Post your quartz clock matters here

[lmester]

Not familiar with how to post but i think imester or tinker dwight can help me. Any other comments welcome.
2 clocks w issues:
Chrometron 2000 i have two of these, one no tick at all, the second ticks double speed (i have not timed it but it feels double)

Jaz tuning fork with broken coils wires (one of two coils between the forks had come undone and was loose) definitely broke the 2 hair thin wires that pwr that coil. It's the green one, both were just glued to the plastic plate, so unrobust for such a robustly built clock.

I tried attaching 3 photos, not sure if successful...

Any advice / help appreciated.
Jc

Here is some info on the Chrometron: Staiger Chrometron CQ 2000

Do you have any electronics test equipment available? To do any circuit testing you'll need at least a multimeter.

For the double speed clock you may have a problem with the frequency divider circuit. I'd verify that it's properly generating the 1Hz coil impulse signal.

 

[Berry Greene]

Excellent Martin! S/steel is a challenge in all sorts of ways. So is soldering fine wires. Hence better without any heat.

 

[jchang76]

Great, any input and given input much appreciated! When i get a chance i will reattach the broken coil on the tuning fork movement snd attempt to trace the broken end on the spool, hopefully i can coax a loop free snd use the conductive glue method. Will post update.
On the chrometrons i will research how to test the components, the great part is that they are so neat snd substantial components snd i have access now to the very thorough circuit diagrams from harmut wymen's website on electric clocks snd watches.
I have a decent multimeter that does frequency. Hopefully within its range bc the lower freq on these old quartz cans.
I do not know how to test a divider nor which are the dividers but i will be conservative, i repair and restore artwork snd magicians apparatus for work, in addition to new fabrication for magicians ranging from sword boxes to small electronic "gaffs" as they call it (e.g. RF transmitter to actuate servos and solenoids)...
So, thanks again, will post results (slow burn project) , glad people are reading and commenting!
Jc

 

[Berry Greene]

Its magic! I always thought it was. How can you trust anything you can't see? Electricity and magnetism - Victorians loved them both. Mirrors; convex glass mirrors; It's magic! Radio waves; crystals; electronic balances...... Yawn!
What time is it? Vanish!

 

[kinsler33]

This is interesting, but I don't understand what's going on because I just started receiving these quartz clock posts and cannot trace them back, probably because they're in a sub-forum, if that's a real thing. If I look for previous posts I get stuff on other topics, including something I wrote about soldering flux.

Does anyone know how this is supposed to be set up? I do lots and lots of quartz and electric clocks, it seems.

M Kinsler

 

[Berry Greene]

Hi Martin. Well it does say quartz at the heading. We have drifted a bit with electric pendulums, balances, and electronics. I think there is a better thread for you than this. I thanked you for the soldering post because soldering S/s is normally a no no. There's a mix-up somewhere as your post isn't here.
My quip was in response to the magician work that Jchang also does.

Answer to JCHANG
I suppose the only real test for a chip ripple through divider is with an oscilloscope and high impedance probe. However although you may not see the input crystal frequency any other way, you can see the results of the division when it gets slow enough. It's all binary division by stages. Divide by 2 - divide by 2 - divide by 2 and ever onward until you end up with a slow pulse usually at precisely 1 sec intervals. You can see this with a high resistance Voltmeter but its not a complete test.
BjG

 

[lmester]

jchang76,

A basic test would be to connect your multimeter to pins 7 and 8 on the right SAJ170 chip shown in the schematic. This is probably the chip farthest from the crystal. I'm assuming that the schematic matches the PC board layout. You should see a change in your meter reading once per second. If you don't get any change, try monitoring pins 7,8 on the other the other SAJ170 chip. If you have the wrong chip, the frequency will be too high to see anything with a multimeter. If you see one second pulses, the dividers are probably working properly.

Also, It's rare for a frequency divider circuit to fail and give an incorrect frequency. The common failure is that it stops providing pulses. Much more likely is a mechanical problem with the clock. Or, possibly a problem with the coil drive circuit. The coil drive circuit has a 25K potentiometer to adjust the coil drive pulse. You could try adjusting it. Mark it's position before adjusting. If adjustment doesn't solve the problem, set it back to it's original position.



The crystal is the big metal can on the left edge of the circuit board. The second part with a screwdriver slot is the 25K potentiometer. The first part (nearest to the crystal) with a screwdriver slot is a trim capacitor used to fine tune the oscillator frequency. DO NOT adjust this unless you have a precision timebase available.





And, as Berry Greene said, the best way to test the divider is with an Oscilloscope. Or, if available, a frequency counter.

I was testing a quartz clock while I replied to this post. Below is a picture of my frequency counter monitoring the clock. It's frequency is very close to 1 Hz.

 

[Jack Dully]

Re: The best quartz (fake) torsion pendulum drive that I have seen.

The best I've seen is the Kundo quartz movement, which is much simpler than the Haller shown above. Its action is natural, and mimics the behavior of a "real" pendulum quite well, because it works the same way.

View attachment 450939 View attachment 450940

It has a regular suspension spring, but instead of a fork it has a single pin projecting from the spring into the movement. The pendulum is impulsed in one direction only by a single-toothed wheel (red arrow) that is spring-loaded, and gives a push to the pin on the suspension spring. The only difference between the Kundo and a "real" pendulum is that the impulsing force is independent of the time-keeping part of the movement.

View attachment 168390 View attachment 168391

bangster,thank you.I spent hours looking for this fake torsion pendulum drive on line.My uncle passed and he wanted me to have his favorite clock.The clock he gave me is a Koma anniversary mantel clock with a rotating pendulum ,4 balls.I guess it's from the 50's.He had it converted over to quartz,running on a C cell. So I cleaned it up and it keeps perfect time.He would be happy to see it working again with a new suspension spring and all shiny.I just can't figure how to set up with the pendulum to get it to spin as it should. The little lever attached to the spring that is caught by the geared tooth I understand but do you twist the pendulum to set it up I am afraid of breaking the spring or the movement.Your photo is exactly what I am seeing so it must be Kundo movement.Your help would be greatly appreciated,for me and my uncle.Thanks my email is jdully46@optimum.net

 

[Cheezhead]

This is a second preliminary post following my posts # 53 and # 122 speculating that a lithium AA battery can power my small travel alarm for 9 years. Please refer to the prior posts and photos. The lithium battery was installed on 2/20/2012.

I found a inexpensive way to check my $20 Velleman DVM850BL DMM to accurately monitor battery voltage. I used a voltage regulator IC output from Ebay that was apparently hand picked for accuracy and had bought two of them for 5 bucks each. The regulator was specified as a REF-586 5V + - 2.5 mv High Precision Voltage Reference by Fluke 8846. Each produced 5.000 volts using the Velleman meter on the 20 volt scale. Assuming the voltage standards as accurate, the Velleman read .004 volts high on the 2 volt scale as follows. One of the ICs was powered with a well-filtered 13.7 volt dc power supply with five precision 200 ohm 1/4 watt resistors chosen from twenty also from Ebay, wired in series to make a 5 m.a. load for the 5 volt IC output. Rated IC output was 10 m.a.

The Velleman meter read 1.004 vdc across one of the five precision 200 ohm resistors on the 2 volt scale to confirm that the it reads 0.4% higher than the previously mentioned Fluke DMM in my post # 122 with calibration traceable to NIST.

The clock battery voltage was 1.716 vdc on Feb. 22, 2020 to indicate that there is battery life remaining and that the 9 year battery life goal and even longer appears easily possible. Refer to Fig. 14 for the 1 m.a. Continuous Discharge Curve on the Energizer reference site although the current draw of the clock is not known. A cheap oscilloscope from Ebay could tell a bit more about current draw.

 

[kinsler33]

A cheap oscilloscope from Ebay could tell a bit more about current draw.

So could the voltage across one or two of your precision resistors if they were connected in series with the battery and the clock. To get an average, you'd connect a largish electrolytic capacitor across the resistors such that they, the capacitor, and your voltmeter are all in parallel. You'd lose some voltage at the clock terminals, but likely not enough to matter much.

I mention it principally because the concept of 'cheap oscilloscope' doesn't register so well if you're my age, even though I know they're widely available, and small, and fairly fast, and really, really cheap. Newer electronics are amazing.

Mark Kinsler

 

[Simon Holt]

All my work 'til now has been on mechanical clocks.

Someone asked me to establish why the minute hand on their large quartz wall clock wouldn't advance up the left-hand side of the clock (i.e. when the effect of gravity was acting against the hand). Apart from the fact that the battery was down to 0.99 Volts, when I was working on it the minute-hand tube (terminology?) came out of the movement along with the minute hand:

I pushed it back in and the clock is working normally, although I can pop it out again easily. Is that normal?

Simon

 

[kinsler33]

In general, the minute-hand arbor ought to be staked in fairly securely. Given the prices--at least over here--replace the movement with a high-torque continuous-sweep one. That is, use a high-torque movement if it's one of these huge wall clocks with a minute hand longer than maybe six inches (use the catalog, if any, for guidance) and use a continuous-sweep movement if possible because they don't make any noise.

It's not clear, however, if your present hands are the push-on type or the I-hand type. The former does not use a hand nut, the latter "I-hand" type uses either a knurled ring nut or knurled cap nut. Some old hands have to be adapted to fit new movements.

Mark Kinsler

 

[Berry Greene]

Hello Simon.

I thought I could help until I saw your photo. It is not immediately familiar. Is it a Kienzle? Has the movement got a maker? Do I see a second hand arbour there? Before you started was the mechanism still tic-ing? With a low voltage battery (that is below the normal threshold of 1.1V), you can sometimes see the second had trying to move but failing with a little jerk. The motor is being pulsed but hasn't the strength to actually step. Its a stepping motor that receives pulses - usually once per second although there is a current trend for sweep action second hands which receive around 8 pulses / second.

Generally the older European & Japanese movements are fairly well made when you compare them to some of the later Chinese efforts. My experience has been that electronic failures are way above mechanical breakdown. More tricky to impossible then to fix. Although plastic/nylon is often used generally there is a similarity with older metal clocks in that there is a motion-works with a cannon for the hour hand that surrounds the minute hand drive. You would not normally be able to pull it out. I'm thinking there is a mixture of plastic (nylon) and metal (brass) here. If it had already pulled out that would explain why the minute hand wasn't being driven. You could be lucky I suppose and just pushing it back will serve OK. I wouldn't keep doing it!

However, if this is of the square plastic type movement you might do better to replace it. They are cheap as chips on ebay. There are different length central fixings and I believe some are "high torque" to suit the larger clocks such as this one sounds as if it could be. Still quite a low cost item. The hands are not necessarily a standard fitting however and you will have to watch out for that if you choose that route.

If you want to risk dismantling the unit just beware of static electricity damage. If you work by or on an earthed metal surface like the cooker, w/m, or metal sink unit all will be well as they SHOULD be earthed. {W/m needs the plug to be inserted which is what can make them dangerous. A hard-wired separate earth is much better. Genuine horology tip!}. Take over the kitchen - be popular with the missus! Touch the metal objects mentioned frequently as you work to discharge yourself. Yes there are other even better ways. Charges can build up to be many thousands of volts and the spark they can generate will damage the delicate electronics. Strictly speaking you should observe this even to swap the battery. Be aware that because you don't feel it doesn't mean the voltage isn't there.

Most of the square plastic box type have plastic clips. Slide a thin piece of plastic or broken clock spring under to lever them off their hooks without straining them more than is needed - as they break off easily. There are always two sometimes a third on the battery side. Pry gently at the joint. If the wheels and gears pop out it will be more difficult but not impossible. (So long as you don't lose any! Use a digital camera just as you would with any strange clock to serve as a reference for where things go. Occasionally the back is retained by screws. If so this is a superior older movement. Jungans and Keinzle were popular but I have also seen Smiths and Metamec specimens.

When you have it apart you may be able to reassemble the broken part with some suitable glue. Just maybe you could do the same thing without dismantling it at all. A tiny spot of glue. What glue? Dunno but I still favour industrial super-glue over most other choices. Just saying like!
Good luck and I hope I have helped.
BerryG

 

[roughbarked]

Yes. There are a lot of battery wall clocks made with hands too big for the movement fitted. For these, replace with Hi-Torque movements.
The centre shaft issue relates to the nylon it is pressed into, cracking = new movement.

There may be heaps of cheap as chips quartz clock movements out there but experience tells. Only buy the ones that you have tested to be reliable. Most of them aren't.

 

[Simon Holt]

Thanks Mark, Berry & roughbarked.

More pictures:

The make is Young Town Quartz (Chinese). The hand fixing is a knurled cap nut, and the minute hand is 13" long (9" from centre to tip; I presume the other four inches are a counterbalance?).

This is a clock that was brought into the Repair Café where I volunteer. The owner is prepared to pay for a new movement if that's what it needs, but there is a general culture of repair rather than replace where possible, for ecological reasons.

I don't feel it warrants taking it apart, but if glue will solve the looseness then that's worth a go. Nothing to lose really!

Simon

 

[roughbarked]

OK, I've literally got big boxes full of movements that have been kept when the policy was to change movement rather than repair. They simply aren't worth repair if anything is broken. Yes they are mostly repairable with a clean and re-oil. Many only need contacts cleaned or wire replaced from leaky batteries.
Why not find another movement that has been tossed away that will work with simple re-oiling. Many of the movements I have changed for customers, after the custoomer takes the clock, I'm left with a movement that works with a couple of drops of the correct oil.

I'm a big watcher of the repair shop and yes they do try to keep things original or clean it back to original but if something is broken, find a new part. bog up a ceramic bowl with panelbeater's bog and paint it to look original. Some things aren't worth repair, which actually means that the repairer cannot guarantee that the repair will last.
Basic rule, if plastic is broken and oily, chuck it in the recycle plastic bin.

 

[Berry Greene]

Hi Roughbarked & Simon.

No argument there. They are total rubbish! Get what you pay for BUT I can't find any upmarket types. This is why I struggle to keep the older German and Japanese movements working. Graft in pcb's from Chinese variety. No small chips to make it. H bridge drive means too large in most instances. No other answers yet. Pending research project.

Oh it has a pendulum Simon. Yes they are available but with sweep second hands. Two types separate or shared battery. Pendulum quite greedy of current IMHO. Again not seen any decent offerings. I have one I fitted to a grandmother style clock that did have electronic chimes. The chimes still sound but not the clock itself. Scoped around the multipinned surface mounted chip. Oscillator running (xtal) but no pulse output. New one approx £50. I won't pay that for electronics anything!

Snap Simon! I also do the Repair Cafe here in Chichester. Idealists recruited me! As you know much electronic equipment isn't made to be repaired. I come from a different era when it was. However, it was ever difficult. Now there's a spares famine too. I have swapped a few digital clock movements. I gave them in the cause of charity and the world. I'm just all heart me!
BjG

 

[roughbarked]

OK. In the first image you showed that the metal insert had come loose from the nylon wheel and that when you pushed it back in it could still come out. If you can see a crack, then likely the thing is now NBG (no bloody good). If no crack is visible then maybe putting a burr on the brass bit may hold it tight enough. In all these cheap quartz clock movements, it is the hands and the shafts they fit on that give the most trouble.

You may note that I never mention glues. There is a reason for that.

 

[Berry Greene]

My wife is gonna love you Roughbarked. She says I should never be let near glue or paint!

 

[Simon Holt]

OK. In the first image you showed that the metal insert had come loose from the nylon wheel and that when you pushed it back in it could still come out. If you can see a crack, then likely the thing is now NBG (no bloody good). If no crack is visible then maybe putting a burr on the brass bit may hold it tight enough. In all these cheap quartz clock movements, it is the hands and the shafts they fit on that give the most trouble.

You may note that I never mention glues. There is a reason for that.

I'll take a closer look under a microscope tomorrow to see if I can see a crack. Light burring sounds like a good idea - I also thought about a couple of turns of PTFE tape.

Simon

 

[kinsler33]

The Young Town seems to be a good movement. I've used the YT high-torque, no-second-hand movements that Ronnel offers, though that'll be of little use in the UK. For a pendulum, buy a pendulum driver. These usually fit around a mini-sized quartz movement and seem quite trouble-free.

For what it's worth, I've seen more failures with Hermle's quartz movements than perhaps any others. They get replaced with Asian movements. And yes: if your quartz clockworks are okay--test them by applying a 1.5v battery across the coil terminals--then you can certainly graft the electronics from a sacrificial quartz movement thereupon.

Note that, if you have access to Timesavers, these el-cheato washers are great for hand conversions: I-Shaft Conversion Washer 10-Pack. I'm using them to convert AC electric clocks, which have regrettably become fire hazards, to quartz movements. (That old motor insulation just disintegrates.)

These little movements are thoroughly remarkable feats of engineering. But any nylon gear that has failed is, in my experience, impervious to repair and really has to be replaced.

Mark Kinsler

 

[Berry Greene]

Good points well made Mark and thanks. I am finding the sweep (8pps) movements use up batteries PDQ. It could be that they aren't all the same. Surely depends on QC and I doubt there is any!
I have no current drain figures thus far as it is too low for a digital meter. I need to rig a series resistor and measure across that I suppose.
Have you got any figures?
Rgds BerryG

 

[kinsler33]

Good points well made Mark and thanks. I am finding the sweep (8pps) movements use up batteries PDQ. It could be that they aren't all the same. Surely depends on QC and I doubt there is any!
I have no current drain figures thus far as it is too low for a digital meter. I need to rig a series resistor and measure across that I suppose.
Have you got any figures?
Rgds BerryG

Zilch, I'm afraid.

Quality control isn't too bad. The electromagnets are wound, dozens at a time, on a rather amazing machine, and the electronics--an oscillator and a fifteen-stage divider--are by this time ancient technology. Typically the mechanicals either work or they don't, though there certainly can be molding and/or assembly errors.

I have also recently discovered that while store-brand and other inexpensive alkaline AA cells have for years been as reliable as, say, EverReady and them, this may no longer be the case. I've recently had some unexpected failures among these, though it's unlikely I'll begin using the expensive variety.

M Kinsler
mostly staying clear of the non-electric clock repair group, which has once again gone into the weeds.

 

[roughbarked]

The Young Town seems to be a good movement. I've used the YT high-torque, no-second-hand movements that Ronnel offers, though that'll be of little use in the UK. For a pendulum, buy a pendulum driver. These usually fit around a mini-sized quartz movement and seem quite trouble-free.

For what it's worth, I've seen more failures with Hermle's quartz movements than perhaps any others. They get replaced with Asian movements. And yes: if your quartz clockworks are okay--test them by applying a 1.5v battery across the coil terminals--then you can certainly graft the electronics from a sacrificial quartz movement thereupon.

Note that, if you have access to Timesavers, these el-cheato washers are great for hand conversions: I-Shaft Conversion Washer 10-Pack. I'm using them to convert AC electric clocks, which have regrettably become fire hazards, to quartz movements. (That old motor insulation just disintegrates.)

These little movements are thoroughly remarkable feats of engineering. But any nylon gear that has failed is, in my experience, impervious to repair and really has to be replaced.

Mark Kinsler

Hard to make any hand change by hand any cheaper. Costs more than that in time to cut that bit off another hand and glue or solder it on.

 

[roughbarked]

Good points well made Mark and thanks. I am finding the sweep (8pps) movements use up batteries PDQ. It could be that they aren't all the same. Surely depends on QC and I doubt there is any!
I have no current drain figures thus far as it is too low for a digital meter. I need to rig a series resistor and measure across that I suppose.
Have you got any figures?
Rgds BerryG

As to batteries first instance is where do you source them from and in what quantities.

Quartz clock movements should use batteries suited to their usage rates. No point putting torch batteries in them.

 

[roughbarked]

My wife is gonna love you Roughbarked. She says I should never be let near glue or paint!

I'm sure she'd love me anyway.

 

[Simon Holt]

If you can see a crack, then likely the thing is now NBG (no bloody good).

Good call, roughbarked. Here's the image from my USB microscope, with what looks like a crack in the innermost tube:

I've nothing to lose here if it's NBG so - don't be too hard on me - I've put a trace of superglue gel on that removable brass spigot, right where its widest part would appear to want to sit on the top part of that innermost tube. I'll leave it for 24 hours and see if I've wrecked it...

The Young Town seems to be a good movement. I've used the YT high-torque, no-second-hand movements that Ronnel offers, though that'll be of little use in the UK. For a pendulum, buy a pendulum driver. These usually fit around a mini-sized quartz movement and seem quite trouble-free.

That's useful info, Mark; thanks. The Young Town 12888 movements (now I know what I'm looking for) are available on Ebay here in the UK, but all of the images show the hand fitment to be the push-on style and the wording doesn't give me any clue as to whether the style I want (I-hand) is available as an alternative. Some adverts say 'Chinese-style hand fitment". Is that the push-fit style?

Simon

 

[Berry Greene]

Hi to all. Enjoying your responses.

Ignorance on my part has me asking what type of very low drain battery IS best for these movements? Maybe I have got this wrong as I reach for cheap alkaline's that have usually been OK. They aren't the best bet are they? Ah but at least they don't leak!

I'm a fossil and came up with dry Lechanche cells that were pretty useless as a cycle lamp battery. Worst still they would leak and corrode. That, surely, is also an issue. However they thrived on low drain intermittent use. It was quite common to encounter them in door bells and radio grid-bias functions for literally years. Not even sure if you can still buy them.

Of recent times I have bought industrial Duracell's on-line. Not up to much in any size. {AAA; AA; C or D}. I've had better results from Alkaline batteries from Lidl called Aerocell. Its a German store but the source of manufacture isn't explicitly given. Asda also do a range of "Long Life" cells that work well in electric clocks. The one's with the electronic balance have this size. I don't know the actual chemistry as they don't say. I used also to get good results from Kodak cells. However they are now made in China ... so !

Availability and quantity dictate prices. The N/LR1 size needed by a minority of smaller quartz movements are disproportionately expensive by a margin and again the Duracell's don't last long. I recently came across some very old Tandy Store "N" size batteries in my stock. One of which under test is already doing better than the Duracell. They were made in Japan and were stored in an air-tight bag for many years! Who would have thought! Actually I thought they were those 12-15V camera batteries but no, these are 1.55V cells. Could they even be Lithium? Nothing on the label except "Made in Japan"

On another tack I already said in an earlier post that I cannot find any small suitable IC's to make/repair the electronics. The only ripple through counter I have found is the CD4060 - which is only 14 stages where 15 are needed and anyway its too big physically. I need SMT. The stepping motor needs a bi-polar type drive. This means more components than can possibly be made small enough. It's far easier to rob a new cheap Chinese unit purchased for £2. Nevertheless I would like to make up a test unit for the crystals. That doesn't have to be miniaturised. It would also serve to test suspect mechanics. I have had bad crystals and even o/c trimming ceramic capacitors causing a no-go. Its great when you can get a even a vintage quartz unit running again.
Some of the the older quartz units use a 4Mhz crystal. However 32Khz is much more common in quartz clocks and even watches.

Any comments or help on any of this would be gratefully received here. I have tried to research this but I haven't yet struck gold. Just dibs and drabs.
Best regards, BerryG

 

[roughbarked]

Yes the alkaline batteries should last the longest.

 

[kinsler33]

Here, the two styles of hands are 'I-hand' and 'push-on.' The I-hand is likely your "Chinese" type, but they're best identified by the brass nut that holds the oval-holed minute hand onto the threaded shaft.

As for batteries for quartz clocks, I strongly suspect that all of these movements were engineered around commonly-available AA alkaline cells used for countless other consumer applications. Other cells used for medical or military applications might well last longer, but their price and availability would be unacceptable.

About the weird "I-hand" conversion washers I recommended: they are quite thin, so you would just glue or perhaps solder them over the round holes of existing hands. There's no need to cut anything.

Mark Kinsler

 

[roughbarked]

Here, the two styles of hands are 'I-hand' and 'push-on.' The I-hand is likely your "Chinese" type, but they're best identified by the brass nut that holds the oval-holed minute hand onto the threaded shaft.

As for batteries for quartz clocks, I strongly suspect that all of these movements were engineered around commonly-available AA alkaline cells used for countless other consumer applications. Other cells used for medical or military applications might well last longer, but their price and availability would be unacceptable.

About the weird "I-hand" conversion washers I recommended: they are quite thin, so you would just glue or perhaps solder them over the round holes of existing hands. There's no need to cut anything.

Mark Kinsler

Yes. The alkaline AA drains slower and longer. The average torch battery is designed to supply fast and furiously for a short time. Price is certainly a factor.

I've never used the I-hand conversion washers because I have heaps of hands suppplied with movements where I didn't need to or wasn't required to put new hands on. Many people prefer the old hands or ones that look the same.
I cut the I-hand washer off the hands supplied and glue or solder on to the old hands. In other instances I remake the hands bosses to fit. As an apprentice I filed lots of I-holes in hands.

 

[kinsler33]

I cut the I-hand washer off the hands supplied and glue or solder on to the old hands. In other instances I remake the hands bosses to fit. As an apprentice I filed lots of I-holes in hands.

Oh. I never thought of that.

I've always had a difficult time filing out those I-holes. That's why I welcomed the El Cheato washers.

We don't have real apprenticeships in the US for the most part, and they always struck me as being a good idea. I heard that some of the labor laws here might change to encourage them.

Mark Kinsler

 

[Simon Holt]

Here, the two styles of hands are 'I-hand' and 'push-on.

Thanks for the clarification, Mark. I've done some more research and the 'I shaft' is more commonly known in the UK as 'Euro shaft'. Chinese fitting seems to be the push-fit. But (whisper it) my little dab of superglue has solved the problem for the time being...

Simon

 

[roughbarked]

Thanks for the clarification, Mark. I've done some more research and the 'I shaft' is more commonly known in the UK as 'Euro shaft'. Chinese fitting seems to be the push-fit. But (whisper it) my little dab of superglue has solved the problem for the time being...

Simon

Best of luck with the glue job. It may have also been achievable by slipping a thin tight sleeve over the lot.

 

[Brad Maisto]

Help identifying what size battery I need for this German made quartz clock movement. I think the battery needs to be about 30 mm (9/8 inch) in length? Not sure what voltage?


Thanks, Brad Maisto

 

[Slimjim56]

I have acquired an kleninger and obergfell clock but it appears to be missing its battery holder .where could i find a replacement

 

[kinsler33]

I have acquired an kleninger and obergfell clock but it appears to be missing its battery holder .where could i find a replacement View attachment 575996 View attachment 575997 View attachment 575996 View attachment 575996 View attachment 575997

The Horolovar company, horolovar.com -&nbspThis website is for sale! -&nbsphorolovar Resources and Information., I think, makes battery holders for these. Check their website, and if that's not clear, give them a call at the phone number listed therein. Timesavers.com may also sell them. There seem to be two sizes: one for size D batteries and others for a pair of AA's. I think the original battery was some weird German creation, but there's no need to duplicate that.

Mark Kinsler

 

[Slimjim56]

thank you that's very helpful

 

[lmester]

On another tack I already said in an earlier post that I cannot find any small suitable IC's to make/repair the electronics. The only ripple through counter I have found is the CD4060 - which is only 14 stages where 15 are needed and anyway its too big physically. I need SMT. The stepping motor needs a bi-polar type drive. This means more components than can possibly be made small enough. It's far easier to rob a new cheap Chinese unit purchased for £2. Nevertheless I would like to make up a test unit for the crystals. That doesn't have to be miniaturised. It would also serve to test suspect mechanics. I have had bad crystals and even o/c trimming ceramic capacitors causing a no-go. Its great when you can get a even a vintage quartz unit running again.
Some of the the older quartz units use a 4Mhz crystal. However 32Khz is much more common in quartz clocks and even watches.

Any comments or help on any of this would be gratefully received here. I have tried to research this but I haven't yet struck gold. Just dibs and drabs.
Best regards, BerryG

Berry,

Because of the nasty virus that's now circulating, I'm now working from home using a VPN connection. This gives me a lot more time to catch up on my hobby projects.

I've also been looking for replacement IC's for quartz clocks. All of the current clock IC's are now COB's (Chip On Board: chips mounted directly onto the circuit board, those little black blobs of epoxy on the circuit board). Not usable for field replacement.

What we need is a microcontroller that can run down to about 1V (A nearly dead 1.5V battery).

I've been working with Microchip PIC microcontroller's for a long time. Using the internal oscillators, some of these chips support a minimum operating voltage of 2V. I've found that these parts can actually function at much lower voltages when an external clock signal is used.

We can't use an external clock signal for this application. We need to directly connect a tiny 32.768KHz watch crystal to the chip.

I decided to find the lowest operating voltage that would work with a 32.768KHz crystal directly connected to the chip's oscillator terminals.

Unfortunately, The chip's built-in crystal drive circuit (Pierce oscillator) dropped out at about 1.8V. It looks like the Microchip data sheet info for this part is correct.

If we replace the 1.5V battery with a 3V lithium battery one of these PIC's would work fine. Are there any lithium 3V batteries that are the same size as a standard 1.5V AA? Still a problem. If some future user inserts a 1.5V battery, the clock won't run.

I should probably post this on the EEVBLOG electronics mesage board. Maybe someone there can suggest a microcontroller that can use a 32.768KHz crystal and also run on about 1V.

 

[Cheezhead]

If we replace the 1.5V battery with a 3V lithium battery one of these PIC's would work fine. Are there any lithium 3V batteries that are the same size as a standard 1.5V AA?

Is 3.6 volts ok? Tadiran TL-4903. Ebay has a few but Battery Guy has a better price. These were used in a PLC that I used for a while.

 

[lmester]

Is 3.6 volts ok? Tadiran TL-4903. Ebay has a few but Battery Guy has a better price. These were used in a PLC that I used for a while.

That would work fine. This might be worth some more testing. I need to write a program to emulate a quartz clock. I can then measure how much current the PIC will use. The data sheet shows 11uA while runnung @ 32 KHz and 2V. I'll ned to measure the current with 3.6V applied. I may be able to decrease this by putting the chip to sleep while it's waiting for the next drive pulse.

This current won't include the pulses used to drive the clock motor. Unless a voltage dropping circuit is used, the pulse current will be higher than with the 1.5V battery.

Next will be to determine the possible battery life. I'd expect that a pic microcontroller won't be as efficient as the original clock chip. The lithium battery will have a greater capacity than the alkaline. This may be enough to give usable battery life.

It would be really nice to have a circuit that could be used to repair those odd sized quartz movements that don't have a generic replacement.

 

[MartinM]

The generic sizing codification for a lithium "AA" is 14500. Make sure not to get the one with an internal buck converter that limits the output to 1.5 volts.
Speaking of buck converters... Would one designed to power an LED from a single 1.5v cell (As in many cheap flashlights) be of any use?

 

[lmester]

The generic sizing codification for a lithium "AA" is 14500. Make sure not to get the one with an internal buck converter that limits the output to 1.5 volts.
Speaking of buck converters... Would one designed to power an LED from a single 1.5v cell (As in many cheap flashlights) be of any use?

I'd expect that a boost converter. Boosting 1.5V up to the voltage needed to drive an LED flashlight won't be efficient enough to run a clock for at least a year. I'd need to test some of these 1.5V boosters...

Also, I have the PIC code running. Current draw excluding the Lavet clock motor is about 8 Microamps. That looks good. I'm still looking for a chip that can run from a 1.5V battery.

Also Timing accuracy is good.

Here is a picture of my HP5335A counter measuring the rate. The software divides this by two to get a one second rate.

 

[lmester]

Quartz movement pivot repair:

I'm using this movement to test my quartz clock replacement electronics. I knocked it off of my workbench and then had to deal with the other quartz movement problem. The step motor rotor is a fairly heavy part. It's supported by small plastic pivots/pins. The drop broke the pivot off of the plastic plate. I decided to repair it. I drilled a hole to insert some pivot wire. I then decided that steel pivot wire isn't needed. There's normally very little force on the step motor pivots. I used some easy to work with copper wire instead. After it was in place, I could easily bend it to get the rotor properly centered. I drilled a hole through the plastic clock plate, Inserted the wire and then used a drop of hot glue to make sure it stayed in place. With any other clock, hot glue would probably get me into the "Clockmakers hall of shame". In this case, hot glue is just another little bit of plastic that's added to the plastic movement

 

[roughbarked]

I cut the I-hand washer off the hands supplied and glue or solder on to the old hands. In other instances I remake the hands bosses to fit. As an apprentice I filed lots of I-holes in hands.

Oh. I never thought of that.

I've always had a difficult time filing out those I-holes. That's why I welcomed the El Cheato washers.

We don't have real apprenticeships in the US for the most part, and they always struck me as being a good idea. I heard that some of the labor laws here might change to encourage them.

Mark Kinsler

Reminded me of this thread when I did this again today. The shop clock that my brother painted on. Shop owner's son wanted the clock fixed and the old Smiths electric motor was had it. He asked can't you fit a quartz movement? I said, "never tell me I can't do something". Of course the original hands weren't ever going to fit so I pulled the boss' out of them and glued partial hands on.

 

[roughbarked]

The shop was in the family from 1955 to 2020.

 

[Benjy]

Hi,

This is my latest project I am having fun with.

It is an onyx or marble round quartz clock. The face is marked "Envoy" Made in Germany.

From the backplate, I Can see the name ucar.

On strip down, I can see that there are two wires that are disconnected from a small circuit board to the wheels and cogs of the movement.

Here are some pictures. I would like to see if I can get this old quartz movement going again. Any help appreciated.

 

[kinsler33]

Two suggestions: (1) replace the whole movement with a new one. Yours look like "push-on" hands, so find a quartz movement that's meant for those. Timesavers or Ronnell seem to be the best sources. Use a continuous-sweep movement if they have one with push-on hands.

(2) Find a disabled quartz movement (not a continuous sweep type) with gears that are shot but electronics which work. Disconnect the electronics from the old shot movement and, after disconnecting that separate circuit board on your antique, connect the electronics from the salvaged movement to the terminals of your antique's electromagnet.

There's some electrical stuff among the gears of the mechanical portion of the antique movement, but I don't know what they're for--perhaps an alarm.

To check the viability of the antique's electromagnet, briefly connect a 1.5 volt AA battery across its terminals. It should click the gears forward.

Nice clock.

Mark Kinsler

 

[Berry Greene]

Nice clock; Nice project. Martin has covered the ground. If you can make sure the mechanics will work and you have an electronic fault, it might help a little to identify the crystal frequency. I'm betting 4Mhz (by looking at your pictures), in which case you can probably source a replacement and an IC for it. ** Be aware that static electricity is your big enemy and work somewhere where you can ground yourself. Don't pick cold dry days when static generation is worse. I use the s/steel sink, the cooker, a radiator. Keep touching the metal to discharge yourself. No nylon carpets, or man made clothes fibres etc..
There's a lot to be said for fitting a replacement modern quartz unit but I'll understand completely if you choose not to. Good luck! BerryG
** {BTW - strictly speaking you should wear a conductive wrist band that is connected to ground via a high resistance. Lets say 2Megohms. This way the Hi-V charges are leaked away without any arcs}.

 

[Benjy]

Nice clock; Nice project. Martin has covered the ground. If you can make sure the mechanics will work and you have an electronic fault, it might help a little to identify the crystal frequency. I'm betting 4Mhz (by looking at your pictures), in which case you can probably source a replacement and an IC for it. ** Be aware that static electricity is your big enemy and work somewhere where you can ground yourself. Don't pick cold dry days when static generation is worse. I use the s/steel sink, the cooker, a radiator. Keep touching the metal to discharge yourself. No nylon carpets, or man made clothes fibres etc..
There's a lot to be said for fitting a replacement modern quartz unit but I'll understand completely if you choose not to. Good luck! BerryG
** {BTW - strictly speaking you should wear a conductive wrist band that is connected to ground via a high resistance. Lets say 2Megohms. This way the Hi-V charges are leaked away without any arcs}.

Thanks for the two previous commenters.

I have decided to go for replacing the quartz unit with a modern-day equivalent. The electronics involved are just beyond my capabilities.

It's a shame but it will look a nice piece when finished.

Thanks again folks.