Post your Lenzkirch clocks here.

Discussion in 'General Clock Discussions' started by Mike306p/Ansoniaman, Jul 6, 2006.

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  1. Oled

    Oled Registered User

    Dec 8, 2009
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    Hi new2clocks,

    Both clocks of yours are very nice indeed! Hope you will have some more in the future to date them! )

    Best regards,
    Oleg
     
  2. Oled

    Oled Registered User

    Dec 8, 2009
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    Hi Piotr! Nice to hear from you! Sure, I know about these two. They are used as a marker points in the table, but since these dates (February and May) are not in the beginning of the year I had to calculate the approximate starting serial numbers both for 1894 and 1923. All the key dates, production figures, patents and LUZ/DUZ/etc articles were utilized. Not to mention near 30 clocks with presentation badges which were used just for checking. Here below you can find the part of initial calculation table, where you can see some key points and production timeline.

    Best regards,
    Oleg

    датировка Ленцкирх.jpg
     
  3. chronologiker

    chronologiker Registered User

    Jun 28, 2017
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    Oleg, I am impressed by your Lenzie-dating table.

    Here is a Lenzkirch movement with a very low serial number. As marked on the movement, this Lenzie-movement was patented in 1878. So it was made shortly after that at the earliest.

    Lenzkirch Patent 1878.jpg

    It has the serial number 5732. Obviously Lenzkirch had an extra serial number espacially for this movement

    My question is:

    Are there more Lenzie-movements with an extra serial number?


    Chronologiker
     
  4. new2clocks

    new2clocks Registered User
    NAWCC Member Sponsor

    Apr 25, 2005
    881
    21
    18
    Pennsylvania
     
  5. new2clocks

    new2clocks Registered User
    NAWCC Member Sponsor

    Apr 25, 2005
    881
    21
    18
    Pennsylvania
     
  6. new2clocks

    new2clocks Registered User
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    Apr 25, 2005
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    Chronologiker,

    If my memory serves me properly, I believe that Doug Stevenson addressed this issue in his article, Springtime in Lenzkirch, which was published in the NAWCC Bulletin approximately 10 years ago.

    If I recall correctly, Doug ascertained that low digit serial numbers produced during the years that the trademark you show was utilized pertained to what Lenzkirch considered second quality movements, although still better than any other movement provided by other companies.

    I am depending on my memory, which could be off with respect to this issue.

    Regards.

    P.S. Please ignore my last two postings, as I inadvertently provided the above answer within quote that I was replying to.

    ADMINS - to avoid confusion, please eliminate my two posts, above, and edit this response for this note and the P.S., above.
     
  7. chronologiker

    chronologiker Registered User

    Jun 28, 2017
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    New2clocks, I know Zeppernicks article "Springtime in Lenzkirch", but I have another explanation.

    All Lenzkirch collectors know this advertisement of the year 1875. At this time Lenzkirch still had one single serial number for all their movements.

    Lenzkirch Anzeige 1875.jpg

    In production, however, it is very difficult to manufacture different movements only with one single serial number. Because you do not need the same number of each movement at the same time. Usually one movement sells better than another.

    My explanation is therefore that contrary to this ad the company Lenzkirch shortly after 1875 has decided to introduce separate serial numbers for their different movements.

    I would like to know if Oleg can confirm my explanation.

    Chronologiker
     
  8. new2clocks

    new2clocks Registered User
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    Apr 25, 2005
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    Chronologiker,

    Thank you for your reply. I am interested in your point of view.

    To that end and to keep this conversation fluid, would you kindly provide a brief interpretation of the advertisement that you posted?

    Thank you.
     
  9. chronologiker

    chronologiker Registered User

    Jun 28, 2017
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    Well, an exact translation is not possible for me, because my English is not enough. I hope others will do. But I can explain:

    Lenzkirch declares the older logo was in use for the serial number 185 000 up to 237 000. Up 237 000 and higher the new logo Lenzkirch AUG with the fir branch will be in use.

    Chronologiker
     
  10. Oled

    Oled Registered User

    Dec 8, 2009
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    Hi Heinrich!

    Yes, Lenzkirch clearly declared that fact, and we dont have any evidence that in 1875 they have any other numbering system rather then the existing one. The first separate numbering has been implemented by them in late 1878 - early 1879 for the so-called "Brückenwerk" movements you have shown. Those were made according to DRP 4328 issued 21.05.1878, you can find the patent specs below. It was a low-cost "module" clockworks both t&s and time-only, and all the benefits of such construction were clearly described in the patent.

    I think Lenzkirch introduced the separate numbering in this case because of very low quality of those cheap clocks. I've attached the very early example with s/n 178 which probably could be dated December 1878 and you can see it has a painted dial instead of enamel and a very cheaply-made clockcase. Most probably this was an attempt for Lenzkirch to have a competitive pricing for some of their clocks in the time of economic problems. Please note that the movement plates were nickel-plated and all the parts were not polished.

    Then see the dating diagram for these movements below. During the first months/years of production the construction was modernized: nickel-plating was not used anymore from numbers close to 4000 and plates and some visible parts became polished. According to our database it was around 10500+ movements made with separate numbering system after which Lenzkirch started to use the common numbering system on those movements also. The first movement with common numbering in our database is 369117 which could be dated late 1880.

    Another experiment with separate numbering line was started by Lenzkirch in 1883 with II Quality movements. It was around 100000 made during 1883-1889 period.

    Best regards,
    Oleg

    DRP4328.jpg 0_000_178.JPG 1.JPG 5.JPG 7.JPG Brückenwerk_dating.jpg
     
  11. chronologiker

    chronologiker Registered User

    Jun 28, 2017
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    Oleg, very interesting your comments and observations, thank you!

    I agree: Movement patent 1878 most likely was the try to leave the expensive massive movements in French design ("Japy copies"). But I know movements according patent 1878 not only in low cost cases, but also in cases of good Lenzkirch qualitiy and with enameled dials.

    Your observations agree with documents I know: Lenzkirch sources describes in year 1877 a financial crisis.

    Chronologiker
     
  12. Oled

    Oled Registered User

    Dec 8, 2009
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    Heinrich, you're right, most probably soon they have understood that they cannot (for example) compete with US clocks on their market and continued with high quality strategy. By the way, in 1885 the price for normal sized spring-driven Lenzkirch clock (Federzug Regulateure) with simple, not very eleborate case and standard time and strike 14-days movement of I Quality was around 25-40 Marks. Same clock with movement of II Quality costed 3 Marks less. At the same time "regulators" with these "patentirten 8 Tage werken" - "Brückenwerk" movements costed 16-20 Marks. That's almost twice as less!

    What about competitors? Look at the extract from 1878 Junghans catalogue - clock in the same simple case with "Amerikaner" movement costed 27.50 Marks! Clocks in elaborate cases costed a way higher. So Lenzkirch has a very competitive business strategy at the time.

    Best regards,
    Oleg

    1885_Lenzkirch_preisliste_Brückenwerk.JPG 1885_Lenzkirch_preisliste_3_1-4_federzug.JPG Junghans Katalog deutsch 1878 50.jpg Junghans Katalog deutsch 1878 58.jpg
     
  13. chronologiker

    chronologiker Registered User

    Jun 28, 2017
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    Oleg, your prices are interesting, but I regard Junghans and Lenzkirch in 1875 not as competitors. Later yes, but not in 1875. Because both sold their clocks in different markets. An important market for Lenzies was in 1875 Russia. (Thats why some very early Lenzies returned from Russia to Germany). The main market for Junghans clocks were in 1875 the Scandinavian countries and also England.



    Here a very interisting Lenzie movement in American design. I do not know, when it was made, I guess also about 1875. It does not have one of the usual Lenzie-logos, it is stamped "Uhrenfabricke Lenzkirch". And it has no serial number.

    OG-Lenzkirch vorn klein.jpg

    You can regard this movement in Deutsches Uhrenmuseum in Furtwangen. I know 3 Lenzies with Amerikanerwerk". They all have cases in OG-design.

    Chronologiker
     
  14. Oled

    Oled Registered User

    Dec 8, 2009
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    Most interesting, Heinrich! Thanks for sharing the photo of Lenzkirch "Amerikaner" movement. Does the logo looks like here?

    Uhrenfabrik_Lenzkirch_logo.jpg
     
  15. chronologiker

    chronologiker Registered User

    Jun 28, 2017
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    Yes, it´s the same logo.

    Oleg, several years ago I did lots of studies about Lenzkirch, about the history and the owners of Lenzkirch. I think you should read my article.

    My article was published in 2013 by Deutsche Gesellschaft für Chronometrie. The article is named: "Die Uhrenfabrik Lenzkirch- Ihre Entwicklung im Spiegel zeitgeschichtlicher Umstände und ihrer Besitzverhältnisse."

    It was published in Jahresschrift der DGC 2013, pages 97-114.

    This article can be requested by anyone for a small fee from the DGC Library:

    Services und Kontakt Email: bibliothek@dg-chrono.de


    Best regards!

    Chronologiker
     
  16. chronologiker

    chronologiker Registered User

    Jun 28, 2017
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    I would like to add the following:

    In 2014, the NAWCC was considering to publishe my article on Lenzkirch in English in the NAWCC Bulletin.
    But unfortunately, there was no publication because no translator could be found.

    But of course today a publication in the NAWCC Bulletin would be conceivable.

    Chronologiker
     
  17. Oled

    Oled Registered User

    Dec 8, 2009
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    Thanks Heinrich, sure, that's very interesting and I will try to get your article! It should be translated don't think it is an issue in today's world. You can even utilize me if needed ))

    What do you think, why these round logo has different writings - one is "Uhrenfabrik Lenzkirch" and the other is "Uhrenfabricke Lenzkirch"? In my observations this "Uhrenfabrik Lenzkirch" round logo was used in 1861-62, most probably in the account of 1861 London exhibition, when Lenzkirch have tried to make it's way on foreign markets. This Amerikanerwerk in Deutsches Uhrenmuseum is alost an exact copy of 30-hour Chauncey Jerome / New Haven brass movements from 1850-60-s.

    Best regards,
    Oleg
     
  18. chronologiker

    chronologiker Registered User

    Jun 28, 2017
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    Oleg, about your questions:

    1) I have no idea, why there are 2 versions of this round logo. But I found a source that up to 1867 Lenzkirch didn´t produce movements but bought all movements in France. (you will find this information in my article.) So this round logo on this Lenzie-Amerikanerwerk can´t have been in use before 1867. My feeling is it might have been in use about 1874 at the latest. And also I would date this Lenzie-Amerikanerwerk.

    2) mostly all industrial American movements are very similar and I am no expert on American movements. So I cannot say, wether this Lenzie-Amerikanerwerk looks more like a Waterbury or a New Haven. (May be our experts Steven Thornberry or RMarkowitz can answer this question?)
    And unfortunately the anchor-bridge of this Lenzie-Amerikanerwerk is a replacement!

    Here 1 more photo of the logo of this Lenzie-Amerikanerwerk for your studies.

    OG-Lenzkirch Label klein.jpg

    Good night!

    Chronologiker
     
  19. shutterbug

    shutterbug Super Moderator
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    Oleg, I'm curious about the difference in your signed name and the one on your avatar. Is the avatar spelled wrong, or is there another reason?
     
  20. LenzkirchFan

    LenzkirchFan Registered User
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    Hello chronologiker,

    You might want to read my article in the September/October 2014 Bulletin, "Lenzkirch Secrets Revealed". I explain that Lenzkirch ran a second series of serial numbers for 100,000 clocks. Your clock with a low serial number is one of these clocks. I believe these 100,000 clocks were made sometime between 1875 and 1878.

    Steve
     
  21. chronologiker

    chronologiker Registered User

    Jun 28, 2017
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    Thank you Steve. I will ask the DGC-Library for a copy of your article.

    Chronologiker
     
  22. Oled

    Oled Registered User

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  23. shutterbug

    shutterbug Super Moderator
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    Sure, no problem Oleg. I was just going to offer to help you fix it if it was a mistake :)
     
  24. chronologiker

    chronologiker Registered User

    Jun 28, 2017
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    One of our collegues (Thank you very much!) will make a translation of this Lenzkirch article for the bulletin. He is already in contact with! the bulletin.

    In German this article can be requested for free as a pdf document at bibliothek@dg-chrono.de (Keyword: Lenzkirch-Artikel in Jahresschrift 2013).

    @ Steve: Now I have your article, too. Thank you to your efforts!


    Chronologiker
     
  25. Oled

    Oled Registered User

    Dec 8, 2009
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    Dear Colleagues,

    I would like to ask those who have deep knowledge on early American clocks to have an expert look at these photo of a 30-hour weight-driven Lenzkirch movement from Deutsches Uhrenmuseum in Furtwangen. It was installed in a typical OG-shaped case. It's frame and construction looks very close to industrial movements made by some American companies in ~1840-60-s. Especially those broken-arch cut-outs are very characteristic. But I see the different (reversed) wheel layout, and probably some other features. When American companies has changed the style of the movement frame (or switched from broken-arch cut-outs to cut-outs of different shape)? We need a clue to have some approximate dating of the movement.

    Another photo shows another Lenzkirch clock from the "Heimatstube" collection in Lenzkirch as it was published in 2013 Deutsche Gesellschaft für Chronometrie Lenzkirch article by Hans-Heinrich Schmid. This clock has 8-day movement (winding arbors are located much lower). Can you tell the approximate date of manufacture on the style of the case or dial/tablet features in comparison to American clocks?

    Thank you very much in advance!

    Best regards,
    Oleg

    OG-Lenzkirch vorn klein.jpg OG-Lenzkirch Label klein.jpg OG-Lenzkirch.jpg
     
  26. LenzkirchFan

    LenzkirchFan Registered User
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    Hello Oleg,

    I see that stamp on the movement but I will never believe that it was made by Lenzkirch. Never!

    I now own the clock that has the round logo that you show with serial number 25296. I think that you are exactly correct that it was a special stamped movement for a clock show such as the 1861 London exhibition. At that time they were buying their movements from the French. I believe that Lenzkirch finished the movements and in this particular situation, used a French style round stamp to mark the clock for a special exhibition. This was well before they first started stamping every movement with their well-known AUG first trademark.

    Steve
     
  27. Oled

    Oled Registered User

    Dec 8, 2009
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    Hi Steve!

    Remember that "never say never"? :) Only time will tell, but I have a feeling that these ogees are true Lenzkirch. They have experimented a lot during end of 1850-s and in 1860-s: Lenzkirch started to make their own first weight driven regulator movements in 1857-58, most probably according to request from Russian merchants; they've changed a lot in design of movements and clock cases after 1862 London World Fair (it was in 1862 and not 1861 - my mistake).

    I guess that was a time when they tried to feel the change and get every chance to be competitive on the market. American mass-production clocks probably at first looked like a dream come true for German clockmakers: they were cheap and made of brass :) (opposite to typical Black Forest wooden-plated movements). But I can imagine soon there were talks and discussions about the quality and durability of such movements by other clockmakers on the exhibitions and in the press (as it was usual for Germans), and the project was closed.

    Steve, I totally agree that the round Lenzkirch stamp was probably made similar to the French stamps of the time. Another interesting fact is that on ogee movement the stamp reads "Uhrenfabricke", which is an old, used in 16-18 c. German version of the word "Uhrenfabrik". The type of hands used on ogee is an early type, used by Lenzkirch in 1850-60-s.

    Best regards,
    Oleg
     
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