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Post your Lenzkirch clocks here.

Richard T.

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Lenzkirch Spring Regulator No. 48, Open escapement, 15 day movement. Circa 1875



Right: Lenzkirch No. 365 1 WT, time only, 8 day, Circa 1875.





Richard T.
 

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Silber Fuchs

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Lenzkirch Vienna Regulator
Kaiserslautern, Germany
I purchased this here and need to refinish it.
Movement has been serviced and runs perfectly.
Is a solid brass hammer original? Refinishing it, I really don't want to ruin the value by over refinishing/repairing the appearance issues.
Any suggestions?
(NAWCC #155738)

45.jpg
 

Steve Cunningham

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I recently sold a 9 foot tall Lenzkirch musical open well, tall case clock. It had a Polyphon Disc Music Box in the base, and was set up to play on the hour. If I could figure out to post an image here, I would.
 

Mike306p/Ansoniaman

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Hi Steve I would like to see your clock photos. If you can send me the photo I will post or check out how to make a Flickr account and post yourself through the easy directions at the top of this clock site, titled how to post . Mike chevyragtop57@aol.com
 

Silber Fuchs

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I hate to say this but, at a distance this piece looks OK, but there are some serious problems with the black corner pieces on the door. They have exposure problems, deep cracking and shrinkage, and a chunk missing from the upper left corner black piece (I have no idea what to call them). Other than stripping them and filling in the cracks and refinish the surface, I really don't know what to do. The finials are prestine. Would you like a larger pic of each area of intrest? I would hate to ruin this piece over my ambition to (near/not expecting) perfection.

Thanks Scotty.
 

harold bain

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Scottie, I think he did!! I had to wipe the drool off my keyboard. That is a beautiful collection, Steve. Thanks for sharing :biggrin:
Harold
 

BIG D

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Really nice stuff Steve.
I think it is so neat to have those "little twins".

Sorry Scottie, Im closer to Jackson, Mo. and can pick them up on a days notice. You know as well as me it would not be right to ship those precious little babies all alone!!!!
 

LenzkirchFan

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Thanks Don.

I don't know the model number of this one but it is a nice single weight. I have several more to post over the next few days.

Steve

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LenzkirchFan

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You are exactly right on the weight Scottie. It had a large weight on it and I had this smaller one sitting on top of the desk and just used it. I have an original Lenzkirch (small) weight on it now. Steve
 

Mike306p/Ansoniaman

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This 1 weight belongs to a friend "Dana". She thought it was a Lenzkirch,however it is NOT marked. Her question is. Were all of the Lenzkirch marked ? Mike

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Richard T.

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Hi Mike,

In July of 2005 we had a quite a long discussion about unmarked Lenzkirch movements.

You might find this interesting reading:

old ref::Unmarked Lenzkirch

Regards,

Richard T.
 

LenzkirchFan

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Hi Mike,

Give us a picture of the movement (back), the bracket and the pendulum and I will tell you if it is a Lenzkirch or not. The first 185,000 clocks that Lenzkirch made did not have a trade mark on them.

Steve
 
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Ralph

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Mike,

I picked up a 2 weight with the same case this weekend. It's movement is signed Schultz.

Ralph
 

Richard T.

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The first 185,000 clocks that Lenzkirch made did not have a trade mark on them.
Hello Steve,

No offense intended, but do you have a source for the above statement. Just wanted to know for future reference.

Thanks and best regards,

Richard T.
 
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LenzkirchFan

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No offence taken Richard.

Our good friend, Karl Kochmann, put a book together titled, "Clock & Watch Trademark Index" which most of us own. He documented a joint advertisement between Lenzkirch and Gustav Becker warning the industry that there were forgeries of their clocks being made. Other companies were trying to cash in on the quality and popularity associated with Lenzkirch and Gustav Becker clocks.

The advertisement showed the two trademarks used by Lenzkirch and the one that had been used by G. Becker up to this time. Lenzkirch shows their first trademark, which was the three or four letters, AUG or AUGL, written in script on the back plate. They showed that this first trademark was used between serial numbers 185,000 and 227,000. Their new trademark, which we see the most, was used from serial number 227,000 up to their last clock which was numbered over 2 million.

The Lenzkirch first trademark was first used with production number 185,000. Their clocks made before serial number 185,000 were unmarked.

This is also mentioned in the book, "150 Years Lenzkircher Clocks" that was produced by the Lenzkircher Clock Friends. They show the first trademark and explain that it was used between production numbers 185,000 and 227,000.

By the way, I belong to the Lenzkircher Clock Friends and I'm sure more Americans are welcome to join.

Steve
 

Richard T.

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Hello Steve,

Thank you for your very informative reply. I do have both of the referenced books and now remember the part about other manufacturers trying to take advantage of the Lenzkirch name etc. I will read that again today.

Thanks,

Richard T.
 

csers

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Hi,
Here's a Lenzkirch that I own. The movement has the following logo:

2.gif

The serial number is 696900. Does this serial number correspond to a manufacture date between 1885-1890 or post 1928?

Here's the clock:

56.jpg
57.jpg

Is there a model number associated with this clock?

The case is oak, and I believe there are supposed to be finials on each top corner and below the skirt.

Thanks
 

MUN CHOR-WENG

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Here's another 2-weight Lenzkirch ( # 519604 )
somewhat similar to the last one shown except for the difference in the headpiece.

Mun C.W. 1.gif 58.jpg
 

Richard T.

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I think this is a picture of "Csers" clock and as you can see it would have had three finials on the lower part of the case.

59.gif

Regards,

Richard T.
 

csers

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Steve and Scottie,

Thanks for the comments. I still am not quite clear on the manufacture date of the the model 559.
The serial number 696900 would indicate it was manufactured between 1895 and 1890. However the the trademark has the designation "1 million", so is the serial number then 1 million plus the 696900? If not, what is the significance of the "1 million" in the trademark.

Thanks,

Regards
 

zepernick

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It's more than unfortunate, I feel, that we keep going over some of the same information in this matter of Lenzkirch dating, serial numbers and trademarks. Does anyone actually bother to read the earlier threads?

The newsletter of the Lenzkircher-Uhren-Freunde (the group LenzkirchFan refers to), _Der Lenzkircher Uhrenfreund_ has in fact been carrying a series of articles about serial numbers, trademarks and dating. Indeed, some are German translations made by the editors of articles which have appeared in English by my less-than-more friend Stevenson.

In addition, they have been reporting on some on-going research to establish dating matrices which are actually based upon objective criteria, rather than estimates of estimates. These include gathering data about clocks which have inscriptions, patent numbers and the like.

What is already established, however, is that Kochmann was not overly accurate, alas, in not a few matters. These areas have been detailed in these articles (while carefully, I would stress, trying to separate the kind author from the matter).

Among these are that the advertisement LenzkirchFan refers to did not appear in the Deutsche Uhrmacher-Zeitung in 1875. The DUZ wasn't even published until 1877. A subsequent search found out that it did at least appear in 1875, elsewhere.

As another example, the advertisement does not say, as Kochmann has it, that "the undersigned manufacturer(s) found that misuse and forgery took place..." Rather, "they felt obliged" to issue the Warnung in order to prevent or preclude (vorzubeugen) this from happening. Two phrases in the original were also simply omitted in the English translation.

Other examples that have been detailed in these articles are, for instance, that the key 1 million movement serial number is dated by K as 1900. Or that production data (e.g. Table IX in the Lenzkirch and W&H volume) is way off. Kochmann miscopied or misread or miswhatever for example the 1871 data he cited as coming from Kahlert's volume (actually Großuhren 1880).

And as a final example of why such articles have been in the _Uhrenfreund_, there is quite obviously a problem with the TM and serial number pairing schemes as previously presented. And as is still being presented here, one might note <g>. Indications can be seen in Kochmann's little volume itself.

A frequently cited example is Plate 94 where a movement with the "post-227,000" trademark has the "very low" serial number 2838. What the 2Q (which K called "production control No. lot 20) might indicate has been discussed in articles in English and in Der Lenzkircher Uhrenfreund as well as well as here.

(Sorry, but you don't often get a chance to well as well that well).

But one can turn over the page, and see in Plate 99 another movement with the later trademark and the serial number -- according to K an "early production serial" number -- of 47806.

My point here however, and going back to the top, is that none of the above is new.

It's bad enough that several should-know-better websites give the averaged dating tables (which were also, oh moan, in our Lenzkircher group's volume) as useful. Although someone just divided 1,000,000 by 43 years!

What's worse is that we know they're way off. As anyone can see (or could see if it weren't for "but...but...they're in a book!") they're way off. For instance, by taking that 227,000 serial number we know comes from right round 1875. These really-accurate-looking tables would indicate that a movement with that number was made between 1860 and 1861. Or viewed differently, that a movement made around 1875 would have a serial number of around 558,114! And even here, the number "should be" (someone typo'd) 558,144 ie 24 x 23256.

My own conclusion to "all of the above", with all good humor, but with no desire to hold a horo-missionary position let alone the nth time around, is that this is essentially a waste of time.
 
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zepernick

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Hello Cser -- When it's been up around 115'F in Arizona as it was last week, I can imagine that St. Johns is a nice place to be. But to your Lenzie.

The model numbers and models come from an 1883 catalogue, the original of which is, I believe, in the Franziskaner-Museum in Villingen. It appears so often in reprinted form because it was included, with a matching price list, in Professor Helmut Kahlert's volume, _Großuhren 1880_, published in 1985 by the Deutsches Uhrenmuseum in Furtwangen.

It gets picked up for example in the _150 Jahre Lenzkircher Uhren_ volume published by the Lenzkircher_Uhren-Freunde group. But you can get the full catalogue reprint by borrowing _Großuhren 1880_ from the NAWCC Library. Or by even buying your own copy, which can be carried in your car, for emergencies!

The 1 millionth movement (which survives) is inscribed "Februar 1894", and any movement with 1 million on it is assumed to follow that date. Your 1,696,900 among them.

Some of the initial objective-dating information being gathered by the Lenzkirch group show a clock movement with serial number 1468569 with an inscription of 29 June 1905. So, hm, that has to have been made before then. Other production date also newly reported seem to support an average of *roughly* 50,000 serial-number-units a year round the turn of the century. So all said let's say round 1908 or so. Regards, Duck
 

csers

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Duck,

Thanks for taking the time to explain the nuances of Lenzkirch serial numbers.

Bottom line: It's a nice clock and if it is close to being a century old, a few more years one way or the other make little difference to me.

Regards
 

LenzkirchFan

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You are so right Duck. You notice that I gave csers the model number of his clock but I avoided the dating completely. It's not worth getting into right now. Maybe, one of these days, we something better to go on than dividing 1,000,000 by 43 years!

Steve
 

John Hubby

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LenzkirchFan says,
Maybe, one of these days, we something better to go on than dividing 1,000,000 by 43 years!
"Someone" needs to do the same thing I am doing for Gustav Becker clocks. Start collecting data in a spreadsheet, beginning with serial number and then adding data fields that will help identify models, descriptions, related patents, trade advertisements, technical and commercial references, etc. After you get about 2-300 clocks in the database in sequence by serial number, you will be amazed at the patterns that begin to form from which you can make informed judgements about the dating of these clocks. Takes time, patience, and a singleminded approach to record every single clock you come across.

It works. And then yes, one of these days, there will be a serious and irrefutable Lenzkirch dating reference.

John Hubby
 
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LenzkirchFan

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That's a good point John. I guess I am on the route to doing something similar to that. I have a couple thousand pictures of Lenzkirch clocks and I try to capture the serial number on all that I can. It's amazing how things start to come together after you get enought pictures to see the trends.

Steve
 

MUN CHOR-WENG

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Hi steve,

It's good to know your're building a Lenzkirch database that will ultimately help collectors identify and date their Lenzkirch clocks.
In this regards I can pass on to you any information or pictures on Lenzkirch that I come across such as this set of pictures( see below ) that I recorded off ebay not too long ago. I hope you find them useful.

2.jpg 3.jpg

Regards

Mun C.W.
 

zepernick

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Gentlefolk -- My goodness what a good idea!

A couple of years ago appeals were made on behalf of the Lenzkirch group for anyone with independently datable Lenzkirch clocks (those with inscriptions, or with receipts, etc.) to send the information with photos to the group. Addresses and specifics were supplied. I'm familiar with this appeal as I'd written the requests.

These requests were published -- please note -- in the NAWCC Bulletin, in CLOCKS magazine, in Antiquarian Horology, and in the Horological Journal. They were also attached to a series of articles on Lenzkirch dating problems.

I suspect that most of you read one or the other of these. The response was pathetic.

Regards,
Duck
 

John Hubby

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Duck, I've found responses to such appeals to be a bit anemic at best, until you get a kind of "critical mass" of interested collectors involved enough that they start searching the Internet themselves to find information. I now have seven persone that are constantly on the lookout for something unusual regarding GB clocks, and the volume of responses continues to increase monthly.

HOWEVER: I still takes at least ONE PERSON interested and dedicated enough to record the data, photos, etc. and keep after it with single-minded purpose. If that doesn't happen, it won't happen . . !!

Just to provide an idea, I've copied a very small section of my spreadsheet for GB clocks and show it here. 62.jpg Data on this one include Serial Number, Back Plate Number (Horolovar Repair Guide), several movement characteristics, base style bezel style, specific logo on the clock, dating info, where I got the info, inscription info if present, and general comments including a detailed description of the dials and other stuff.

NOTE that his happens to cover the period when GB introduced the pallet inspection holes in the backplates of their 400-Day clocks. Under the column "INSP. HOLE" you will see a series of "N" (None), to a series of "Y" (Yes), showing exactly where the transition took place. This same kind of info is found for numerous other GB features both on 400-Day and gravity pendulum clocks.

It "does" involve a lot of data input . . but very much worth the effort.

John Hubby
 

zepernick

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Greetings John -- Perhaps my point wasn't made directly enough. There is a critical group as it were of Lenzkirch folk. It's an independent group called the Lenzkircher-Uhren-Freunde e.V. with over 100 dues-paying members in several countries, their own Newsletter, a notable volume already published and so on. And they *have* been gathering information and doing research on dating and publishing articles in both English and German for some time. In short, it might well seem presumptuous for those who have not bothered to find out what has been done to suggest what should be done. Regards, Duck
 

zepernick

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Which of course -- he added <g> -- is not to say that fellow LUF-member Steve should not be volunteered to carry out such an intensively applied role now, with the active support, needless to say, of us-all, for with so many Lenzie photos already,'tis already a good start.

LenzkirchFan, would you be willing to be so volunteered? It's easier to say yes if you don't think about all that's involved.

Regards, Duck
 

LenzkirchFan

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Well Duck, I might be interested. But I need to know more of what I would be volunteering for. What is everyone wanting to see as an end result?

Steve
 

zepernick

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Greetings Steve --

Your Frühjahr/Sommer 2005 issue of _Der Lenzkircher Uhrenfreund_ has a summary 'Zum Thema Werknummer' of current research. And of course also the new old data that Wolfgang Frey has found about workers, production figures (both movements and complete clocks), wages, sales figures etc. among the handwritten notes from the son of Lenzkirch co-founder Paul Tritscheller.

This material, along with some corrections and additions, has been summarized in English and will appear as an article 'Lenzkirch by the Numbers' in CLOCKS.

Since then, and in addition, *all* historical German Lenzkirch patents, both DRPs and DRGMs, have now been collected. An article giving these with commentary will appear (in German) in the next issue of _Der Lenzkircher Uhrenfreund_.

So what we now have, what we now have through LUF already, are quite a few more dating points -- points which are objectively valid. They can serve as cattle-chutes, so to speak, for all the movements which carry serial numbers, but are otherwise un-branded.

As John Hubby would no doubt also emphasize, these objectively datable date-by-serial-number points -- whether through inscriptions or German patents or receipts etc. -- are of *fundamental* importance. And this is especially so because the Kochmann dating matter for Lenzkirch was in even worse shape than his Beckerian. Alas etc.

In short, more of these serial-number-by-date unit points need to be collected, someone needs to record them and pass them on to LUF, and have the other 'unbrandeds' fit among them, and available for researchers, as well as keeping the tally.

The desired result would be what we are now getting close to for Becker. Which is (1) fairly reliable dating guidelines, and certainly more important in the short run (2) an awareness internationally of why these were needed.

Regards, Duck
 

LenzkirchFan

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I have not seen a lot of Lenzkirch clocks that have inscriptions or dates on them. I did see one on Ebay a few months ago that had a small plaque that was dated. I'll get it looked up. I don't recall any other ones in my picture collection that had something dated on it. However, I will look through them to see.

I will be glad to gather and be a collection point for any information that can help and I would pass it on to our friends in Lenzkirch. When we decide what would be good information to gather on a spreadsheet I would be glad to do that also.

Some time back, I started putting down serial numbers and the type movement. Right now, I don't guess that is important but it might prove interesting in the future.

Steve
 

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