arrived just as you see it Shutterbug. I count myself lucky there wasn't more damage and only the minute hand and hand nut disappeared in transit.
 

shutterbug

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Re: Clock Marked Specialty Trading Co. Germany Schlenker and Posner?

It arrived just as you see it Shutterbug. I count myself lucky there wasn't more damage and only the minute hand and hand nut disappeared in transit.
Totally unbelievable! I'm amazed it wasn't trash when you got it! What were they thinking?
 

leeinv66

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Re: Clock Marked Specialty Trading Co. Germany Schlenker and Posner?

This one just in is another Schlenker & Posner I believe. It's in pretty rough shape, but that's the way I like them:) I think it is fairly early given it has a four digit serial number (4248). Of interest to me is that it has no provision for a suspension guard. Have I identified this correctly?

[ 163470.jpg 163471.jpg 163472.jpg 163473.jpg
Sorry John!!! Seems in my rush to post this clock I screwed up on the serial number. I am pleasantly surprised to say the correct number is 1248. I should have removed the click spring before I posted:)

SuP serial number 002.jpg
 

John Hubby

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Re: Clock Marked Specialty Trading Co. Germany Schlenker and Posner?

Peter, thanks for the update and photo. Your clock is now number "7" in the database. :thumb:
 

leeinv66

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Re: Clock Marked Specialty Trading Co. Germany Schlenker and Posner?

This one just in is another Schlenker & Posner I believe. It's in pretty rough shape, but that's the way I like them:) I think it is fairly early given it has a four digit serial number (4248). Of interest to me is that it has no provision for a suspension guard. Have I identified this correctly?

163470.jpg 163471.jpg 163472.jpg 163473.jpg

Well, I still need to find the correct hands and a decent base for it, but at least now it is a functioning clock again!

SuP 400 Dater 008.jpg SuP 400 Dater 002.jpg SuP 400 Dater 004.jpg SuP 400 Dater 006.jpg SuP 400 Dater 007.jpg
 
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John Hubby

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Re: Clock Marked Specialty Trading Co. Germany Schlenker and Posner?

Well, I still need to find the correct hands and a decent base for it, but at least now it is a functioning clock again!
Great job, Pee-tah!! Regarding a replacement base, look for one from a contemporary JUF as they are virtually identical. Most likely these bases were from the same third party supplier. Here's a JUF from 1928-1930, same period as your SuP:

"G" MIG Side.jpg These aren't too difficult to find, look for a junker JUF with the double elephant logo if the movement is still with the base.

All the standard glass dome SuP clocks in my data up to serial number 6000 have spade hands; the Louvre models have the "Diamond & Pointer" hands that are typical of later standard SuP clocks. Here are two that are either side of your clock:

1010 Dial.jpg 4389 Dial 2.jpg Note that the spade end of the hands on these is "fatter" than the ones found on JUF clocks or Kundo clocks in the same time frame.
 
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leeinv66

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Re: Clock Marked Specialty Trading Co. Germany Schlenker and Posner?

Great job, Pee-tah!! Regarding a replacement base, look for one from a contemporary JUF as they are virtually identical. Most likely these bases were from the same third party supplier. Here's a JUF from 1928-1930, same period as your SuP:

171219.jpg These aren't too difficult to find, look for a junker JUF with the double elephant logo if the movement is still with the base.

All the standard glass dome SuP clocks in my data up to serial number 6000 have spade hands; the Louvre models have the "Diamond & Pointer" hands that are typical of later standard SuP clocks. Here are two that are either side of your clock:

171220.jpg 171221.jpg Note that the spade end of the hands on these is "fatter" than the ones found on JUF clocks or Kundo clocks in the same time frame.

Thanks for the information John! I have the correct hour hand, so I will only have to chase down a minute hand. The hands fitted at the moment are from a Edgar Henn coach clock.
 

shutterbug

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Re: Clock Marked Specialty Trading Co. Germany Schlenker and Posner?

How can you work on a bench as neat and organized as that, Peter? :D
 

leeinv66

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Re: Clock Marked Specialty Trading Co. Germany Schlenker and Posner?

How can you work on a bench as neat and organized as that, Peter? :D
It's easy Shutterbug. It only has to be neat and organized when you are taking pictures;)
 

Kamil Urbanowicz

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Re: Clock Marked Specialty Trading Co. Germany Schlenker and Posner?

I think more Posner Schlenker clocks than 37000 were produced. I seen an example with serial 40363 in German ebay some time ago.

Here is the pictures:

$(KGrHqN,!oMFILF)TiwqBSK1gdb7pQ~~60_58.JPG $(KGrHqR,!ooFIMmPSCLzBSK1fli0Mg~~60_58.JPG $(KGrHqVHJBMFIp1COk8HBSK1lvkkoQ~~60_58.JPG $(KGrHqZHJBoFImf4I9FfBSK1eVzHQg~~60_58.JPG $T2eC16FHJHwFG18Me!8)BSK1cvDg9g~~60_58.JPG $T2eC16N,!)sFIZ(dGR-gBSK1fK(Te!~~60_58.JPG $T2eC16RHJIkFHR3YvF3rBSK1d0CRew~~60_58.JPG


Have some in my collection also - will post pictures later.

Kamil
 

Kamil Urbanowicz

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Re: Clock Marked Specialty Trading Co. Germany Schlenker and Posner?

John I have a Posner Schlenker clock in wooden case with number 6904 and it already have the screws that hold suspension guard (it is sadly missing)- so they probably introduce it around number 6500. Is 690 made in the end of 1928 or at beggining of the 1929 - what You think?

Regards
Kamil


Peter, definitely Schlenker & Posner, all complete, and a true project clock! Based on the serial number this one was made in 3rd quarter 1928, the first year of production by SuP. The lack of a suspension guard is correct, SuP didn't use them until about serial number 8001 in 2nd quarter 1929. After that all their clocks used a tubular guard, the "correct" one being the Huber patent tubular guard with a flared bottom end that would originally have been fitted with a thimble to protect the bottom block, and a slot along the full length:

136517.jpg This is an early example, serial number 9842. You can see the smaller diameter ratchet wheel mentioned below in this photo.

Shayne's comments regarding other features identifying your clock as one of the earliest models are correct, I've added other observations:

> The introduction of the suspension guard required a smaller diameter ratchet wheel so that change occurred at the same time (see above photo).

> The upper suspension bracket design on your clock was used on all clocks from initial production up to the introduction of the suspension guard. The threaded screw version was introduced at that same time, however there is some overlap for a couple of months for the two designs.

> The crown finials on your clock were used from initial production to about serial number 4300, just after your clock was made. Here are examples:

138041.jpg 163517.jpg The first clock is serial number 570 that has the same finials as your clock, the second one is serial number 4389 with the later design finial. That one was used throughout the rest of SuP production.

The center cover on the base of your clock was originally brass plated steel. It appears all the brass is gone, so you have a couple of options. First and easiest is to find a good one from another clock, for info the JUF bases are the same dimensions so that part should be interchangeable. You could have it replated, although that might prove expensive. I have also used brass-color spray paint/lacquer to refinish them. Not as 'brilliant' as replacing or replating, but very presentable.
 
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John Hubby

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Re: Clock Marked Specialty Trading Co. Germany Schlenker and Posner?

John I have a Posner Schlenker clock in wooden case with number 6904 and it already have the screws that hold suspension guard (it is sadly missing)- so they probably introduce it around number 6500. Is 690 made in the end of 1928 or at beggining of the 1929 - what You think?

Regards
Kamil
Kamil, it is certainly possible that the suspension guards were introduced at serial numbers below 8000 and your clock should prove that is true. My database up to this point does not include any clocks having a suspension guard with serial numbers below 8001.

Regarding when your clock was made, based on my present information serial number 6904 was made near the beginning of 1929. To confirm this data point and also to provide complete documentation, please post complete photos of your clock including the back plate with the suspension guard removed, the case, dial, pendulum, etc. Be sure to provide confirmation of any written information on the back of the movement. Thanks in advance for doing this.
 

John Hubby

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Re: Clock Marked Specialty Trading Co. Germany Schlenker and Posner?

I think more Posner Schlenker clocks than 37000 were produced. I seen an example with serial 40363 in German ebay some time ago.

Here is the pictures:
Have some in my collection also - will post pictures later.

Kamil
Kamil, thanks for posting. I need to update my summary info regarding SuP clocks, some time ago I had already documented number 39221 and had expected higher numbers to appear in good time. This clock with number 40363 would have been made in 1939, assembled by Kern & Söhne, and confirms that a more likely total production would be in the order of 42,000. It appears to be made completely of SuP parts except for the pendulum, No. 33 which SuP had actually been using since 1932 but I believe purchased from Kern (at that time Kern & Link).

This clock is finished very much like the one with serial number 38955 posted earlier by Ron, although with different dials and bases. Very interesting and significant clocks from an historical perspective.
 

Kamil Urbanowicz

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Re: Clock Marked Specialty Trading Co. Germany Schlenker and Posner?

Finally have time to make some picture of it. Here they are (not great quality as the weather was really badly today).


DSC01590.jpg DSC01592.jpg DSC01594.jpg DSC01595.jpg DSC01596.jpg DSC01597.jpg DSC01598.jpg DSC01600.jpg DSC01601.jpg DSC01602.jpg DSC01604.jpg DSC01605.jpg DSC01607.jpg


What could be the date of production of it?

Regards
Kamil
 

shutterbug

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Re: Clock Marked Specialty Trading Co. Germany Schlenker and Posner?

Nice. I've always liked the front winders and wooden cases :)

Ooops! Mistook the spade hand shadow on #4 for a winding square.
 

Kamil Urbanowicz

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Re: Clock Marked Specialty Trading Co. Germany Schlenker and Posner?

Hi shutterburg ,no the clock have standard movment so sadly is not winded from the front. Can anyone date it?
 

shutterbug

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Re: Clock Marked Specialty Trading Co. Germany Schlenker and Posner?

It matches plate 1529 for the most part. My notes put that one between 1928 and 1938, and I'm sure yours will be in that general era. We'll have to see what Mr. Hubby says about that :)
 

John Hubby

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Re: Clock Marked Specialty Trading Co. Germany Schlenker and Posner?

Finally have time to make some picture of it. Here they are (not great quality as the weather was really badly today).

What could be the date of production of it?

Regards, Kamil
Kamil, thanks very much for posting the photos of your SuP clock. It is another of the unusual wood case models that SuP favored mostly during the mid-1930's that were not used by other makers. Based on the serial number it was made at the beginning of 1929.

Another item of note is that your clock has the lowest serial number yet documented that is fitted with a suspension guard. SuP used the Huber design tubular guard from that point forward throughout the rest of their production history.

Shutt has a good eye for identifying the back plate, this is identical to Plate 1529 except it has no marking other than the serial number. In my database I have designated this plate variation as Plate 1529A.

You have a marvelous clock, thanks again for posting.
 

Kamil Urbanowicz

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Re: Clock Marked Specialty Trading Co. Germany Schlenker and Posner?

Thanks John for helping with it, will post another SuP clocks soon :). Regards
 

Andre Bauer

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John Hubby

Could you give me a rough idea what movement this is and date. Purchased from England, screams K & O but I have limited information and knowledge. ( can not find in Horolovar 400 day C.R.G. ) xyzzytom_206566 xyzzytom_206567 xyzzytom_206568 xyzzytom_206569
 
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Andre Bauer

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As to add, I have taken this movement apart today.

I read somewhere a while back in the manufacturing of these clocks, crews would bid on a quota to assemble the movements for a time. They would be given a number to show their work. Numbers can be found on the inside of the front and back plates and sometimes on the movements and gears. I have found this true as I have serviced and taken apart a few clocks.

This one has "85" stamped on the inside of the front plate and "85" stamped on the main spring cover- never seen it on the main spring, before. And no marks on the movements, gears or inside of the back plate, just the outside the "4485". I don't know if helps edify the clock, but I am thinking it may help.

Regards,

Andre
 
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John Hubby

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11:24 am:

John Hubby, Could you give me a rough idea what movement this is and date. Purchased from England, screams K & O but I have limited information and knowledge. ( can not find in Horolovar 400 day C.R.G. ).

5:53 pm:

As to add, I have taken this movement apart today.

I read somewhere a while back in the manufacturing of these clocks, crews would bid on a quota to assemble the movements for a time. They would be given a number to show their work. Numbers can be found on the inside of the front and back plates and sometimes on the movements and gears. I have found this true as I have serviced and taken apart a few clocks.

This one has "85" stamped on the inside of the front plate and "85" stamped on the main spring cover- never seen it on the main spring, before. And no marks on the movements, gears or inside of the back plate, just the outside the "4485". I don't know if helps edify the clock, but I am thinking it may help.

Regards, Andre
Andre, thanks for your inquiry and posting the photos of your Louvre movement. This one was made by Schlenker und Posner (SuP), who is not listed at all in the CRG except for one plate that is attributed to JUF, Plate 1505. SuP was in business from 1928 to 1938 when they sold the machinery, materials, stocks, parts, etc to Kern & Söhne. Kern assembled SuP clocks from 1938 until they ceased production in early 1940, plus making their own clocks. They actually featured SuP clocks in one of their late 1930's catalogs and stamped some of the movements with their name and/or logo.

Based on the serial number, your clock was made about 3rd quarter 1928, SuP's first year of production. Altogether we have documented clocks with serial numbers up to above 40,000, with about the last 2,500 finished by Kern.

The correct back plate for your clock is Plate 1317 made for J. Muller & Co. Germany but without any logo or other marking. In my database I've identified that variant as Plate 1317A. There are seven back plates in the RG that are actually made by SuP:

1317
1472H
1490
1505
1529
1559
1624


The first and last three are shown to be made by Kundo, Plate 1505 is shown to be made by JUF as mentioned above. There are some variances from these plates that I have documented in sufficient number to assign a letter after each plate number as needed, that is still a work in progress so I've not published it yet.

There are a lot of similarities to Kundo clocks but also a large number of differences on close inspection. These include:

>> SuP click bridge is two piece like a GB; Kundo is stamped one piece.

>> SuP upper suspension bracket has sloped shoulders (No. 27 in RG); Kundo has round shoulders (No. 28 in RG). SuP has two versions, yours is the first with the saddle just having slots for the upper block pin to rest in. The later version as shown in No. 27 has a threaded screw to hold the block.

>> SuP upper bracket mounting screw heads are almost twice the diameter of Kundo.

>> SuP has no center hole in the back plate; Kundos all have a center hole.

>> SuP distance from centerline of mainspring arbor to centerline of first wheel pivot is 25 mm; Kundo is 26 mm. Other pivot-to-pivot dimensions are almost the same for both.

>> SuP movement support plates are angular; Kundo has rounded support plates at front.

>> Sup had their own unique movement support pillar round ball finial; Kundo used two different finials in this location.

>> SuP pediment has no perforations; Kundo has a triangular perforation in all their pediments.

>> SuP has no front plate eccentric for the escape wheel arbor front pivot; all Kundos have a front plate eccentric.

>> SuP used Huber patent tubular suspension guards starting about serial number 6901; Kundo used only their own design rectangular box shape.

>> SuP had exclusive use of pendulum No. 37 in the Repair Guide, which is shown as a Kundo but NOT. Kundo used No. 35, 41, 47, 97, and variants thereof before WWII.

>> SuP also used pendulum No. 33 (Kienzle original design), likely purchased from Kern & Link and intermixed with No. 37 starting mid-1934. Many of these had balls painted to match movement support columns and dials.

>> SuP had several unique cases for their clocks not found with other makers. One was a square dome 4-post Louvre model exclusive to SuP. Others include Art Deco design wood cases, round top wood cases, etc.

There is more info about the company in earlier posts, would be worth your time to read through.

You mentioned in another thread you had a Louvre case that you are considering to install a GB movement. Check to see if this movement matches the mounting holes in that case and you might have an "instant match". SuP used the same standard Louvre case as JUF, Kundo, Kienzle and Becker; you would need to find a No. 37 4-Ball pendulum for the clock to be correct.

Regarding the numbers stamped on movement parts, I agree there were production batch numbers or worker group numbers stamped on many makers' clocks and probably for the reason you mention. In the instance of SuP, however, it appears the only numbers found are the last two digits of the serial number and in the locations you found with this movement. I've not found other numbers anywhere in their movements.
 

Andre Bauer

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Thank you John, You are a wealth of information like always...... waiting for the book your publishing :cuckoo:ill start looking for pendulum for this movement.

One question, for now....... why no Badische or Kienzle Torsion threads?


Thanks again,
 

John Hubby

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One question, for now....... why no Badische or Kienzle Torsion threads?
There are different reasons for not having threads for these makers, nor Huber at least for the time being:

Badische

As best we can determine, the only 400-Day clocks actually made by Badische were the Rombach patent weight driven year clocks made in 1904-05. Aside from that there is no evidence that Badische actually manufactured 400-Day clock movements even though they assembled clocks and had them in their sale catalogs.

From 1901 to about 1912, Badische purchased movements and complete clocks from Andreas Huber (1901-03), JUF (1902-1912), and Ph. Hauck (1904-1906). From 1912 until 1928 they purchased movements and complete clocks from Andreas Huber, ALL of which were the lantern pinion variety patented by Huber.

I have preferred to focus on the makers of the movements sold to Badische rather than the company itself, since they were at best an assembler. We also know that Bowler & Burdick were an assembler, however the produced some quite unique clocks and thus have deserved a separate focus.

Huber

The identification of Huber clocks has several issues. First is the clocks they made from 1896-1903 were virtual carbon copies of the Harder patent clocks that were made by JUF from 1882 to 1900; there were only subtle differences and neither one used serial numbers during Huber's early production. By compiling a large number of examples and verifying source material we have essentially found a way to identify these clocks that has been discussed here in other threads.

Huber focused on research and patents throughout their history but evidently did not make any clocks from 1904 to about 1910. They patented the pin pallet escapement and lantern pinions applied to 400-Day clocks in 1911 and 1912 respectively, and resumed manufacture of clocks at that time continuing with quite large production until 1928. These clocks were made for their own sales, for Kienzle, and for Badische. When one disassembles movements made in the same period that have the three maker's name or logo stamps, they absolutely interchangeable thus the conclusion that Huber made all of them.

I will likely compile a Huber thread in a few months after I complete some additional source searches.

Kienzle

Kienzle clocks are based largely on the designs pioneered by W. Würth & Co. Being located near each other in the same city it was logical there would be exchange of information, and in fact Würth patented a number of features that were licensed by Kienzle, too many to list or discuss here. Kienzle also started their serial numbering of their own clocks at 100001, which confused things greatly since they also made clocks for third parties with low serial number series. This has largely been sorted out and we now have some confidence that dating information we provide is reasonably accurate.

One factor we have found is that Kienzle, more than most, worked with other makers and exchanged or swapped production. That started with Würth, very quickly included Huber and a number of third party traders so we find Kienzle movements stamped with quite a few logos. Again this is largely sorted out now so it's time to compile a Kienzle thread. This one will likely come sooner than the one for Huber.
 

Patch

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My latestaddition: JUF

This is my newest addition. A circa 1918 JUF Bandstand. Serial # 31183. It came with what I believe is a newer Haller pendulum, that made it run, way to fast. The base, has been beat up from years of stress cracks. I reinforced it with a few thin brass plates, and PC-11 epoxy. (It isn't pretty, but it'll keep the base intact. Hopefully until, I'm long gone.
I replaced the Haller pendulum with a spare disk pendulum, and have it regulated to within a minute a week. Bandstand 1.jpg Bandstand 6.jpg Bandstand 2.jpg Bandstand 3.jpg Bandstand 4.jpg Bandstand 5.jpg
 
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etmb61

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Re: My latestaddition: JUF

I'm not sure the serial number you have is in the range for a JUF clock. Could you post a picture of the back plate?

Eric
 

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Re: My latestaddition: JUF

Patch, I agree with Eric. Your clock appears to be either a Kundo or a Schlenker & Posner (SuP); my observations lean strongly toward SuP for several reasons:

Here is what it's not:

1) Not a Kern & Link nor Kern & Söhne since neither of those used serial numbers nor the dial or hands that are found on your clock, even though they did use the pendulum design.

2) Not a JUF, the serial number is too low. JUF serial numbers start at 50001 at the beginning of 1907 to about 165000 at the end of 1922, after that no serial numbers. Also, no JUF has been documented with the dial or hands on your clock.

3) Not a Kienzle, same story. Kienzle serial numbers start at 100001 about mid-1907 and go up to about 188000 in 1929 at the time they sold the business to Kern & Link; no examples of Kienzle clocks have been found with the same dial design or hands.

4) Not a Becker (serial numbers and dial design again)

5) Not a Huber; although the serial numbers of one of the Huber movement designs were from 1 in 1915 to 48000 in 1928 and they did use the Kienzle pendulum on some of these clocks, none have been documented with the same dial or hands in that period.

Here are the clues pointing to SuP:

1) To the best of my knowledge Kundo and SuP were the only companies that used the dial and hands seen on your clock. I have never seen it on any Becker, Huber, JUF, Kienzle, Kern & Link, or Kern & Söhne clock.

2) Kundo never used the pendulum now with your clock which appears to be the original Kienzle design from 1916. That design was taken over by Kern & Link in 1929 and then Kern & Söhne in 1937 (and used by them well after WWII), but it was also used by SuP from about 1932 to 1939.

3) The bandstand parts (cupola finials, post beads and post caps) being lacquered in matching colors to the dial is a typical decor for SuP Louvre (bandstand) clocks; most of these also have the pendulum balls lacquered to match. I have documented 11 SuP Louvre clocks with this trim, four of which had the same pendulum as with your clock. No Kundo Louvre model clocks have been found with this type of matching color trim.

Some good photos of the movement will tell the story, I've kind of bet the store here just from seeing the front of the clock. Also, a photo of the rating nut on the top of the "Haller" pendulum will help identify what you have.

Finally, if it "is" a SuP you need to put back the 4-Ball pendulum that came with it; I think it is original to the clock as noted in point 2 of the "Clues" pointing to SuP. SuP never used disc pendulums, only pendulums No. 37 (exclusive to SuP) and No. 33 from the Repair Guide.
 
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Patch

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Re: My latestaddition: JUF

Thanks to you both. I won't deny, that I was like a kid on Christmas morning when I got this clock. (ever since I laid eyes on one of these. I wanted one.)
So finding the wrong plate template, is highly likely. It definitely won't be the first, or last time, that I've wrongly identified, an older clock.
I'll get photos of the movement and pendulum, later today.
 

Patch

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Re: My latestaddition: JUF

Patch, I agree with Eric. Your clock appears to be either a Kundo or a Schlenker & Posner (SuP); my observations lean strongly toward SuP for several reasons:

Here is what it's not:

1) Not a Kern & Link nor Kern & Söhne since neither of those used serial numbers nor the dial or hands that are found on your clock, even though they did use the pendulum design.

2) Not a JUF, the serial number is too low. JUF serial numbers start at 50001 at the beginning of 1907 to about 165000 at the end of 1922, after that no serial numbers. Also, no JUF has been documented with the dial or hands on your clock.

3) Not a Kienzle, same story. Kienzle serial numbers start at 100001 about mid-1907 and go up to about 188000 in 1929 at the time they sold the business to Kern & Link; no examples of Kienzle clocks have been found with the same dial design or hands.

4) Not a Becker (serial numbers and dial design again)

5) Not a Huber; although the serial numbers of one of the Huber movement designs were from 1 in 1915 to 48000 in 1928 and they did use the Kienzle pendulum on some of these clocks, none have been documented with the same dial or hands in that period.

Here are the clues pointing to SuP:

1) To the best of my knowledge Kundo and SuP were the only companies that used the dial and hands seen on your clock. I have never seen it on any Becker, Huber, JUF, Kienzle, Kern & Link, or Kern & Söhne clock.

2) Kundo never used the pendulum now with your clock which appears to be the original Kienzle design from 1916. That design was taken over by Kern & Link in 1929 and then Kern & Söhne in 1937 (and used by them well after WWII), but it was also used by SuP from about 1932 to 1939.

3) The bandstand parts (cupola finials, post beads and post caps) being lacquered in matching colors to the dial is a typical decor for SuP Louvre (bandstand) clocks; most of these also have the pendulum balls lacquered to match. I have documented 11 SuP Louvre clocks with this trim, four of which had the same pendulum as with your clock. No Kundo Louvre model clocks have been found with this type of matching color trim.

Some good photos of the movement will tell the story, I've kind of bet the store here just from seeing the front of the clock. Also, a photo of the rating nut on the top of the "Haller" pendulum will help identify what you have.

Finally, if it "is" a SuP you need to put back the 4-Ball pendulum that came with it; I think it is original to the clock as noted in point 2 of the "Clues" pointing to SuP. SuP never used disc pendulums, only pendulums No. 37 (exclusive to SuP) and No. 33 from the Repair Guide.
I'm glad, "that I'm not a betting man I would've lost the farm, on this one.
Mr. Hubby, you were correct, on the pendulum.
Here are the pictures. I haven't compared the back plate again with the guide.
I'm wrong. But, still excited about having this clock!
Bandstand 7.jpg Bandstand 8.jpg Bandstand 9.jpg Bandstand 10.jpg t
 

Randy Beckett

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Re: My latestaddition: JUF

You should be excited and proud of this one. I know I would be. Very nice and the base seemed to turn out nice as well.
 

etmb61

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Re: My latestaddition: JUF

Now that looks like an SuP to me. I would also add that the ball pendulum looks correct for an SuP clock in everything except the center finial (it should be threaded I think).

Eric
 
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John Hubby

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Re: My latestaddition: JUF

I'm glad, "that I'm not a betting man I would've lost the farm, on this one.
Mr. Hubby, you were correct, on the pendulum.
Here are the pictures. I haven't compared the back plate again with the guide.
I'm wrong. But, still excited about having this clock!
Patch, you have good reason to be excited. This one appears to be all original, the only thing missing is the suspension guard which will be one of the tubular guards with a flared bottom, not too difficult to find. Based on the movement serial number, your clock was made in 1st quarter 1935.

Your pendulum is a Kienzle design No. 33 and as I mentioned earlier has been documented with SuP clocks starting in 1932 and all the way to 1939, so it is correct. In fact from the end of 1934 until the last one assembled in 1939 nearly all SuP clocks found in that period were fitted with the No. 33 pendulum. SuP started production in 1928 using pendulum No. 37, which was exclusively their design and "not" a Kundo, and used that model for nearly all their clocks up to the end of 1934. A few continued to be found until 1937, after that only the no. 33 has been found with SuP clocks.

NOTE: We found later that what appears to be Kienzle pendulum No. 33 turns out to be a SuP pendulum, with the bottom finial of a standard SuP pendulum No. 37 replaced with a twist rod and pear-shape ball at the bottom. I have designated this pendulum as SuP Pendulum No. 37A.

The back plate is Plate 1529 but without the Specialty Trading Company Germany name. Plate 1529 is shown to be made by Kundo c. 1912 but actually is SuP c. 1928-32. The same plate design but without any name or other mark I have listed in my database as Plate 1529A c. 1929-39 with appropriate footnotes. There is a listing of all the plates that are actually SuP instead of Kundo or JUF in the "Post Your Schlenker & Posner 400-Day Clocks Here" thread that gives the correct identification and variants that have been documented so far.

As a quick review of the unique differences between your SuP movement and a Kundo, here is a brief list. Some are quickly obvious, some not:

1) Upper suspension bracket No. 37 is SuP, has "sloped" shoulders. Kundo is No. 38 and has round shoulders.

2) Upper suspension bracket mounting screw heads are 30% larger diameter than Kundo.

3) Only two suspension guard mounting holes in straight vertical line at center, Kundo has three with one to left and two to right of center.

4) No center hole in the back plate, all pre-WWII Kundos have a center hole.

5) Ratchet bridge is made of two parts in a lozenge shape very similar to GB, Kundo bridge is a stamped single piece.

6) Serial number is hand stamped in large font (irregular spacing, etc), Kundo is machine stamped in small font (even spacing, straight line).

7) All SuP's have a serial number, Kundo also except for clocks made from early 1939

8) Most SuP movement have no name or logo especially after 1933, Kundo has name or logo on all movements.

9) Spacing between the mainspring barrel arbor centerline and first wheel pivot center is 25 mm, Kundo's are all 26 mm.

There are a number of other differences with other parts of SuP clocks compared to Kundo, also listed in the above-mentioned thread.

You have a great clock, show us photos after you have it completely cleaned up.
 
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