Post your IBM/ITR Time Recorder Clocks here

Discussion in 'General Clock Discussions' started by harold bain, Jun 3, 2010.

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  1. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Hi, Tom, welcome to the message board.
    A picture may help to date your clock. Does it have a serial number plaque? Your number sounds like it could be a part number. If your clock was made in the USA, and this really is it's serial number, it was made prior to 1916, but can't narrow it down any further.
     
  2. John Lippold

    John Lippold Registered User
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    Hi Tom,
    If your clock is a (made in the USA) ITR Card Recorder it was probably made in May 1910.
    John
     
     
     
  3. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    John, Tom hasn't found his way back since posting his question.
    Do you have a serial number data base that goes further back than the one at the IBM archives? It starts at 1917 with 55,001, and jumps to 145,000 at year end, indicating 90,000 serial numbered clocks were built in that year.
     
  4. John Lippold

    John Lippold Registered User
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    Harold,
    Yes, I have one dating back to 1906 for the ITR Card Recorders. I'm hoping to be able to put together a date/serial number listing for all the early pre 1917 ITR clocks. Prior to 1917 each Style or Model had its own unique serial number range. This was probably a result of the fact that so many companies were merged together to form International Time Recording. In 1917 all the Styles or Models were combined in a single serial number range.
    That's why all the date/serial number listings published always start at 1917 and why it appears so many clocks were made that year. If you have access to any pre 1917 ITR clocks or know anyone who does and is willing to share information about them please let me know. You can email me direct at j.lippold@comcast.net.
    John
     
  5. bkerr

    bkerr Registered User
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    I was up in the shop taking some pictures for the PW guys. I snapped a couple of pictures of a time recorder that I purchased a couple of years ago that had the wrong movement in it. After a rebuild this one is running well. I have two more to go. Pctures of those to follow some day

    . IMG_1614.jpg IMG_1615.jpg IMG_1616.jpg
     
  6. Dan Hanniman

    Dan Hanniman New Member

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    I have a IBM Cost Recorder model 8001 serial # 2503805 installed Mar 19, 1925, i'm missing the winding crank/key and the latch for the cabinet, don't know what they look like either.
     
  7. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Hi, Dan, welcome to the message board. You will have to measure the flat of the wind arbor to see what size key is needed. It's a "T" shaped large key. Timesavers shows two sizes, a #20 (6.4mm, part # 10173) and a #23 (7.0 mm, part # 10065). You will have to decide which one fits yours.
    www.timesavers.com
    As for the latch, is it the hook-eye part that holds the bottom of the case? Or the door lock latch?
     
  8. bkerr

    bkerr Registered User
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    Now I remember a question that I was going to ask you guys. On the pic of the dial above in my post, why do you think they have the holes on the outer chapter? There must have been some reason?
     
  9. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Bob, I've never seen a dial with holes like that, so I can't really say why they are there. Only possibility I can think of is some kind of an electrical connection to ring a bell at 5 minutes to the hour, two minutes to the hour, and on the hour and same on the half hour. An isolated pin, catching the minute hand could complete a low voltage circuit for a bell.
     
  10. Dan Hanniman

    Dan Hanniman New Member

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    thanks for the info Harold
    its is the door lock latch, also need to get a key for the lock. would you have any pictures of the latch and or key?? thanks
     
  11. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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  12. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    #62 harold bain, Feb 4, 2013
    Last edited: Jan 30, 2018
    The clock pictured here is an IBM model 8700, made in Canada in 1964. I have looked after it for the foundry it's installed in since about 1969. I last overhauled it in 1982, and found it was due for this work again. Took up most of last weekend putting it back into first rate condition. I think this was the pinnacle of IBM's engineering of mechanical time recorders. It was introduced in 1938 as the 8500 series, and continued to be made by Simplex until about 1980 (I sold my last one for Simplex in 1979). These are a pleasure to work on, if you understand the mechanics involved. Uses a capacitor start motor to drive it, and a Synchron motor for timing it. This one has the two color ribbon and bell ringer options.
    I wonder if these will ever be considered collectable?

    IBM 8700_0228.jpg IBM 8700_0224.jpg IBM 8700_0225.jpg IBM 8700_0226.jpg IBM 8700_0227.jpg
     
  13. tsmith

    tsmith Registered User

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    ITR and IBM with IBM slave.




    DSC00858a.jpg DSC00859a.jpg
     
  14. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Nice pair of master clocks, Tom. They are great timekeepers.
     
  15. tsmith

    tsmith Registered User

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    They do keep good time but the IBM clock is a bit noisy. I also need to find the time to set up the slave.

     
  16. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    I've got a couple of those double dial clocks in my garage, with nowhere to mount them. Both of my model 25 masters have been converted to motor wind (before I bought them), so are pretty quiet, other than a little moan out of the motors as they move the ratchet click.
     
  17. tsmith

    tsmith Registered User

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    Harold, the IBM would still be in the house if it were as quiet as the ITR. Wife doesn't care for the frequent klunk. It would be ok with her if it occured every 4-5 hours.
    It's a good thing that the ITR motor runs quiet because it seems to take 10 minutes to crank the weights up.
    All of my electric clocks from that era seem to be well made and have nice wood and cabinet work.
     
  18. Bruce Barnes

    Bruce Barnes Registered User

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    Hi Howard,I was looking at Karen's dial clock and I am curious,is this a complete clock or perhaps missing the base?Also where does one place their time card for recording?Was there a reason for this design,maybe to accomodate a small space?
    I can see where these clocks have a definite allure.
    Regards,
    Bruce
     
  19. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Small space? These things are enormous. Mine is 35 inches long, 17 inches wide, and 35 inches tall (not counting the punch mechanism). They are not card clocks, but "dial clocks", where the lever on the front (the dial) is swung around to the employee's number then pressed in to record his time on a paper on a drum inside the machine. The term "dialled in" likely originates with these, in place of "punched in".
     
  20. Bruce Barnes

    Bruce Barnes Registered User

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    Thanks Harold,the perspective didn't quite give credence to it's size the one I am looking at is 27 tall and 18 wide............When did they decide to use dial in rather than punch in or was the option based upon the company size.Is the drum in Karens clock hidden from view or did her clock sit in the drum mechanism.
     
  21. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Card punching came after these dial clocks, and was tied up in patents for quite a while (although I believe the dial clocks were made by IBM into the 1940's, in motor driven versions). The picture doesn't give any side perspective. The drum is behind the front of the clock. Most had side glass doors so you can see the drum when you see one of these in person. I suppose it would have been a two or three man job to deliver and install one of these in a factory. There were different sizes depending on how many employees were using the clock. The two door model was about half the size of the four door model.
    attachment.jpg
     
  22. Bruce Barnes

    Bruce Barnes Registered User

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    Thanks Harold for the good ground school.the one I am looking at doesn't have the two row dial and the black support work is fancier,also the small brass dial has only twelve increments.From what I can see the one I am interested in is the two door model,one door above the other.
     
  23. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Post some pictures, if you can, Bruce.
     
  24. Bruce Barnes

    Bruce Barnes Registered User

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    Hi Harold,it is still on a sale site,I will see if I can get permission to use the photo....was this style clock and dial an IBM exclusive and did they have a contract with Seth Thomas tosupply the clock mechanisms?
    Thanks,
    Bruce
     
  25. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Bruce, here's a thread with some good pictures of a 4 door model (two doors on each side):
    https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?75628-IBM-Dial-Recorder-%28Electric%29
    The movements originally were Seth Thomas, as were most of the other time recorders seen in the early 1900's. The dial recorder was invented by Dr. Alexander Dey in 1888, in Abernathy, Scotland. It wasn't til 1899 that John Dey, brother of the inventor, took out a US patent on the device. They made these clocks in Syracuse, New York under the name, Dey Time Register Company. ITR bought the company in 1907.
     
  26. Bruce Barnes

    Bruce Barnes Registered User

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    Great photos and great information,it is apparent that the one I am looking at is a 2 door model and for a smaller company..........
     
  27. Bruce Barnes

    Bruce Barnes Registered User

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    time clock 2.jpg Hi Harold,I received permission to post the photo................
    Bruce
     
  28. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    #78 rmarkowitz1_cee4a1, Jan 24, 2015
    Last edited by a moderator: Jan 30, 2018
    Every so often I like to step out of my comfort zone...if it doesn't cost too much and I don't screw up too bad.

    So, when I found this ITR job recorder a while ago on one of my ME picking routes, I threw the dice.

    Comments and advice would be genuinely appreciated. It's how I learn.

    This is one big and rather heavy clock. It's 41 1/4 inches tall.

    The entire case is 1/4 sawn oak in it's original crusty finish. Don't have shots of the sides where the grain really shows.

    The inside label indicates it was sold on June 15, 1927. That jives with the date I can find for the serial number.

    It has a single glazed door. The glass is undisturbed. It does not have a transfer on the glass as do a number of the examples that I found on line and in the literature. However, there is a transfer on the lower door frame. It is under what appears to be the original undisturbed finish that uniformly covers the case, so I think it's right and original.

    Any thoughts on that?

    The white painted metal dial is signed. Note the winding indicators still have what appear to be their original little arrows. The dial mounts to the same heavy cast iron frame to which the movement mounts. Note the dial mask which mounts to the case. It is metal and matches the metal part on the bottom. It is very well made, fits perfectly, there are no extraneous screw holes nor shadows. It has the serial # of the clock written on it in graphite. Now, most of the ones I saw were wood though I did in fact find several on line with a metal surround of similar shape.

    Any thoughts on that?

    I like that this model has a seconds bit. Many of the job and time recorders I saw in the literature and on line do not. Note the rather wide opening for the seconds bit. That worried me at first then I realized it was necessary. Read on.

    Great movement. Dead beat escapement. Makes the best tick-tock noise you can imagine. Note the stop works and the mechanism for the winding indicators. Also note that there is a collar with a pin that is screwed to the seconds bit. Every minute it trips an electrical connection. Does not appear to be jerry rigged. And oh yes, if one wants to remove the dial, you need to remove the seconds bit with its collar first which then requires a larger opening. Makes sense!

    The time punch "guts" are complete and connected to the movement. No ink ribbon but everything else is there and works.

    Now, note the other stuff. That big chrome plated gear marked with the hours, "day", "night" etc with little lugs which can be moved and then secured in place. They trip another electrical connection. It is run off of the main movement. Based upon my research, I believe all of this electrical stuff was designed to drive a system of bells which were powered by a dry cell or other source of low current. Note the means of egress for the wiring in the top of the case. This clock was not just a job recorder, but could also serve as sort of a master clock for a small factory. It rang bells at preset intervals. The mechanism is all there though the rod to connect it to the movement, which is probably just like the one to drive the time punch, is gone. But, I don't think that would be a complicated fabrication for the right person. Also note a swiveling switch which allows one to disconnect the bells and a push button to ring the bells.

    For info about a similar mechanism in a "wheel type program clock", see earlier on this very thread. That mechanism appears to have an added calendar function so the bells won't ring on certain days. The one in this clock is simpler and does not.

    See this thread for a what's left of a similar clock: https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?63247-International-Time-Recorder

    Note it has the same auxiliary mechanism which also makes it a combination "wheel type program clock" and time recorder. Note the wiring, larger opening for the seconds arbour which indicates to me it has the same arrangement as mine, the holes in the top, etc. These findings were not, as asserted, an indication that the movement was electrified though it may have been!

    Also see this clock which sold through R.O. Schmitt's in 2011 (hope this link works):
    international Time Recording Co., Endicott, N.Y. dark stained wood 8 day time clock, c1910.
    CONDITION: large heavy time card recorder in old finish. Very good painted metal dial. Twin spring pendulum movement also advances time recording mechanism in base, all needing cleaning. 43.5" high.
    Click Here for Photo #1
    Click Here for Photo #2
    Click Here for Photo #3
    2011-05-14
    0511:380




    Note metal dial surround, larger opening for seconds bit and "internal" arrangement. The program wheel in that clock is missing the adjustable lugs.

    Found some additional resources.

    On the IBM website, there is a "clock corner" : IBM - Archives - Exhibits - Clock corner - United States

    Nice source of information and there is a photo gallery.

    Finally, please let me encourage everyone to read the fabulous series of Bulletin articles written about these clocks by Joseph M. Gensheimer. Do a Bulletin search to find them. Must reads if you have any interest in these clocks.

    By the way, the Boston Showcase Company, founded in 1911 by a Mr. Starr in Roxbury, MA is still in business in Newton, MA and still run by the Starr family. I emailed them seeking any information they had as well as providing them with pix of the clocks. Man, I would have loved a period pic of workers "punching" this clock! Alas, no information but they were very gracious and seemed genuinely pleased to have the information and pictures.

    So please, any thoughts, comments, additional information. They would be greatly appreciated.

    And by the way, who needs steamjunk when you can have the real thing? Kind of ironic that I found this on a steamjunk website:

    Steampunk Punch Clock Icon

    Sorry, more of my opinionated opinions.

    RM

    IMG_6308.JPG IMG_6309.JPG IMG_6310.JPG IMG_6301.JPG IMG_6296.JPG IMG_6299.JPG IMG_6306.jpg IMG_6302.JPG
     
  29. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Hi, RM, nice find. It's always great to find the original sale tag still there, telling you when and who bought the clock. I've never been fortunate enough to run into one with the bell programmer. The movements are quite heavy duty, and with proper maintenance will last a long time. The wind arbor bushings are the main wear points on them. Looks pretty much all original to me. The .037 on the movement is the spring thickness, and the 88 is beats per minute.
     
  30. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    Thanks for you kind comments and information.

    RM
     
  31. John Lippold

    John Lippold Registered User
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    This is my IBM Type 37 Radio Supervised Master Time Control clock. It was originally purchased by the Bonneville Power Administration to use as the master by which the 60 Hz power coming from the Bonneville Dam could be controlled. If the time on an adjacent electric clock, which was driven from the power emanating from the Bonneville power grid, did not match the time shown on this master clock the cycles per second would be adjusted to keep the electric clock time synchronized with this master clock.

    I purchased the clock from Western Smelting & Metals in Dallas, Oregon on December 22, 1971 for $35.00. It was outside in the scrap yard with standing rain water inside the case. The wood case was warping from being wet and the paint was starting to come off. The ¼ inch plate glass door was broken and the 5 MHz tube receiver was missing but the rest of the clock was complete. I had to completely disassemble the case and spend a lot of time trying to straighten the warped boards. I glued the case back together, had matching paint formulated and repainted the case. The name board, which runs under the face with the "Radio IBM Time", I left original.

    Several years later I found an original 5 MHz receiver for the clock and was able to make the clock fully functional including correcting automatically to WWV's short-wave signal. I installed a switch in the circuitry so I could disable the automatic WWV correction system and either allow automatic correction or manually trigger a correction cycle anytime. I installed the switch because I cannot receive WWV during the day and I didn't want the receiver to be on all day waiting for the WWV time signal.
    I installed the 12 hour correction feature in the master clock and connected a synchronous wired slave clock. The master is wired to drive a Studio Slave clock but I have never been able to find one.

    The serial number (424450MS) indicates the clock was made in October of 1954. This is the earliest Type 37 I have seen and the only one I know of that actually will still correct to WWV's short-wave signal. You will notice the short-wave receiver is mounted on a board above the clock chassis mounting plate. Later Type 37's had the entire clock chassis mounted in a rectangular metal box and the short-wave receiver attached to the top of the box. See reply #10 at the following link (https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?104851-IBM-model-37-master-clock&highlight=37+master). The Line, Speaker and Elect. controls are also mounted differently and there is no volume control for the speaker. When these master clocks came out in 1954 they were quite expensive with a base price of $1348.00. For comparison, the base price of a model 25 master was $260.00.

    I've attached a few photos of the master clock and a link to a two minute video showing the clock correct itself to the exact second via WWV's 5 MHz signal (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=keaSZnql15w). On a computer screen I show the Official US Time in the video so you can see the clock corrects to the correct time. The correction takes place with 10:15:40 PM shown on the master clock and 10:15:45 PM "actual time" shown on the computer screen so watch carefully because it happens very fast. If you turn the volume up you can hear the master clock and some of the sounds it makes while it is running the correction cycle. Earlier, at about 9:50 PM, I moved the seconds hand back 5 seconds so the correction could be observed in the video. When the master clock corrected the secondary at 9:59 PM, the secondary clock seconds hand was also retarded 5 seconds. The master clock turned its receiver on at 9:56 PM but since I live about 1500 miles from WWV and the short-wave signal was weak the night I made the video it took the master clock 15 minutes to complete the correction.

    John


    m2-424450MS-(37)-01-10-54.jpg m2-424450MS-(37)-02-10-54.jpg m2-424450MS-(37)-03-10-54.jpg m2-424450MS-(37)-04-10-54.jpg m2-424450MS-(37)-05-10-54.jpg m2-424450MS-(37)-06-10-54.jpg m2-424450MS-(37)-07-10-54.jpg
     
  32. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Very nice clock, John. I don't think many of these were sold in Canada, at least I haven't been fortunate enough to run into one. Great job on the rebuilding of it, considering the condition when you found it.:thumb::thumb:
    Thanks for posting it.
     
  33. Paulted

    Paulted New Member

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    20150612_084746.jpg 20150612_084724.jpg

    Hello All -I am new to the Forum
    I just found this ITR - I am looking for decals if anyone knows who supplies.
    Also trying to get some information on this machine. When I took it apart there is a date on the OAK Box near the top and it looks like 1898 . ALso the serial number is in the 33 000 region.
    There is a second huge dial that is not connected to anything - I suspect another bell should have been there - does anyone know the purpose of the second large dial

    Johannesburg
     
  34. StoveBolt

    StoveBolt Registered User

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    ITR Decals

    Denis Jahn.. 559 734-2011

    Nice Clock !!
     
  35. harold bain

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  36. JDToumanian

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    Now that is fascinating. I was wondering why there are so many chopped time recorders changing hands out there!

    Jon
     
  37. Paul Rottenberg

    Paul Rottenberg Registered User
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    IMG_0670[1].jpg IMG_0678[1].jpg IMG_0671[1].jpg IMG_0679[1].jpg IMG_0677[1].jpg

    Hi, this is a clock I just picked up. I am not sure how to date it. It has no serial number labels or tags left on movement or case. It was in use from 1922 till 1982 in local Laundromat. I was told that it was electrified in the thirties but the dial pan under the paper dial looks a lot newer than that. The punch mechanism looks nearly identical {except for material used on a few pieces} like a punch mechanism I have which is dated 1909. It does have the number 3167 stamped on top of door frame. I would like to find the correct dial for it and return it to mechanical movement. The punch mechanism works well.
     
  38. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Paul, without its original label and serial number it is difficult to date it. I have a similar clock from 1918. You will need more than a dial to convert it back to mechanical. A suitable movement will also need to be sourced, along with a pendulum.
     
  39. Paul Rottenberg

    Paul Rottenberg Registered User
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    Thanks for the date. I have a spare movement that is marked 030 on the front. I have read that it may be the spring thickness. Is this movement correct for the clock.? All I need to do is bush the rear bearings on the first gears. Did some punch mechanisms require more power? I also have a dial I could use but am not sure if it is correct. It is the style that has the bezel attached with brass rivets versus the style that was on the clock which had tabs bent over. There seems to have been a lot of different dials over the years. I would like the clock to be period correct if possible. All I need now is a pendulum and some punch cards.
     
  40. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Is the dial you have original or was it replaced when the clock was electrified? Can't tell if it is just a paper dial on top of the original dial.
    The movement should be OK if it is set up for the correct length of pendulum.
     
  41. Paul Rottenberg

    Paul Rottenberg Registered User
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    The dials I have are from other clocks, the dial that got papered over does not look that old to me. It is very shiny and cheap looking. Here are some pics of the other dials and the back and front of the papered over dial that came with the clock. now 001.jpg now 002.jpg now 003.jpg now 004.jpg
     
  42. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
    NAWCC Member Deceased

    Nov 4, 2002
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    I would go with the dial that has the ITR logo on it. I'm not sure on dating them based on how the dial attaches to the bezel. Of the 4 I have, 3 are attached with tabs. Does your movement have the parts for the wind indicators on the dial?
     
  43. Paul Rottenberg

    Paul Rottenberg Registered User
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    Dec 4, 2013
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    Thanks for the help. The movement I have does have the wind indicators. Is there any guide as to what should be lubricated on the punch mechanism? One of mine came pretty much covered in oil and the other one is pretty dry.
     
  44. tomrmaguire

    tomrmaguire Registered User

    May 9, 2016
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    Just picked up an International Time Recorder, Binghamton, NY. I have a couple of questions. It had a clock door lock which has been removed; is there somewhere I can get a replacement? The wood around the clock face is just a piece of oak plywood; same question? I can't open the door to the time punch section (locked); any advice. It keeps good time but needs a good cleaning and TLC.

    Tom ITR, Binghamton.jpg
     
  45. StoveBolt

    StoveBolt Registered User

    May 15, 2011
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    I thought when you open the door you can lift the top part of the cast iron piece out and then there is a lever on each side to unlock and fold down the mechanism door that is hinged on the bottom.
     
  46. tomrmaguire

    tomrmaguire Registered User

    May 9, 2016
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    The lever on the right (facing) clock doesn't appear to want to budge. Here's a photo of the lock.

    IMG_20160510_120329.jpg
     
  47. tomrmaguire

    tomrmaguire Registered User

    May 9, 2016
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    Ahh, actually got it open, you were right... So what is that lock for?

    Tom
     
  48. StoveBolt

    StoveBolt Registered User

    May 15, 2011
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    #98 StoveBolt, May 10, 2016
    Last edited: May 10, 2016
    The lock is probably to lock the door or mechanism, it's been a long time since I had the cast iron version, I do have 3 of the sheet metal versions of the same clock but no locks on them.

    Nice Clock.
     
  49. John Lippold

    John Lippold Registered User
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    Feb 2, 2011
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    The lock in question is for the purpose of locking the card receiver, thus preventing employees from moving the shifting lever and recording their time upon the cards in the wrong column.

    John
     
  50. John Lippold

    John Lippold Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Feb 2, 2011
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    Here is a photo of the Dial Mat which is period correct for your International Card Recorder. As you can see, it is quite unique with carved decorations in each corner. You may be able to find one but probably won't be easy. John

    Early Dial Mat.jpg
     

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