Post Your H. Endler Clocks Here

Discussion in 'General Clock Discussions' started by Dave Davidson, May 14, 2004.

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  1. #1 Dave Davidson, May 14, 2004
    Last edited by a moderator: Nov 27, 2015
    I have a tall wall clock with two weights. I recently had it repaired and the repairman said it had this on the back of, I assume, the movement:
    Endler H. and Comp
    PRODUKTIVGENOSSENSCHAFT
    der UHRMACHER von FREIBURG
    i. schl (Silesia)
    Germany
    Registered 08.10. 1877
    Manufact. of Regulator Clocks,
    MFC/WHS/RET - Clockmaker Cooperative

    I inherited the clock and though it will never be for sale, wonder about its history, pedigree and value.

    Thanks
    Dave Davidson
     
  2. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
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    Identification assistance

    How 'bout a picture of the clock. Is that possible?
     
  3. Frank Menez

    Frank Menez Registered User
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    Dave

    I have never seen that much information on the back plate of a clock. The info you have is identical to that which is in The Clock & Watch
    Trademark Index of European Origin by Karl Kochmann. This info is shown on Page 345 which includes a trademark. At this time I have not been able to find any other info on this clockmaking firm. I will keep on looking.

    PS Timepiece values are not given on the message board.

    Frank Menez
     
  4. Identification assistance

    Scottie, I have a digital camera but the software that comes with it and the resident stuff on my computer hasn't been user friendly.

    Frank, is the info from Kochman on the web? I'm very new to Horology and don't know how to do my own research yet. Heck, where do I look? I inherited German, American and French clocks. I certainly have no problem with this forum not giving values. How is the best way to go about getting values? My insurance agent recommended them. He came to my house and got uncomfortable. Several of them he figures are pretty expensive.
     
  5. Frank Menez

    Frank Menez Registered User
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    Dave

    You need to go to the NAWCC Home Page. Look for a NAWCC Chapter near you. Contact the officers and I am sure they will help you. You may want to join a chapter. They can tell you about appraisals etc. The web may contain some info about Kochmann, however you may want to purchase his book and other books on horology.

    Frank
     
  6. Identification assistance

    Thanks, Frank. I have already joined and am a member of Chapter 124. Will be attending my first clock repair class in a couple of hours; 4 days in 2 consecutive weekends. My wife is shaking her head about the specialized tools I'm buying from Timesavers.

    I have bought 4 or 5 books on clocks and clock repair. The books aren't much help. They kinda remind me of books about how to ride a horse or throw a bowling ball. They make perfect sense after I know what I'm doing. I need to take something apart before I can really relate to what the books are saying. It will take quite a bit more study before I really understand very much about a lot of the things I'm reading here and on on other clock stuff on the web. I certainly appreciate the help I'm getting here. I have had several questions that have been answered down on the basic or stupid level which I need and appreciate.

    Dave Davidson
     
  7. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
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    Guess I'm gonna hafta learn how to use this Koch manual I bought so I wouldn' hafta pester ya so much. Yep; Another deadbeat ( No doofus - not me ) One wt. regulator - got some years on it but looks viable. Yep; Vienna thing. I can read Schutz Marke. Then in center Perhaps "J" of "F" then perhaps "H" and then probably "E" or more likely just, "H E"
     
  8. eskmill

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    The mark is for H. Endler in Freiburg in Silesia. (now Poland)
     
  9. Scottie-TX

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    MAN! Howdja do it? Thanks a mill' "Eckster" . Do appreciate. I hunted in Koch, knowing what it is and couldn't find it. Thanks!
     
  10. Mike Phelan

    Mike Phelan Registered User

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    #10 Mike Phelan, Oct 3, 2004
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    Trademark logo

    Not Germany, Les? Only Freiburg I know is that near the French border, East of Colmar. Silesia used to cover quite a large part of what is now Poland and also the Baden-Wurttemburg part of Germany, formerly Saxony.
    IIRC, there is a clock museum at Freiburg.
     
  11. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
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    Last question answered first: Mike asks where's Freiburg? Germany, France, Poland. Good question.

    The answer is that there's Freiburgs all over Europe. Literally, Frieburg means in English, "Free City;" that is a community where craftsmen are free to ply their trade. They don't have to belong to a guild, association or craft union. For example, the exact opposite would be true in London and in other cities, where the guild associations controlled the crafts industries in a heavy-handed manner.

    Now, Scottie asks me where I found H. Endler's trademark, one of many not in Kochmann's index. It's in an German clockmaker's trademark reference written by E.D. Bush, Charles Terwilliger and E. J. Tyler and published in an old NAWCC Bulletin.

    Much of Kochmann's work came from his association with correspondents in the Black Forest area I believe. Silesia is or was a German "Dukedom" far removed from Baden-Wurtemberg or the Black Forest. There were several clockmakers in that "Freiburg" long before Gustav Becker established his enterprise.
     
  12. Scottie-TX

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    MAN! Great stuff, "ECK", "MIKE". Where else can ya get simultaneously an education in Horology and GEOgraphy? Thanks GOOD stuff.
     
  13. BILL KAPP

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    Scottie & Eckmill,
    Everyone should get a copy of that bulletin, whole # 187. Very useful.
    I was curious how you knew silesia was what Schl stood for. I note that they use the same abbreviation for Becker.
    Thanks,
    Happy hunting
     
  14. Adam Mroziuk

    Adam Mroziuk Registered User

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    Swiebodzice - Freiburg in Schlesien
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    http://img423.imageshack.us/img423/5958/pooenie5mq.gif

    Freiburg in Schlesien now Swiebodzice in Poland
     
  15. Scottie-TX

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    DANKE! Sehr padagogisch.
     
  16. W.R. WoodWorking

    W.R. WoodWorking Registered User

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    man Scottie we have to keep Ol' Eckmill fired up, we can learn a great deal from him. That was some good stuff.
     
  17. alliemarie

    alliemarie Guest

    Duck

    I read that you are the clock historian and wondered if you might have any information on my regulator? The back of the clock has an emblem of a crown with a cross at the center base of the crown and what could be like a ribbon trim to the left and right of the actual crown. Below that in an oval shape are the capital letters that connect each other: an H and an E. Below the H and E (within the same oval) is Co with 2 small lines under the o. Below that, looks like a pendulum but appears to have teeth on the edges and inside that is an X. Outside of the oval on the left side is the word Shutz. Outside the oval on the right side is the word Marke. Below the oval are the numbers: 100071. I would appreciate in info you may be able to share. Thank you, alliemarie
     
  18. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
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    Duck

    I'm not Duck but maybe he can amplify my comments about the H. Endler & Co. logo on your clock that you have so aply described.

    According to Kochmann in his "European Clock and Watch Trademark Index,"
    http://home.earthlink.net/~lexmd/H.EndlerLogo.jpg
     
  19. zepernick

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    Duck

    Greets Alliemarie and Les -- H. Endler & Company (HECO) was one of the firms in what was once Freiburg in Schlesien which were known for making "regulators." They were often referred to collectively and not surprisingly as "Freiburger
    regulators."

    It was also the first of eight firms named in an article about VFU/Gustav Becker in a 1904 _Deutsches Uhrmacher-Zeitung_ article which were founded, most as cooperatives, by workers from the Gustav Becker factories. H. Endler was founded in 1865.

    The firm exhibited at the 1873 Vienna World Exhibition. It's listed in the German Official Catalogue (my xeroxed copy a prize I keep under the car seat) as having had 118 workers in 1871 (Becker, in an entry right above, is said to have had 300 in 1871) and turned out 6,200 clocks that year at a total sales value of 65,200 Thalers (Gustav Becker, had 132,000 Thalers according to the Catalogue). So they were comparatively large.

    It's known that the firm went into bankruptcy in 1890 and was advertised for sale. But as H-H Schmid notes, it's not known exactly whether they were taken over or what.

    But I have found a note in an 1893 German trade journal (AJU) that the property of what was the Uhrenfabrik H. Endler & Company of Polsnitz (about 2 miles outside Freiburg) was being settled. So that seems that by then.

    A couple of sources say that H. Endler was among the firms that came together in 1899 to form VFU. But neither the 1904 DUZ article or the VFU 1899-1924 report copied in Kochmann's volume mention this.

    Might as well note, lest we not come this way again, that the 1873 German Official Catalogue has the little note "Absatz grössentheils in Deutschland" meaning that Endler's market was mainly Germany.

    Can we see some photos of the movement please?

    Regards, Duck
     
  20. MUN CHOR-WENG

    MUN CHOR-WENG Registered User

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  21. alliemarie

    alliemarie Guest

    Duck

    Eckmill, Thanks for the information! alliemarie
     
  22. alliemarie

    alliemarie Guest

    Duck

    Duck, thanks for the detailed information. At this time I don't have anyway to post pictures---I'll work on that. Thanks for your help. alliemarie
     
  23. zepernick

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    Duck

    Good stuff Mun! An elegant clock indeed. Thank you. My favorite-favorite clock of the moment is from the same Freiburger extended family, a regulator from the Regulatorfabrik Germania. With both Adam Mroziuk and Hans-Heinrich Schmid working on these Freiburg firms we can look forward to more information on them. Regards, Duck
     
  24. owen.or

    owen.or Registered User
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    German Maker?

    I can not find this mark in any of my books. Does anyone have information on the maker of this one weight movement? It appears likely to be German or Austrian.

    http://mysite.verizon.net/~davidowen1/DSCN1788vie.jpg
    David "owen.or"
     
  25. zepernick

    zepernick Deceased

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    Greetings David --

    The mark is from H. Endler & Co., one of the several so-called "Freiburger" regulator factories which shared Freiburg in Schlesien with Gustav Becker. The name comes up here not infrequently. Below is a response to an earlier query. Regards, Duck

    ------------
    Posted April 09, 2006
    H. Endler & Company (HECO) was one of the firms in what was once Freiburg in Schlesien which were known for making "regulators." They were often referred to collectively and not surprisingly as "Freiburger regulators."

    It was also the first of eight firms named in an article about VFU/Gustav Becker in a 1904 _Deutsches Uhrmacher-Zeitung_ article which were founded, most as cooperatives, by workers from the Gustav Becker factories. H. Endler was founded in 1865.

    The firm exhibited at the 1873 Vienna World Exhibition. It's listed in the German Official Catalogue (my xeroxed copy a prize I keep under the car seat) as having had 118 workers in 1871 (Becker, in an entry right above, is said to have had 300 in 1871) and turned out 6,200 clocks that year at a total sales value of 65,200 Thalers (Gustav Becker, had 132,000 Thalers according to the Catalogue). So they were comparatively large.

    It's known that the firm went into bankruptcy in 1890 and was advertised for sale. But as H-H Schmid notes, it's not known exactly whether they were taken over or what.

    But I have found a note in an 1893 German trade journal (AJU) that the property of what was the Uhrenfabrik H. Endler & Company of Polsnitz (about 2 miles outside Freiburg) was being settled. So that seems that by then.

    A couple of sources say that H. Endler was among the firms that came together in 1899 to form VFU. But neither the 1904 DUZ article or the VFU 1899-1924 report copied in Kochmann's volume mention this.

    Might as well note, lest we not come this way again, that the 1873 German Official Catalogue has the little note "Absatz grössentheils in Deutschland" meaning that Endler's market was mainly Germany.
    ---------------------------------------
     
  26. owen.or

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    Thanks Duck! David "owen.or"
     
  27. owen.or

    owen.or Registered User
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    Here is the whole clock.

    http://mysite.verizon.net/~davidowen1/DSCN1791vie.jpg

    David "owen.or"
     
  28. zepernick

    zepernick Deceased

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    David -- and it's a slenderly handsome beast at that. Regards, Duck
     
  29. Joe Jones

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    German Maker?

    Not to be confused with HECO as used by Henry Coehler Company in the mid 20th century?
     
  30. zepernick

    zepernick Deceased

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    Don't see how you'd confuse a US importer with a German manufacturer of regulators except that Heco and HeCo DoCo. There has always been some confusion -- something often seen in eBay ads -- as to who made what was "made in Germany" as American law allows the importer/purchaser to mark products with their own name as long as country-of-origin is also marked. Regards, Duck
     
  31. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    Question about Vienna regulator....is it?

    Until recently I have only collected American clocks, then this one came up at a local estate auction for $80. I figured it was worth that much just to see how it was made. It needed cleaning and a few minor repairs, but is not badly worn and runs well. I know nothing about Vienna regulators. I’m hoping that someone here can help me answer a few questions.

    I have read that most Vienna regulators were actually made in Germany, and I believe that this piece is German, so is it proper to call it a Vienna regulator if it was not actually made in Vienna, or at least in Austria?

    The movement is stamped with the maker’s mark and serial number, and the back of the dial has a number that looks like it could be a date. Does anyone know who this maker is and about when this clock was made?

    The clock has a seconds bit attached to a 30-tooth escape wheel, but the pendulum is sized for about 80 beats per minute, so the seconds bit records 60 seconds in about 45 seconds actual time. I have been told that this was typical of Vienna’s with second bits. Seems odd that a clock of reasonable quality would have a seconds bit that does not accurately record seconds, so why would they be made that way?

    Thanks for any help.

    Bob C.
     

    Attached Files:

  32. Sooth

    Sooth Registered User
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    Re: Question about Vienna regulator....is it?

    Wow. I could only DREAM of getting a beautiful double weight vienna for 80$!!!

    Let me just say that you got this for just a fraction of what it's worth. Check out other 2 weight viennas on eBay for an idea of how well you did.

    The term "Vienna Regulator" is appropriate, even though it's made in Germany. This has become a common name for this type of clock, regardless of where it was made. Some spring driven clocks like these are also occasionally called vienna regulators, even though they should technically be weight driven to be deemed "regulators".

    I'm sure I've seen that maker's mark, so someone should be able to ID it (I don't know it myself). I'm SURE I've seen it a few times.

    Your clock looks like it may be missing two bottom finials. They would fit just below the door columns/turnings underneath the base.

    Other than that, it looks like it's in fantastic shape.
     
  33. Tom Kloss

    Tom Kloss Registered User
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    Re: Question about Vienna regulator....is it?

    Bob

    I think you should run out right quick and buy a lottery ticket after a coup like that.


    Tom :cool:

    “Sometimes you really don’t know if your being rewarded or punished”
     
  34. zepernick

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    Greetings Bob and all.

    Only $80? I trust that you are cheerfully ashamed of yourself!

    The clock was made by one of the so-called Freiburger regulator factories, namely, H. Endler & Co. If you go to the "Search" button above, and type in (only!) "Endler" (without the quotation marks) in the Content section, "One of these," you'll be rewarded with a fat thread, a hawserette so to speak, concerning this interesting firm.

    The serial number isn't much help as no one as far as I know has yet matched clocks and dates and numbers, etc.

    As to the so-called seconds dial not being 60 to the minute, this was especially common to these German Vienna-style "regulators." It also had a calming effect, when assumed to be a 60s/m indicator, on patients whose pulse was being taken. Now and then one of the better G makers would state that THEIRS showed true seconds.

    The markings on the back of the dial are likely, given the years, to be repairers marks. The date was written in a common German convention "day/month year," so for the top one you have 19 December 1908.

    Would you please be kind enough to share with us your further Vienna, uh, inexpensive, hm, plunderings? :)
     
  35. Missy

    Missy Registered User
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    Re: Question about Vienna regulator....is it?

    Bob, this is just a guess, but the maker may be H. Endler & Co. of Freiburg, Silesia. There is one example of his clock on the antique price guide and it is a Vienna but a time only. Three more pictures for this clock would not come up for me which may have shown the trademark.

    That is a beautful clock and looks to be in excellent condition. Definitely a quality clock and the price :eek: .

    I am sure our "German clock experts" will be along soon to give you more information.

    Missy
     
  36. harold bain

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    Re: Question about Vienna regulator....is it?

    Bob, you would be lucky to get just the pendulums and the weights for $80.00 on ebay. Looks like a fine clock that would be the highlight of many collections. Is it an 8 day?
    Like Sooth said, you are missing a couple of finials, if there are any holes at the bottom. They should be easy to replace with suitable looking ones:thumb:
     
  37. Missy

    Missy Registered User
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    Ah ha, I see one of our "German clock experts" has appeared as I was typing my reply. Thanks Zep.

    Missy
     
  38. shutterbug

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    Wow, that's almost criminal! I stopped bidding on a similar one at $600. It went well beyond that. Great buy!
     
  39. R. Croswell

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    Re: Question about Vienna regulator....is it?

    Thanks to all who responded. This was exactly the information I was looking for!

    Yes I do feel very lucky, almost guilty, for getting this piece at such a price. My luck usually runs the other way. Several things worked out to my benefit. It was a small local auction house and the estate sale had dragged on past 12 midnight and there was only about a dozen bidders left. The Vienna was almost the last item sold and it was placed on a table next to an inexpensive modern reproduction clock, and some other not so valuable items. I heard a few people say they thought it was a modern reproduction. I assume others probably thought it would go for big dollars and just didn’t hang around to see. It was a bit disheveled looking – face partly detached from the movement and jacked up on one side – finials (except the missing pair) and other misc. parts lose in a box with the clock. I had not planned to bid, but when the auctioneer had to back down to $25 to get an opening bid, and then the hammer was about to drop at $50, I just couldn’t pass it up!

    Yes it is an 8-day clock and I see where the missing finials attach. I’ll look for some reasonable replacements, but for now, it’s still a handsome clock as it is.

    Thanks,

    Bob C.
     
    Dave T likes this.
  40. Mike Phelan

    Mike Phelan Registered User

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    Re: Question about Vienna regulator....is it?

    The word "Wow" does it no justice! Well done indeed Bob. :clap:

    The "Vienna" term is fairly universal for these fine clocks - I have also heard cheaper spring-driven lookalikes from the Black Forest so called.

    Mars Bars don't come from Mars
    Irish Stew need not come from Ireland
    French Windows don't come from France. :cool:
     
  41. jmclaugh

    jmclaugh Registered User

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    Well done Bob that is a super VR, I have seen quite a few by Endler on eBay and you really did get this one for a song. :clap:

    According to Kochmann the trademark was registered on my birthday 08/10/1877. Why the Germans commonly included a seconds hand that goes round once in 45 seconds is a bit of a mystery other than it is cheaper and most people probably wouldn't really notice, though I like Zepernick's alternative explanation.

    Out of interest does it have maintaining power?
     
  42. R. Croswell

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    Re: Question about Vienna regulator....is it?

    I don't know that this was the intended reason for the seconds hand making a lap in 45 seconds, probably not, but the way it's setup, it serves as a beat counter and with a stop watch, one might find it helpful in regulating the clock. It will be interesting to see if anyone notices it at all.

    Bob C.
     
  43. Ralph

    Ralph Registered User
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    Re: Question about Vienna regulator....is it?

    Come on now, you're not almost 130 years old?? :eek:

    Ralph
     
  44. Mike Phelan

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    Re: Question about Vienna regulator....is it?

    I shudder to think what would have happened to it if one of those people had bought it.
    I think I really know, though ... :eek::eek::eek:
     
  45. jmclaugh

    jmclaugh Registered User

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    Re: Question about Vienna regulator....is it?

    A GAF a day does wonders Ralph, can you guess what the F is?;)
     
  46. Scottie-TX

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    Re: Question about Vienna regulator....is it?

    Man!
    Missing two finials and STILL you bid eighty?
    Naw; Jes' teasin'. Ya got a helluva deal. You know it.
    As for the subsidiarby bits seconds - esthetics - there for the looks. I don't think nurses used these clocks to take patients' pulse. "Looks". That's all.
    As for the two finials, you will notice often that the finials either in some way compliment each other and in some cases (pun in ten did ) in some cases, upper and lower finials will be identical. Note how the two existing compliment the base finial - similar in shape. I'd probably get someone to either duplicate the top ones or perhaps make two of the same design only maybe ten per-cent or so larger to give them balance.
     
  47. Tony Ambruso

    Tony Ambruso Registered User

    Dec 2, 2005
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    Re: Question about Vienna regulator....is it?

    |O
     
  48. Ralph

    Ralph Registered User
    NAWCC Member Sponsor

    Jan 22, 2002
    4,832
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    Country Flag:
    Re: Question about Vienna regulator....is it?

    A GAF a day does wonders Ralph, can you guess what the F is?;)
    [/quote]

    I know it's not for Ferone..... so that leaves only one other choice.

    Cheers, ralph


     
  49. popeye

    popeye Registered User

    May 8, 2005
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    Need Help With Vienna 2 Weight/Regulator Clock?

    Bought this vienna clock. Looks like it is missing the top. Can any one ID this clock so I can find the missing part/parts? Any info on age and maker(105622)? It is 39" long and 13 1/2" wide 7 1/2" deep.
    There was no bob. How can I find the right size bob for this clock? I gather I can order one from Merritts? Also looks like bottom needs work. Wondering if spindles are missing anything and center bottom peice. I would gather I can find a pic I can see what is missing. Advice/help appreciated, thanks.




     

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  50. popeye

    popeye Registered User

    May 8, 2005
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    Re: Need Help Info On Regulator Clock?

    Here the pendulum-does this help getting the right size bob?
     

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