Post your Lenzkirch clocks here.

Discussion in 'General Clock Discussions' started by Mike306p/Ansoniaman, Jul 6, 2006.

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  1. maxperondi

    maxperondi Registered User

    Apr 25, 2009
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    Dear All,

    I have just bought on ebay a bracket clock with number Lenzkirch 1 Million." and the numbers "52 and 599364"on it. Does anyone know what Year this numbers means it was build ?

    Someone told me that this means on a different tread that it was build in 1910 but I m not 100 % sure.

    Your help is appreciated.

    Regards

    Max
     
  2. maxperondi

    maxperondi Registered User

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    Dear All,
    Sorry,

    These are the pictures of my clock.

    Regards
     

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  3. Oled

    Oled Registered User

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    #153 Oled, Feb 14, 2010
    Last edited: Feb 14, 2010
    2 LenzkirchFan:

    I've posted one backplate photo with No 183370 here:

    https://mb.nawcc.org/showpost.php?p=442048&postcount=139

    Interesting fact that it already has a Lenz logo. So even the most correct serial numbers table has to be updated =)))

    I've also attached here photos of similar cased Lenz, but have a look at it's escapment fork, it is of absolutelly different shape.



    2 maxperondi:

    Hello Max, forza Italia! )
    I really love your table Lenzies!

    Your clock has a serial number of 1,599,364. According to this chart they were made in 1908-1909. And they looks 100% original.

    Best regards,
    Oleg
     

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  4. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User
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    Apr 11, 2002
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    Max very nice clock, looks great, enjoy it.:)
     
  5. maxperondi

    maxperondi Registered User

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    Thank you.

    So as far as I can see mine was build around 1908-1909 or 1910 circa if I m not wrong but not later then that.

    Regards

    Max
    -> posts merged by system <-
    Thank you to everyone that replay to my messages. I like my clock very much and this one was service. The only thing I have spotted is that the opening of the bezel has been modified at some point and the hammer has been soft soldier but apart from that and a replacement key it looks all original.

    One more thing I would like to know about these clocks is what made Leinzkirch better then any other clock manifacturer of the same period?

    Regards

    Max
     
  6. Oled

    Oled Registered User

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    Quality and design ) As usiall )
     
  7. zepernick

    zepernick Deceased

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    Greetings Max --

    Unfortunately, there are at present no reliable dating tables for Lenzkirch that would allow you to conclude that. And if you scroll back on this thread a bit you'll see a reference to someone's :)irritation that so-called dating tables which are known to be poor are continually referred to, here as elsewhere.

    Briefly, the one that someone first used to date your clock -- and then was referred to again on this message board -- has been kicking about for years. It showed up at marts and the like on mimeo'd sheets.

    Most unfortunately, it was included in a volume published by a Lenzkirch group. But someone (the who is unknown) simply divided 1 million by 43 for the first part, and wrote down a + 23,256 for each year. And then came up with a yearly + 38,875 each year beginning in 1895. This has been repeatedly shown not to fit known SNs/dates.

    You'd think someone would have noticed the 7,2,7,2,7 variation all the way down. But, because numbers are listed year after year, it has an amazingly high, uh, specious validity.

    The more recent one (e.g. Oleg refers to it) is -- with a few exceptions -- not based upon an actual check of serial numbers, using e.g. inscriptions and patent dates, etc. as checks. Rather, as its author states, it gives his estimates of production using some employee figures.

    If you look at the section copied below, you'll see that from 1899 through 1913, there's an even +39,000 increase each year.

    Regards,
    Zep
     

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  8. Oled

    Oled Registered User

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    Here's another visible escapment Lenzie from 1880 (according to trusted s/n table, backplate number 516193) for your collection. Case is oak, quite simple. Hands are terrible replacements.

    Oleg
     

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  9. Oled

    Oled Registered User

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    And these ones are really close to No36 from Lenz earliest known 1870-s catalogue. S/n 430335 = year 1878.
    Oleg
     

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  10. maxperondi

    maxperondi Registered User

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    Dear all,

    I just would like to know if anyone out there can explain to me technically what type of mechanism is my Lenzkirch type 52. Because so far I only know that they were superior to other German makers of that time but I would like to know what made their mechanism superior to the others.My I think was made around the 1908/09 period.
    Your help is appreciated.
    Thanks
    Max
     

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  11. reddust

    reddust New Member

    Feb 20, 2010
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    Everyone,
    I acquired this Lenzkirch a few months ago and am having it restored. Some of the metal decoration is missing --- light triangle area of wood below the "6". The wood dried & separated and the metal dropped off. I am looking for photos of a complete clock so I can see what I'm missing. Would like to have a replacement fabricated. Any help would be greatly appreciated!
    Clark
     

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  12. zepernick

    zepernick Deceased

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    Greetings Reddust and welcome to the NAWCC Message Board.

    The same clock is illustrated in color no less on page 132 of the 2001 volume, 150 Jahre Lenzkircher Uhren, published by the Lenzkircher-Uhren-Freunde. If you'll send an email to me off-list via duck@catzen.in-berlin.de I'll arrange to get a scan of the photo to you (I'm an LUF member).

    Regards,
    Zep
     
  13. psperber

    psperber Registered User

    Jun 12, 2009
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    I have a Lenzkirch movement with a stripped gear on the strike side. The markings on the case are as follows.

    There is a convex branch with the letters:

    AUG under the branch. The U is slightly lower then the A and G.
    There is also a number 6446 stamped on the movement along with a 2Q slightly above the 6446.

    I am not sure of the age of the unit but I seek either a similar unit that I can use for parts or some one who can reproduce the stripped gear.

    I look forward to a response

    Paul Sperber
    Chapter 142
    New Jersey
     
  14. LenzkirchFan

    LenzkirchFan Registered User
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    Hey Oled, Thanks so much for those pictures! The open escapement is especially awesome and having pictures of the movement and serial number helps me..

    LenzkirchFan
     
  15. Richard T.

    Richard T. Deceased
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    #165 Richard T., Feb 21, 2010
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2012
    Greetings LF,

    I thought I had posted pictures of my open escapement spring regulator no. 48 several years ago but will repost as soon as I have time to pull the movement, remove the dial, etc......

    Best,

    Richard T.
     
  16. LenzkirchFan

    LenzkirchFan Registered User
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    Oled,

    Will you do me the favor of checking the serial number of the movement that you say is 183370. Looking at the picture that you have posted, I think that it is 185370.

    Thanks so much!

    LenzkirchFan
     
  17. Oled

    Oled Registered User

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    Hi LenzkirchFan,

    You're 100% right, it is 185370, so the dating table is correct!

    regards,
    Oleg
     
  18. zepernick

    zepernick Deceased

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    Greetings Oleg --

    It would be unfortunate to assume that the dating table you refer to is "correct" or that it has been validated.

    Rather, it is easy enough to take known dating points or data, and compare them to the predictions made in the table based upon a hypothesis (that yearly production is tied to the number of employees, using whatever figures were available to its compiler).

    It's known for example that the "new" trademark was introduced in 1875 at SN 227,000. I've previously posted both a copy of the Lenzkirch statement (having checked on the dating) as well as a copy of the actual trademark registration. However the table you refer to has 329,593 for 1875 and 365,343 for 1876. And would have 227,007 in 1871-72).

    Or, actual production figures were published (as of Summer 2005) by our Lenzkirch group in their publication -- and then as well in English -- for some 5-year intervals. They were for the years 1865 (6,786), 1870 (17,958), 1875 (31,117), 1880 (30,205), 1885 (43,450), 1890 (56,637), 1895 (46,872), and 1900 (42,233). So one can also check how accurate the table is by checking these figures against those years. For example, for mid-1876 it would be about 258,000 (not over 365,343).

    Or actual patent dates and serial numbers and inscription dates can be used. For example, it is known that DRP 4328 was announced 24 December 1878, making that the very earliest date a clock with that DRP could have been made -- say early 1879. We have a clock with SN 421289 with that DRP. So your SN 430335 is not from 1877-1878.

    Why such validating was evidently not done is not of interest here. And what would need to be done for an accurate dating table was discussed quite early in this thread. Hubby's work with Gustav Becker is exemplary in this regard. But such would not be a casual affair.

    In the meantime, and circling back to the top of this posting, it would be unfortunate to assume that "better" is a superlative.

    Regards
    Zep
     
  19. Oled

    Oled Registered User

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    Hi Zep,
    Thank you for your great research and clarification! I just wondering why the table is not being updated? Maybe we should build our own, after all it's not that complicated :)
    Regards,
    Oleg
     
  20. LenzkirchFan

    LenzkirchFan Registered User
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    Thank you Oleg. I thought I was right.

    As far as the dating table, it is far from being exact. However, it is closer than anything that I have seen printed so far.

    It would be nice to have an accurate table but I don't think that we will every get one. :0: The Lenzkirch factory had years where they made a lot of clocks and other years where they made few to none.

    We have some known mile markers and other known facts as Zep has mentioned but there is a lot of missing pieces.

    I look at the dating table and then say that the clock was made "about" that year. It's the best we can do for now. :)

    LenzkirchFan
     
  21. Oled

    Oled Registered User

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    Here's the open escapment Lenzies I've just bought. Very large for a spring-driven viennas and very nice carved historism-styled case. Even the pendulum bob is 1.5 times bigger then normal. The movement has "26", "A" letter and s/n 1,491,665 stamped on the rear plate. Big 20-cm dial is signed with the name of "Г.Мозеръ и Ко" (Hy Mozer & Co, one of biggest Russian clock trade houses, established in 1826 in St Peterburg by swiss clock fabricant and reseller Henry Mozer). Dead-beat open escapment with ruby pallets. The movement is soooooo dusty! :confused:

    Circa 1906 (according to dating table). Strange, I thought that such case styles were of a bit earlier origin (1880-s). Maybe someone has a period Lenz catalogue?

    BR,
    Oleg
     

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  22. LenzkirchFan

    LenzkirchFan Registered User
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    Awesome Oleg!!!:)
     
  23. ntiqclokwize

    ntiqclokwize Registered User

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    I'm posting photos of a wall hanging westminster chime Lenskirch clock. From the serial number on the back plate is it possible to determine when this clock was made? Thanks, Phil
     

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  24. Oled

    Oled Registered User

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    Hi Phil,

    According to the most reliable dating table available they are from ~1918.

    What a giant movement! It looks more like a grandfather clock movement then an ordinary wall clock one.

    BR,
    Oleg
     
  25. ntiqclokwize

    ntiqclokwize Registered User

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    Hi Oleg, thanks for your info. I've seen quite a number of your input on Lenzkirch and believe you must be very well informed on Lenzkirch clocks? I've a special liking for this particular clock as it seems to have character, solidly made and probably not commonly found as compared to other brands? Kind regards, Phil
     
  26. Leedslad

    Leedslad Registered User

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    I have a Lenzkirch No. 18 Regulator in nice condition apart from the fact that the fancy 'crest' has long since gone missing from the top.
    I'm a little confused about dating the clock as different tables appear to give different dates. The Serial No. is 256105 and I'd be grateful for an opinion from Forum members.

    John.
     
  27. zepernick

    zepernick Deceased

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    #177 zepernick, Jun 8, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 8, 2010
    John Leedslad --

    Welcome to the Message Board!

    It is unfortunate that two widely-available Lenzkirch dating tables which are notoriously "off" continue to be posted on various sites. Despite, that is, the whats and the whys of their offnesses having been presented in several articles, e.g. "Lenzkirch by the Numbers" in the February 2007 issue of CLOCKS.

    A third more recent table appeared with a volume by George Everett. It is the one that is referred to above as "the most reliable." It was mainly based as its compiler states on estimates of the numbers of workers.

    Unfortunately, across the years it is not reliable, and can easily be shown not to be. In the case of your clock:

    -- A central dating point is the announcement by Lenzkirch (not by a modern researcher) in 1875 that as of 1875 and serial number 227,000 they would be using another trademark. This advertisement is below.

    -- That the date of the trademark was in 1875 is backed by a copy of the reregistration from official sources in 1895 (also below).

    -- Therefore your clock, given that SN. was made after 1875.

    -- Now look (below) at the clipping from the tables referred to above as the most reliable. It shows the second trademark being introduced in 1872. Instead of around 227,000 for (mid) 1875 it has between 329,593 to 365,342. Your clock would be dated 1871-1872, although you know that it had to be, according to Lenzkirch's own announcement, at least after 1875.

    -- Wolfgang Frey (who served as the tech expert of the Lenzkircher-Uhren-Freunde) came across handwritten notes in a diary by the son of the cofounder Paul Tritscheller, also Paul, that gave actual production figures at 5-year-intervals from 1865 to 1900. Among other specific data.

    -- These were reported in German in the Lenzkircher group's journal in 2005, and in English e.g. in the CLOCKS article mentioned above. A table from this article is below.

    -- So e.g. for 1870, Tritscheller recorded that there were 17,958 movements made. In 1875, 31,117. In 1880, 30,205. These can be compared with figures in the table (23,850 / 35,749 / 36,988).

    If you take the known figure of SN 227,000 for mid-1875, and the production figure of 31,118 for 1875-1876, you get a serial number range that fits your clock.

    However, to circle back to the top, it's not as if this information about 1875/227,000 and the five-year-interval data have not been available.

    -------

    Regards,
    Zep

    P.S. Leedslad: Just a few years ago, well, just before Christmas in 1963, I was invited over from Münster to Leeds for the holidays by a friend. And was invited to attend a party (of teachers no less) the first night. The warm welcome and good and plentiful spirits made a deep impression on me, not just the next morning. Afternoon actually. It gave me a lifelong, positive prejudice for the town.
     

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  28. Leedslad

    Leedslad Registered User

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    Hi Zep.

    Many thanks for your warm welcome and for taking the time to give me a comprehensive explanation of the situation regarding Lenzkirch Numbering. I now have a much better idea of how it works (or doesn't, depending on your viewpoint)! I've owned this clock for a number of years and like its restrained styling as compared to later Vienna Regulators and that the movement is so simple and delicate and beautifully made. Like most of these clocks it's an excellent timekeeper needing little attention apart from a weekly wind. I'm going on holiday soon but on my return I'll have a go at posting some pictures for interested folk.
    I'm pleased that you have happy memories of your visit to Leeds all those years ago. Yorkshire people are mostly very friendly and welcoming as you discovered.

    Thanks again for your help, John.
     
  29. Richard T.

    Richard T. Deceased
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    Greetings All,

    Having just read Leedslad's posting about his No. 18 Vienna with the "simple, elegant movement" I knew that there was something wrong somewhere.

    I'm talking about photos I had posted about my spring regulator 18 which is far from "simple, elegant movement"....more like robust, thick plates etc.....

    Checking further, I find that I have incorrectly identified my clock:eek:. "Vienna Regulators" of Lenzkirch and Lorenz Bob, Dana J. Blackwell was my source.
    The printing process resulted in a somewhat faint numeral in the description of the clock in question. It is actually "spring regulator No. 48,(not 18),
    14 day, open escapement, very nice case.

    Photos are below and earlier in this thread, page 15 post #146.

    https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?t=10370&page=15

    I'm glad that I have the correct "number" now.;)

    Best,

    Richard T.
     

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  30. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Richard, I corrected the model number in your original post, for future searches.
     
  31. Richard T.

    Richard T. Deceased
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    Thanks Harold ........

    Best,

    Richard T.
     
  32. Don DeMarcus

    Don DeMarcus Registered User

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    You make me feel bad I traded my large clock like yours for some Ansonia clocks.

    I wish I had it now.
     
  33. LenzkirchFan

    LenzkirchFan Registered User
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    Oh Don! I feel your pain!

    However, this was a popular model and you will get a chance to get another one.

    :D Steve
     
  34. Don DeMarcus

    Don DeMarcus Registered User

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    Not for the one hundred I paid then.
     
  35. Mike306p/Ansoniaman

    Mike306p/Ansoniaman Registered User

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    Oh so you got a deal on that one too? Way back when huh. They are all nice clocks. Mike
     
  36. ticktock

    ticktock Registered User

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    Who made Lenzkirch?

    This is an old English Bell Strike and the stamping on the back plate says,,

    Lenzkirch
    A. G.
    U.

    There is an handwritten index card on the inside of the case which says it was a clock from Scotland circa 1890.

    Anyone know where this movement was made? Circa? And what happened to the company?

    Thanks

    tick
     
  37. antiekeradio

    antiekeradio Registered User

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    Re: Who made Lenzkirch?

    Lenzkirch is a place in Germany.

    The AG/U logo is well known. there is a separate thread about lenzkirch clocks in the 'clocks' section of this board. Perhaps Clock repair is not the right section for this discussion?
     
  38. ticktock

    ticktock Registered User

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    Re: Who made Lenzkirch?

    Thank You.

    Perhaps the moderator can move this topic to that section.

    tick
     
  39. zepernick

    zepernick Deceased

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    Tick --

    Photos of the case and the movement would be helpful.

    Below the Lenzkirch trademark with the fir branch and cone and A.G.U. there should be a serial number. Above the trademark there's probably another, two-digit number.

    Regards
    Zep
     
  40. soaringjoy

    soaringjoy Registered User

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    Furtwangen, Black Forest, was really busy last weekend,
    because of the antique clock market.
    None the less, although I'm not seriously collecting clocks, I
    couldn't pass this one by.
    You know the kind of feelings you get, seeing a puppy in a pet
    store window?
    That's just what this little Lenzi bugger did to me!
    Very best overall condition, nothing even to brush up.
    Darn it, I had to take it home!:Party:
    Jurgen
     

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  41. zepernick

    zepernick Deceased

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    Jürgen --

    What a nice, clean Lenzie! It shows up in a late-1920s catalogue (identified by Everett as from 1929, but evidently the same one as shown in the 150 Jahre volume) as shown in the graphic quote below.

    Zep
     

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  42. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Looks like a quality alarm clock, Jurgen. nice find:thumb:
     
  43. zepernick

    zepernick Deceased

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    Just noticed the nicely shaped V <--> Z marking (in the fifth photo) although we more commonly expect to see, in general, F <--> S, A <--> R, both the (originally) English or French, or, on some other German-made clocks, V <--> N. And then too, something you also don't always expect to see, it's a proper German cursive Z with the cross bar to indicate that it shouldn't be read as a twosie.

    On the other hand, we need more rain, but don't expect to see it. :)

    Zep
     
  44. Steven Thornberry

    Steven Thornberry User Administrator
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    So, V -- Z; is that "vor" u. "zu" ("to" and "fro"), or is it actually an "N" taking its zweistundige Mahlzeit.:confused: Or, maybe "vast" und "zlow."
     
  45. zepernick

    zepernick Deceased

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    Steven --

    That about the two-hour, uh, mealtime is quite tasty . And the "vast" and "zlow" überhints that you're aware of phonetically conditioned voicing and devoicing. In short I laughed. :) That mumbled, it's vor and zurück (the German title for the "Back to the Future" film is "Zurück in die Zukunft").

    An interesting (cough-cough) by the way is the differences between languages in coming up with sayings or rhymes or other mnemonic devices for what to do when clocks need to be reset following daylight saving(s) time, or whatever it's called in those places that have it imposed by those who can't seem to understand that milk cows do not tell time from "the big hand and the little hand," what would be an udder disaster.

    English has the useful ambiguity of "spring" as both noun and verb, and the same with "fall" (in those national standard varieties which continue to use both "autumn" and "fall"). So we can have "Spring forward" and "Fall back." It doesn't work in German, which is noted, delightfully so, in a German Wikipedia entry that mentions one of the German devices:

    --------------
    Eine davon ist die „Straßencafé-Faustregel“: Im Frühjahr werden die Stühle vor das Lokal gestellt, im Herbst kommen sie zurück ins Lager. Im amerikanischen Englisch gibt es den Merkspruch „spring forward, fall back“, was sowohl mit „Spring vor, fall zurück“ als auch mit „Frühling vor, Herbst zurück“ übersetzt werden kann.
    --------------
    Regards
    Zep
     
  46. soaringjoy

    soaringjoy Registered User

    Feb 12, 2009
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    Germany, North Rhine-Westphalia
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    That "vast / zlow" really rocked me! Good one! :D
    At least now I'm pretty sure, the ticker is an export
    model - for the U.S. market, what else :???:

    Oh yeah, I forgot: It's a cherry housing.:p

    Jurgen
     
  47. Steven Thornberry

    Steven Thornberry User Administrator
    NAWCC Member

    Jan 15, 2004
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    Ne’er do well
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    Zuruck!! Ach, du liebe S -!!:bang:
     
  48. LenzkirchFan

    LenzkirchFan Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Aug 31, 2002
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    Here is a Lenzkirch Model 309 with the first trademark. Nice little beauty!
     

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  49. Uhren Bill

    Uhren Bill Registered User

    Jan 20, 2009
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    Municipal Division Manager, Engineering
    Lakewood, Ohio
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    Here is a small Lenzkirch. The movement serial no. is 6055, very early, with a production number 15 stamped on most parts. Label is intact. The movement bracket has the word schutzt (barely legible) cast in the right arm. According to one list the serial no. indicates an 1852 manufacture date.
     

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  50. zepernick

    zepernick Deceased

    Aug 8, 2004
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    #200 zepernick, Feb 17, 2011
    Last edited: Feb 17, 2011
    Bill -- The "label" shows the so-called new trademark so it's at least older than 1875. The layout reflects in large that on the 1883 catalogue cover page. The medal on the right for example should be labelled "Carlsruhe 1877" below. -- Zep
     

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