Post your quartz clock matters here

Discussion in 'Electric Horology' started by lmester, Oct 14, 2012.

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  1. Cheezhead

    Cheezhead Registered User

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    Re: Looking for Someone to repair my Patek Philippe Naviquartz

    A German web site, worldoftime.de has an identical clock for sale and describes it in part as PP Quartz, accuracy +- 0.2 sec/day...

    I checked our two quartz clocks with sweep second hands, one being a Seiko World Clock and the other being an inexpensive Chinese kitchen clock. The sound from the Seiko could be loosely described as a very low pitched hum. It could also be described as having a rushing or rustling sound. The Chinese clock has that too mixed with clicking and gear noise.

    Reading a little history of Patek Philippe revealed that they were early adoptors of new technology and the name "Naviquartz" and the timing accuracy specification are indicators that this may indeed be a quartz clock.
     
  2. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
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    Re: Looking for Someone to repair my Patek Philippe Naviquartz

    I am aware that Imhof made the movement in my Marathon quartz chronometer. Imhof is/was more commonly known as a maker of higher priced small Swiss clocks and alarms. That Imhof made the movement used in the Marathon, it was likely after Imhof merged with Jean Roulet in 1988 and likely launched into quartz controlled timepieces.
     
  3. Cheezhead

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    Nine Year Quartz Clock Battery?

    Nine Year Quartz Clock Battery?


    At first glance this is merely a simple, inexpensive, travel size quartz alarm clock about 2-1/4 inches square; a Kienzle Piccolo made in Germany. On an impulse my wife and I went inside a clock store while vacationing in Germany in 1985. I saw the clock and bought it in memory of a faithful and accurate electromechanical Kienzle car clock that ran for the 12 years that we owned the mid-1970s German car it was in. That was the first car clock that I had known to run for the lifespan of a car in our ownership. Before that, car clocks that I knew typically did not last for long.

    When buying this alarm clock I recall asking if a battery came with it. The clerk said no and I replied "If it is German, it will work" to hear assurance, even if from myself, that it would run as any warranty would not be useful after we left the store. Evidently I said a good thing as the clerk left for a moment to consult with another store person and it turned out that a battery would be supplied with the clock after all.

    To conserve battery power the step motor in this Kienzle clock advances eight times per minute instead of the usual once per second. The clock has no seconds hand. The clock is accurate to under a half minute when daylight savings time calls for a timing reset twice each year. An alkaline cell lasts in this clock for about three years. I installed a lithium cell battery of the Ultimate persuasion on 2-20-12.

    The energy capacity of a disposable lithium cell can range from three to eight times that of an alkaline cell depending on the discharge rate and what you happen to be reading about them so conservatively stated it's possible that this clock will run for nine years on a single disposable AA lithium cell or even 24 years if "Lasts Up to 8x" Longer in Digital Cameras" as stated on the packaging is valid at a very low current rate. It will be amusing if the lithium cell lasts 9 years. I intend to post the result at the 9 year mark or sooner if the battery expires before then.
     

    Attached Files:

  4. Steve Murphy

    Steve Murphy Registered User

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    Re: Looking for Someone to repair my Patek Philippe Naviquartz

    Sounds like this Chronometer is similar to the 1970's Accuquartz navigator. Bulova Accuquartz Navigator Mark III Boxed Ship Chronometer – 1973This is a relatively scarce chronometer made by Bulova in the 1970′s. It uses the caliber 224 movement which was a variant of the 218 dual tuning fork movement, however rather than use the tuning fork for timing, the Accuquartz movement had a quartz oscillator and chip generating a frequency of 32.768Hz and it used the tuning fork, pawl, and index wheel just as an engine to run the train.
     
  5. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
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    Re: Looking for Someone to repair my Patek Philippe Naviquartz

    Good explanation and reason for this thread starter jaunplopes' comment: "I put batteries, and heard the 'humming' of the movement, however, the sweep hand did not move."

    Likely and only a guess; that the tuning fork motor, a common Bulova 218 watch motor is creating the humming sound but the motion works is binding and failing to move the hands. A rather common fail mode of the Bulove Accutron wristwatch.
     
  6. millertimebaby2013

    millertimebaby2013 New Member

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    help identifying and finding the value

    I have a clock that looks like a set of4 books attatched and on the binds of the first book it says "steps of success" and the last one says "masters of time". In the middle of the binds there is a clock face thatsays seth thomas in cursive. It says quartz and japan-movt. The books on the bottom say made in china. Ive looked everywhere and cant seem to find it anywhere. Can someone please help me find the value and information on it?
     
  7. Kevin W.

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    Re: help identifying and finding the value

    First off its against rules in this forum to discuss values of clocks. There is a forum for that, which you pay a small fee.
    I dont feel your quartz clock is likely too valuable, unless it was a family heirloom.
     
  8. shutterbug

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    Re: help identifying and finding the value

    Yeah, Seth Thomas and Japan don't go together :)
     
  9. soaringjoy

    soaringjoy Registered User

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    Re: help identifying and finding the value

    Welcome to the Message Board, MTB2013. Well, yes, as already said, we do not discuss values in these forums.
    There is a standing thread on quartz clock matters in the Electric Horology forum, which is where I'm moving this to.
    Afaik, the name Seth Thomas was licensed to some makers, but I'm not 100% sure. You might want to post some
    pictures.
     
  10. millertimebaby2013

    millertimebaby2013 New Member

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    Re: help identifying and finding the value

    I just created an acct so i could get someone to send me a link or something showing me a bunch of info on it..but i find this siteto not be of any help but ty anyways
     
  11. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User
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    Re: help identifying and finding the value

    Most people on this web site dont collect Quartz clocks, me for one. They are a throw away clock, not fixed easily or made to last. maybe just Google some more to see what you can find.
     
  12. soaringjoy

    soaringjoy Registered User

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    Re: help identifying and finding the value

    I'm sorry you see it that way. But, truth is, your clock is a so called novelty clock in the best case,
    perhaps 1980s or later. Almost all cheaper modern quartz movements are Made in Japan, Taiwan, or
    China. I'm afraid the clock has nothing in common with the Seth Thomas brand except for the name.
     
  13. Tom F

    Tom F New Member

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    Seth Thomas Biscayne battery help!

    Does anyone know what type of battery is used in the Seth Thomas Biscayne model quartz movement?
     
  14. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
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    Re: Seth Thomas Biscayne battery help!

    Welcome to the NAWCC Message Board Tom F. As far as I can tell from the description of the Biscayne model, it could require either an alkaline AA size dry cell or possibly the smaller AAA size cell.

    Although it is possible that the quartz movement may use a yet smaller dry cell.

    I suggest that your remove the dead dry cell from the clock and reply to this message board thread and attach a snapshot of the old dry cell with a large coin in the picture for comparison.
     
  15. Scottie-TX

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    Re: Seth Thomas Biscayne battery help!

    If indeed there is a battery in it the battery will have the size stamped on it. AA batteries are about 2" long while AAA is 2 and 3/4". AA is about a 1/2" dia while AAA, about 3/8" . . . . . or does it require a button type battery?
     
  16. soaringjoy

    soaringjoy Registered User

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    Re: Seth Thomas Biscayne battery help!

    Welcome Tom. We've got a separate thread on quartz clocks, so I'm moving this to it.
     
  17. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
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    Re: help identifying and finding the value

    I think we (spokes-people for NAWCC) have to be very careful to not demeanor a query by implying that a species of clock or watch is not worth repair or has no value.

    Consider the fact that some of the earliest quartz clocks were very costly to manufacture and expensive to purchase. Some have their movements contained in a moulded plastic housing and have the appearance of a cheap quartz fit-up movement. These are collectible even not working and only of historic value.

    The Patek Philippe Naviquartz Marine chronometer is an extreme example and at the low end is the Marathon quartz chronometer, a replacement for the Hamilton model 21 ship's chronometer. The Marathon fits exactly in the same box as the Hamilton 21 yet it is moulded plastic and has a plastic movement.

    I think TomF was frustrated by MB procedure and really wanted to know the type of battery used in his chronometer clock.


     
  18. Tom F

    Tom F New Member

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    Re: Seth Thomas Biscayne battery help!


    Thanks for the suggestions, but there was no battery in the clock I purchased it. The battery space is too short for either a "AA" or "AAA" but the width is about right for the "AA."

    Tom F
     
  19. harold bain

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    Re: Seth Thomas Biscayne battery help!

    It looks like you may need an "N" size battery. Timesavers carries them, part # 11663.
    www.timesavers.com
     
  20. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
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    Re: Seth Thomas Biscayne battery help!

    Tom. Look at the N size 1-1/2 volt dry cell. It is about the same diameter as the AA cell yet just 1.1 inches tall...about 3/4 inch shorter than the AA cell.

    Amazon has a multitude of various brands of N size cells. Google Amazon or other seller or go to any drug store and ask for a N size battery. The N size dry cell has almost the same electrical capacity as the longer and skinnier AAA cell. It is just not very popular and used mainly for medical equipment and in more compact clocks.

    Hope this helps.
     
  21. Cheezhead

    Cheezhead Registered User

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    #71 Cheezhead, Jul 29, 2013
    Last edited: Jul 29, 2013
    Remington Multi-Quartz Clock Question

    This is a carriage style quartz clock branded Remington Multi-Quartz that I found at a charitable resale store. Can someone please tell me of the significance of Multi-Quartz? I could not find anything on the web to answer my question. The very accurate movement is from U.T.S in W-Germany. The clock's case was nicely made and labeled West Germany at the bottom of the dial panel as well as W-Germany at the bottom of the hinged cover on the back.

    TIA

    Rem2.JPG
     
  22. Wynen

    Wynen Registered User

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    Re: Remington Multi-Quartz Clock Question

    At first sight, it looks like a Junghans Clock and I'm quite sure that the clock was manufactured by Junghans.

    Since 1996 U.T.S. was the manufacture for Junghans Quartz movements (up to about 2000 or 2002, after that it was Eurochron). A MBO of this company is still manufacturing quartz movements (http://www.uhrentechnik-schwarzwald.de)

    Hartmut
     
  23. Cheezhead

    Cheezhead Registered User

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    #73 Cheezhead, Jan 1, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 1, 2014
    Re: My Newest Quartz Clock Acquisition from Post # 46 dated 2-27-2013


    Some time back I posted a question on the forum about adjustability of timing accuracy with a modern quartz clock. Conventional wisdom says that there is no adjustment but there may be a way to speed one up just a little.

    The Swiza clock as pictured on my post # 46 dated 02-27-2013 ran 0.29 seconds per day slow with a reasonably fresh AA alkaline cell. Since 9/29/13 it has been powered with an Ultimate lithium AA cell and at the 90 day mark it has lost 9 seconds or 0.1 second per day. This is equal to Best Reasonable Accuracy Expectation for a Modern quartz watch non-certified (normal) as specified on www.chronocentric.com. A new alkaline cell from my supply according to my voltmeter measures around 1.65 volts. The lithium cell started out at 1.779 volts and presently measures 1.748 volts.

    I have another less intently monitored lithium cell powered quartz clock pictured and described on post # 53 dated 03-17-2013 that is running fast now but was recalled to run pretty much on time with an alkaline cell. Powered with a lithium cell that clock gained about a minute from the 2013 Spring daylight time change to December 29, 2013.

    Conclusion: It appears that battery voltage has an effect on a quartz clock's accuracy. Higher voltage = faster clock.
     
  24. lmester

    lmester Registered User
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    Re: help identifying and finding the value

    Re: How to adjust the rate of a quartz clock.


    Adjusting the rate of quartz clocks is a topic that's come up several times in the past. My training is in electronics. I decided to make a guide on how to regulate a quartz clock. I've learned a great amount about mechanical clocks from this MB. Now it's time to give something back.



    Why is my quartz clock running fast or slow?

    If you don't want to read electronics 101 skip down to "Adjusting the rate of a quartz clock:"




    There are primarily four things that affect the frequency of a quartz crystal oscillator:

    1: The physical size and shape of the crystal:



    A thinner crystal will have a higher frequency Thicker will be lower. A crystal made in a tuning fork shape will oscillate at the tuning fork's resonant frequency. The low frequency crystals used in quartz clocks are tuning fork crystals.

    Basically, A crystal is a mechanical resonator that is powered by electricity.
    When a change in voltage is applied, the crystal will change it's dimensions. When mechanical force is applied a voltage will be produced. Search the internet for "piezoelectric" if you want more info.



    2: Temperature:

    Like all materials, quartz expands and contracts with temperature changes. This effects the size and shape of the crystal. Crystals are designed to minimize temperature effects. Search for "quartz crystal cuts" for more info.



    3: Power supply (battery) voltage:

    Power supply voltage has an indirect effect on the crystal frequency. The voltage applied to a semiconductor device changes the capacitance of the semiconductor junction. Semiconductor junctions have higher capacitance when a lower voltage is applied. Because of this, the electronics used to drive the crystal will change the capacitive loading on the crystal with changes in power supply voltage. As the battery voltage goes down the capacitance will increase and the clock will slow down. Search for "Varactor diode" or "Varicap" for more info.



    4: The components used in the electronic circuit used to drive the crystal oscillator:

    This is where we can make adjustments.






    Adjusting the rate of a quartz clock:

    You can't change the physical properties of the crystal other than to swap in another crystal. It's the same with temperature. You would need to replace the crystal with one that has better temperature stability.

    One parameter that we can change is the capacitive load on the crystal. There will be a capacitor connected to each terminal of the crystal. Decreasing the value of these capacitors will speed up the oscillator. Increasing it will slow it down.

    Quartz clock circuits may have no external capacitor, one capacitor or two capacitors. Adjusting the value of these capacitors will change the oscillator frequency.

    No external capacitor:

    Modern quartz clock circuits may have no external load capacitors. They are built into the clock chip. In this case you can only lower the oscillator frequency by adding a capacitor. If the clock is running slow you can't correct it. If it's fast you can add more capacitance to slow the rate.

    How do they adjust these clocks in the factory? The clock chips used have either a factory programmable load capacitance or a programmable divider that allows the chip to skip a certain amount of counts from the crystal oscillator. The crystals used have a slightly higher frequency. The chip is factory programmed to skip the proper amount of counts to give a correct rate.

    One or two capacitors:

    Some clock chips have two external capacitors or one internal capacitor on the chip and one that's external to allow adjustment of the oscillator frequency (clock rate). Most that I've seen have one external capacitor. Adjusting the value of one or both of these capacitors will change the rate of the clock.



    Do you really need to adjust your quartz clock?

    Quartz movements are cheap. Normally you'll just replace it. Sometimes you may need to try and regulate one. Modern movements won't fit in the clock case etc.

    You may have a favorite clock that's not keeping good time. That's why I'm adjusting this one. I have a digital quartz projection clock that has all of the features that I want. Unfortunately, It's running several minutes per month slow. This is an entirely digital clock with an LCD display.

    Attached are pictures of my modifications of this digital clock and some pics of typical quartz clock circuits with no or one external capacitor. The quartz crystal oscillator circuit is the same on all of these clocks. The regulating info applies to all of them. Whether they are entirely digital or electromechanical (analog) quartz clocks.

    The first two pics are of the digital clock that I modified. First is the back of the PC-board showing the crystal. Next is the front of the board showing the crystal to capacitor connections. I removed the upper capacitor and replaced it with a variable trimmer capacitor. Next is the removed cap connected to a cap meter. It's a very small surface mount capacitor. Next is it's value on the cap meter. Since I knew that I needed less capacitance I set the trim cap to 15 PF as a starting value. Next pic is the trim cap installed on the back of the board. Then the clock with the case installed. I drilled a hole to access the trim cap without taking the clock apart. The last three pics are of common quartz clock circuit boards without and with an external cap installed.

    Quarts_Trim 001.jpg Quarts_Trim 002.jpg Quarts_Trim 004.jpg Quarts_Trim 005.jpg Quarts_Trim 007.jpg Quarts_Trim 009.jpg Quarts_Trim 010.jpg Quarts_Trim 011.jpg Quarts_Trim 012.jpg
     
  25. rich84

    rich84 Registered User
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    I have a clock with the movement shown. It has "QUARTZ B5" on the cover. It stops after a short time - both time and motion. A battery replacement had no effect. Can a replacement movement be purchased for this clock?
     
  26. Cheezhead

    Cheezhead Registered User

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    If you feel so inclined and if your movement can be opened up without damage you could check for plastic wear debris at the step motor bearings. Clear the debris away to see if it helps. I lubed one with some silicone oil that I happened to have but regular oil might degrade the plastic. Check out this site: http://www.timetips.org/ for reclaimed movements. Otherwise you might want to check out charity resale stores in your area for inexpensive quartz clocks from which you might be able to salvage a suitable but not identical movement. Hobby type stores typically have new quartz movements with various shaft extension lengths, one of which might work for your clock. If you want to spend more, Merritts and Timesavers have quartz movements, again not likely identical but possibly usable.
     
  27. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

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    If you're searching for a replacement movement, make sure it's "B5" and not "85".
    I've never seen the former and have seen a ton of the latter.
     
  28. rich84

    rich84 Registered User
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    You are right, Martin. It is "85", the same one pictured at the start of this thread.
    I will look into opening and cleaning out the interior of the movement. Thanks for responding.
     
  29. Movementman

    Movementman Registered User

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    I have a Seth Thomas Quartzmatic clock from 1974. It has a high quality 3 volt movement that has 2 C batteries to run it. The motor needs to be manually started by pressing in the time set knob. It has a very smooth second hand and is very accurate. The crystal oscillator in it is huge and the motor is nearly half the size of a telechron S motor. It does sound like an ac clock motor when it runs. The case is Swiss, but it has an American movement in it.
     
  30. lmester

    lmester Registered User
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    If it's not too much trouble I'd like to see some pictures of the movement. With two C cells for power this must be fairly early. Before low power, low voltage electronics were available.
     
  31. Movementman

    Movementman Registered User

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    st clock (1).jpg st clock (2).jpg
    Here is the picture of the front of the clock and the movement. The picture I took with the grey plastic cover removed from the movement came out bad but you can see the movement pretty well through it. If you want more pictures or info on it just let me know.
     
  32. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    I'd be curious as to the label on the crystal can.
    It is the metal can in the upper left for the picture.
    It might be difficult to see without removing the gray
    plastic cover.
    It is not that unusual to have to kick start it. Most
    normal AC clocks use what is called shade pole motors.
    These will self start but waste power. A few of the older
    self starting clocks use a ratchet like piece. These
    also caused drag the consumed power.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  33. Movementman

    Movementman Registered User

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    Most of my AC clocks are self starting, being from the 60's and 70's, but I do have a few spin start ones and a couple that have a lever that you need to push and release to start them. I pulled the plastic cover off and I it is hard to see, but the crystal seems to say 262-144 CTS 7404. Directly underneath the motor coil there is a large IC, but I cannot see it clearly enough to read what it says although I do see something on it. The cover is very easy to remove, it just slides off.
     
  34. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    Thanks for looking at the crystal. I still don't know the frequency.
    It looks like a house part number and then a date code.
    I'm guessing it is 4MHz+ someplace.
    The higher frequencies mean it can have a useful frequency adjust
    with a smaller trim capacitor.
    The regular quartz clocks don't use an induction motor like this,
    they us a small stepper. That is why they do 1 second steps instead
    of smooth action like this clock.
    For the reasons I stated, it would not be as good a clock if it self started.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  35. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    Of course, 262144 is a power of 2. Maybe that is the
    frequency.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  36. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
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    Movementman's Seth Thomas Quartzmatic clock is an interesting discussion on early quartz movement development.

    I suspect but have no good reason to believe the oscillator is a 32,768 kHz. The can label, 262-144 CTS 7404 I think is one made by CTS with the date code 7404. Here's my reason: CTS, a major maker of XY crystals for eons, was, in 1975 studying the market of the then revolutionary tiny tuning fork shaped XY oscillator crystal and making samples and small batches. Thus I think the crystal is of the older XY plated type in the old style can. The large IC is likely a divider IC that produces a useful low frequency AC for the motor.

    The smooth operation of the motor can be attributed to inertia of the rotor which, according to Movementman has a noisy gear train. The starter button may be a LC or RC that briefly shifts the phase of the oscillator enough to cause the rotor to sync with the produced AC. This kind of starter can be uncertain and may cause the motor to start in reverse.

    What do you think?
    ..
     
  37. Movementman

    Movementman Registered User

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    The starter in this clock is completely mechanical. It just briefly spins the rotor similar to the ac clocks with a manual starter, and sometimes it takes a couple of tries to get it running. Also, Tinker Dwight mentioned it having an adjustment. It does have a speed adjustment and I found that very interesting on a quartz clock. When the rotor is stalled, you can here a slight buzz which sounds very similar to a 60hz ac clock so I guess it could run the motor on 60hz or there about.
     
  38. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    The crystal would be a higher frequency ( above audible range )
    As Les says, the IC chip would the divider and possibly the driver
    but there may be external transistors used for stronger drive.
    I still suspect the higher frequency crystal than the 32K. Most
    of the early quartz clock didn't use the 32K.
    It would be fun to put a 'scope or counter on it to see what it ran
    at.
    For either frequency, the motor most likely runs at 64Hz. It is power
    of 2 and close to the frequencies that most motors were made at
    the time.
    I'm not surprised that it is a mechanical start.
    I have several early computers with CTS crystals. Most to have
    the frequency written on them. All except the few cases where
    they used color burst crystals, such as used in TVs. These
    were at 3.xxMHz someplace and not good clock sources, not
    being exact powers of 2.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  39. Movementman

    Movementman Registered User

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    The crystal may have some more written on it , but if it does it is not visible from the outside of the movement. If I ever need to take the movement apart to fix it I will be sure to look at what the writing on the IC says. I was thinking that the motor ran at 64hz because I did find a website a couple years ago that did mention it. I do see a couple ceramic capacitors, a diode, and at least 1 resistor on the PCB. I do not see any transistors though, but I can't see the entire PCB right now. I have also had a few early computers and other electronics with CTS crystals in them, so it did seem familiar but I could not remember where I had seen it before. I still find it very interesting that it has a speed adjustment on it, although I have never needed to use it.
     
  40. lmester

    lmester Registered User
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    Thanks!

    That crystal looks like the large HC/6 type. It may be a 32KHz crystal. It also possible that it has a higher frequency. Some of the early quartz drive circuits used a 4.194304 MHz crystal to drive a 64Hz or 16Hz synchronous motor.

    Quartz clock designs moved to lower frequency crystals primarily because lower oscillator frequencies use less power. You also need fewer dividers to get the frequency down to a usable value.

    My oldest quartz clock has a date code of 7803 (1978) on the drive IC. Four years newer than yours. It has the trim capacitor for rate adjustment and a smaller HC/49 crystal. Mine is more like the modern movements. It has a self starting 1 second step motor. It also uses a single cell for power.


    I have several analog quartz driver IC datasheets. I have them for the EM Microelectronic H1344, Intersil ICM7245 and Panasonic MN6xxx drive IC's. If anyone is interested I can put up a copy.

    Unfortunately, I've been unable to find data on any of the IC's in my old clocks.


    Here is a picture of my clock.

    OldQuartz 001.jpg
     
  41. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

    Oct 11, 2010
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    Although, you didn't state it, I assume yours is the 4Mhz+ crystal?
    I do understand the move to the 32KHz but it didn't take off
    until they were making them by the gazillions for watches.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  42. Movementman

    Movementman Registered User

    Oct 30, 2012
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    Your movement looks more like a modern quartz movement than mine. The electronics do look similar to another old quartz movement that I had that was just worn out. The Seth Thomas movement is a unique design altogether. I must say, my ST is pretty good on batteries being that the batteries in it are the same batteries that were in it when I bought it. I am 99% sure that my ST motor runs at 64Hz. You movement looks similar to modern ones, but much better quality.
     
  43. lmester

    lmester Registered User
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    Dec 30, 2009
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    Yes, it has the 4MHz crystal.

    I'm sure you're correct about the 32KHz crystals. Making a tuning fork crystal would probably be much more expensive. A standard crystal is just a disc of quartz ground down to the proper thickness for the desired frequency. Although the power consumption is much smaller for a lower frequency crystal it's not a big problem when you can use an AA or C cell for power. Also, tuning fork crystals are really small. With a watch you don't have much room for the battery or the crystal.

    I looked at the datasheets that I have for clock IC's. the ones with a 32Khz oscillator use about 2uA. The 4MHz ones use 35uA. Probably much more significant is the frequency used to drive the motor. The clock motor takes several mA of current.

    I noticed this when changing the battery in one of my wife's tiny wristwatches. After putting in a new battery I put it up to my ear & heard no ticking. I thought it was not running. Some time later I noticed that the hands had moved. I listened for a longer time and found it was only ticking about once every 10 seconds. To save power it's driving the motor at low speed. That wouldn't work very good if it had a second hand! I guess it'd be a ten second hand:)

    one thing that I'm curious about with movementman's clock is that it uses a synchronous motor. If they had used a Lavet type stepping motor it would have been self starting like more modern clocks.

    That also gave me a surprise. I'd thought that possibly the Lavet motor had not yet been invented. After a little research I found that it was patented in 1936!
     
  44. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    Generally, steppers are less efficient than a continuous
    motor.
    There are a number of equalizing factors. Driving with short
    DC pulses can reduce the amount of power. A continuously
    running motor will create a back emf that makes them more
    efficient.
    Steppers waste all that by dumping the inductive energy.
    Making it practical for clocks and watches required making
    it small and minimizing the excess energy to reliably step.
    Only stepping once a second is in the steppers favor.
    Almost all the stepper types use a ratchet of some type
    to keep them form back spinning rather than depending
    on the Lavet design to keep them from back stepping.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  45. rich84

    rich84 Registered User
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    To close the loop on the model 85 mechanism - I found the arbor of the first gear (by the stepper motor) to be gummed up. By cleaning the arbor and the bearing surface of the gear, the pendulum once again works (and the clock keeps time). It resulted in one happy customer. Thanks for all the help.
     
  46. Movementman

    Movementman Registered User

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    It is always really nice to fix something like that, especially for someone else.
     
  47. lmester

    lmester Registered User
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    I've looked at quite a lot of quartz movements. This one from movementman is the first that I've seen that uses a synchronous motor instead of a Lavet motor. I've never seen any modern movements that need a reversing mechanism to get them running in the proper direction. I've only seen this used on AC powered synchronous clocks. It was common in the cheap AC powered alarm clocks made in the 60's. I have one of these clocks around somewhere. I'll look for it and post some pics on a new thread.

    Also, I'm currently testing a no tick silent quartz movement. It also uses a Lavet stepping motor. It just steps the motor at a much faster rate. I'll post info on my tests of this movement in another message.
     
  48. lmester

    lmester Registered User
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    I'm now testing a silent no tick continuous motion quartz clock movement.

    Some people just don't like the ticking sound of a quartz clock. I have a friend that had to remove one from his bedroom because it was keeping him awake. This isn't a problem for me. I have a house full of mechanical clocks. With all of the ticking, striking and chiming, I don't even notice the sounds of my quartz clocks!

    We remodeled the kitchen about ten years ago. During the remodeling my wife bought a quartz clock from Walmart. She liked it because the clock matched the kitchen cabinets.

    The movement in this clock is now wearing out. It's running slow and getting noisy enough that even I was noticing it. I was going to replace the movement with a much better quality Takane brand movement. The Takane movement that I had wouldn't fit without modifying the case. I decided to try one of the newer silent movements instead.

    I've seen these movements for sale for quite some time. I bought two of them online. I went for the bottom on the price. $1.50 each including shipping. They even came with a brass mounting nut, brass and rubber washer, and a set of hands.

    They have some advantages over the normal quartz movement. First, they're silent. Second, they have that nice smooth second hand motion like the AC powered synchronous motor clocks that were common when I was young.



    I expected that there would also be some problems with the silent movements. The two things that came to my mind first were less battery life and more movement wear.


    I've measured the power use of the silent movement and compared it with a one impulse per second quartz movement. The silent movement has an average current draw of 300uA. The one second impulse movement uses 127uA.

    Power use is nearly twice as much for the silent movement.

    A standard quartz movement moves the stepping motor 180 degrees with each rotor drive impulse. Two seconds for each full rotation of the rotor. Each half turn of the rotor advances the second hand by one second. The motor is rotating at 30 RPM.

    The silent movement drives the stepping motor with eight drive impulses per second. Two impulses per rotation. The motor rotates at 240 RM. With the faster rotation of the rotor I'd expect that the plastic pivots and bushings will wear out quicker.

    I'll have to wait a few years and see how long this movement lasts.

    Here are some pictures of the silent movement. It uses a Lavet type stepping motor just like the one second movement. I was surprised that it has a Lavet type motor. Lavet motors require a dead time with no power applied so that the rotor can come to rest. This at rest position that's not aligned with the electromagnet coil is what gives the Lavet stepping motor a preferred rotation direction.


    Silent Quartz 004.jpg Silent Quartz 008.jpg Silent Quartz 009.jpg
     
  49. Movementman

    Movementman Registered User

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    I have a couple of the silent movements and I did take one apart a couple years back. The gear on the rotor should have 2 teeth that are slightly bent. The second gear that the motor turns (the clear one) has its teeth at a slight angle. This is similar to a ratchet mechanism so If the motor does somehow start in the wrong direction it will reverse. Also, this motor does have a form of a shaded pole design. This movement you have is the same one that I took apart.
     
  50. lmester

    lmester Registered User
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    I did some tests tonight. I powered up the motor several times with only the rotor installed. It was starting randomly in either direction. I used my magnivisor and looked closely at the rotor pinion. I see the bent teeth that you mentioned. I believe that I'd mentioned before that a Lavet motor needs some dead time for the rotor to come to rest. I didn't see how it could work when the rotor was constantly turning. This now makes more sense.

    Tinker had mentioned that most of the stepping motors used are not Lavet and used some type of ratchet mechanism. Maybe I was wrong about them being Lavet motors. I took apart several standard quartz movements and ran them with just the rotor installed. They all rotated in one direction. This must mean that there is no ratchet type mechanism to give it a preferred direction.

    I also have several quartz movements That I've removed the electronics from. I drive them with pulses from a microcontroller chip. I slowed down the drive pulses so you can see the operation of the motor. The second hand goes to one position when power is applied and a different position with no power. This is definitely a Lavet motor.

    Here is a short video. When the red or yellow LED is lit power is applied to the coil. Both off for no power.

    [video=youtube_share;WGwEL-rr4PA]http://youtu.be/WGwEL-rr4PA[/video]



    It looks like the low speed rotors are Lavet and the faster rotating ones are not.




    Also, You said that you've been running these for several years. How are they holding up? With plastic bushings and pivots I'm wondering how long they'll last. There is much more motion than in a standard quartz movement.
     

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