Post Your Gustav Becker Clocks Here

[SZZZL]

Her'e a recent Becker unusual find. It's a miniature alarm clcok at about 8" tall. Anyone ever run across these?

 

[John Hubby]

Here's a Becker bracket clock my Dad bought 40-45 years ago. The case is oak, beveled front and side glasses, Westminster chime, serial number is 2061469. The cast iron block for the chime rods is round and attached to the top of the clock. The mark on the back plate is Gustav Becker, Freiburg (illegible), around an anchor in a circle. There's another mark stamped in the back plate but DRGM is all I can read from it.

John, thanks for your inquiry and posting of the photos of your clock. Based on the serial number, it was made in 4th quarter 1908 and is Model No. 401 as illustrated in the 1912 GB catalog published by our member Victor Tang. Your clock was made only a year after GB first introduced the Westminster Chime bracket clocks to their lineup. I'm attaching a scan of the catalog illustration, your clock is "identical" to the one featured.

The illegible stamp you are seeing is actually the GB "Medaille d'Or" or Gold Medal, what you see as DRGM is actually the "D'OR" part of the stamp. There is also a pendulum length stamp P18, which gives the pendulum length in centimeters. You have a very nice and complete example of this 100+ year-old clock, I'm pleased to see it is staying in the family.

One question, is there any marking on the round rod gong block? Sometimes these have a name or the letters "DRP". Since it's not in the photos can't tell exactly what you have.

Once again, thanks for posting and let us know if you have any other questions or comments.

 

[John Hubby]

Her'e a recent Becker unusual find. It's a miniature alarm clock at about 8" tall. Anyone ever run across these?

Thanks for posting your inquiry and the photos. I have several similar clocks in my database and will be able to date yours (pre-1900) if I could read the serial number in the photo. Could you post the photos again in much larger format? These are the size of avatar pics and need to be "MUCH" larger to see any detail. Try for 800 x 640 pixels or in the order of 100KB each. Thanks in advance for your help!

 

[John Arrowood]

Thanks for the information, I will make a copy and put it in the clock for future owners to have. My nephews and niece don't have much interest in clocks so it will probably pass on to someone else after I'm gone. I did photograph the gong base, but the picture was too blurry when I looked at it so I didn't bother posting. It does have DRP on the end, and looks like the letters were painted yellow or gold sometime in the past. There is a brass screw in the end of the base and it's attached with bolts on the other end.

 

[SZZZL]

Hi John,

Hope these pictures are better

Bill

 

[John Hubby]

Hi John,

Hope these pictures are better

Bill

Bill, thanks much for posting, definitely what was needed! The first thing I noticed is the GB Braunau circular logo, indicating the movement was finished if not made in the Braunau, Bohemia factory. Notice the "Braunau i Boehm" stamped at the bottom of the GB anchor circle, with "Freib i Schl." inside that under the anchor. This is definitely the Braunau logo found on examples representing over 920,000 clocks made/finished in Braunau.

This is only the second alarm clock I've documented with the Braunau logo, virtually all the others with this movement are stamped with a Freiburg GB logo. Both of the two so far found (includes yours) would have been made about 3rd quarter 1909 if the serial number was assigned and stamped in Braunau. However, there may be another story as I will describe below.

Story 1:

The Freiburg clocks using this identical movement and stamped with serial numbers were made beginning around 1878 and continued in relatively large numbers (actually, thousands of them) to the end of 1889, then no more recorded after that (so far). It could be that alarm clock production after 1889 was with only a GB logo and no serial number, see Story 2. The lowest serial number documented is 161127 and the highest 736895. Curiously enough, the serial numbers on the two "Braunau" clocks being 501226 and 507187 happen to fall in 1885 if they had been made in Freiburg, before the Braunau factory was started three years later in early 1888. Being stamped with the Braunau logo, but with serial numbers that would indicate manufacture there nearly 20 years after their production ceased in Freiburg, I can't help but wonder if in fact these were "new old stock" from Freiburg that had been stamped with a serial number but not the logo, and then finished in Braunau at the time that factory was getting started in 1888 or perhaps in 1889 when production of serial numbered movements was winding down in Freiburg. Possible? Sure, there were many accommodations made of this nature in the industry.

Story 2:

Alarm clocks are shown in the GB 1912 catalog published by our member Victor Tang. The illustrations include models with identical case, dial, and other features as the huge majority of these made in Freiburg in the 1878-1889 period noted above. However, the catalog notes show these were available either with lever escapement or pendulum escapement; unfortunately the actual movements are not shown for either one but I have seen these stamped with Freiburg logos (GB Anchor only) and no serial number but otherwise identical to the late 1880's version. So . . now we have un-numbered movements available in about the same time frame as your clock would be had it been finished in Braunau with a then-current (1909) Braunau serial number. We also know that Braunau "did" make or finish Amerikaner design "SILESIA" grade movements and stamp them with the Braunau logo and serial number from around 1911 until at least 1925. This being the case, with unmarked movements made in Freiburg and a known practice of stamping both logo and serial number in Braunau on "all" their clocks, it then becomes quite possible that in 1909 Braunau took some unfinished movements from Freiburg, stamped them with their logos and current serial number, and completed the clocks there.

There's no way to know for certain if these are Braunau "originals" or whether the movements were made in Freiburg and then finished in Braunau, or in one of the above scenarios. That would require some definitive information such as a presentation date or a repair date inscribed on the clock/movement.

What we do know is that except for these two examples, so far the only other types of clocks documented to have been made or finished in Braunau are wall clocks and hall clocks. No mantel clocks, table clocks, bracket clocks, or any other type of small clocks of any description have yet been documented with the Braunau logo, and certainly no compelling evidence that any alarm clock movements were ever made in Braunau. That lead me to initially favor Story 1.

One point I overlooked in my original post that is evident from late Braunau examples and also from some Freiburg examples, is that when the movements were being made the logos were stamped on the plates early in the manufacturing process, and such details as the pendulum length (e.g. P27) and the serial number were stamped later. In particular, the serial numbers were very evidently the last thing stamped as the movement was being finished and in the instance of Braunau clocks that clearly was done by hand and not by machine as appears to be the case for many if not most Freiburg clocks (these alarm clocks excepted). This would lead to a conclusion that Story 2 is the "right" one.

Long story short:

• Your clock was finished in Braunau based on the logo stamp.
• Your clock movement could have been made in 1885 and then finished in Braunau around 1888 or 1889, or,
• The movement could have been made in Freiburg around 1909, shipped to Braunau and finished there (considered more likely).
• In either case I believe the movement was made in Freiburg and the case was likely made by a third party and fitted in Braunau.

 

[kristof]

Dear Collectors.
This is main new clock for main collection Gustav Becker .
The clock is from 8/1934.
I will appreciated yours opinion on this clock.
Regards
Kristof

 

[John Hubby]

Kristof, thanks for posting the photos and your inquiry about your GB clock. You have a very attractive table model clock with typical Junghans style hands and case that were made and sold after the Freiburg factory was closed.

One thing unusual about the clock is that it has a GB design movement instead of the "usual" Junghans designs that are normally found after 1932. In checking my database, I found several others completed in 1933 and 1934 that were fitted with the GB design movement. In a complete review of my data it also appears that 1934 was the last year these robust movements have been found, the last one in my data dated November 1934 about two years after the Freiburg factory closed.

I had previously concluded that production of the GB design movements was discontinued when Freiburg was closed, and that in fact may have been the case. It is quite possible there could have been a number of movements that had been completed in Freiburg but not placed in complete clocks, that were transferred to Schramberg after the factory closing and placed in Junghans design cases. I'm almost certain these were made in Freiburg since they are stamped with what I call the "fancy" GB anchor logo that was used in Freiburg for many years going back to at least 1908 on the Amerkaner style movements. Junghans movements have only been found with a much smaller and simpler GB anchor logo.

For now, the conclusion would be "Freiburg movement, Schramberg case" for your clock. We might be able to identify the case design when our member Victor Tang has the time to publish some Junghans/Becker catalogs from the 1930's.

I do have some questions. I see this is a "bim-bam" striking movement. Does it strike only hour and half-hour, or does it strike the quarters as well? Also, do you know if it has rack strike or countwheel strike? The answers to these will help with documentation of this type of movement.

 

[kristof]

Kristof, thanks for posting the photos and your inquiry about your GB clock. You have a very attractive table model clock with typical Junghans style hands and case that were made and sold after the Freiburg factory was closed.

One thing unusual about the clock is that it has a GB design movement instead of the "usual" Junghans designs that are normally found after 1932. In checking my database, I found several others completed in 1933 and 1934 that were fitted with the GB design movement. In a complete review of my data it also appears that 1934 was the last year these robust movements have been found, the last one in my data dated November 1934 about two years after the Freiburg factory closed.

I had previously concluded that production of the GB design movements was discontinued when Freiburg was closed, and that in fact may have been the case. It is quite possible there could have been a number of movements that had been completed in Freiburg but not placed in complete clocks, that were transferred to Schramberg after the factory closing and placed in Junghans design cases. I'm almost certain these were made in Freiburg since they are stamped with what I call the "fancy" GB anchor logo that was used in Freiburg for many years going back to at least 1908 on the Amerkaner style movements. Junghans movements have only been found with a much smaller and simpler GB anchor logo.

For now, the conclusion would be "Freiburg movement, Schramberg case" for your clock. We might be able to identify the case design when our member Victor Tang has the time to publish some Junghans/Becker catalogs from the 1930's.

I do have some questions. I see this is a "bim-bam" striking movement. Does it strike only hour and half-hour, or does it strike the quarters as well? Also, do you know if it has rack strike or countwheel strike? The answers to these will help with documentation of this type of movement.

Thanks John very much for your information.
I perches this clock in Europe and I wait for posting. Soon I will received I will
replay to your questions.

 

[Adam Mroziuk]

I recommend to any collector of watches and clocks Gustav Becker



Exhibition "The History of Clocks Gustav Becker from Branch Broumov" in Broumov (Braunau) in Museum of land Broumov Czech Republic.
Open until the end of October 2011.

More photos from exhibition in my gallery:
www.picasaweb.google.com/amroziuk

Best regards
Adam Mroziuk

 

[John Hubby]

Adam, thank you so very much for posting your message and link to your photo albums. I would very much like to be able to visit this exhibition, unfortunately that won't be possible. However, the photos you have taken are invaluable to tell the story of the Braunau factory and its operation.

I had received other information from Zep regarding the operation of the Braunau factory into the 1930's, which I did not know previously. I notice one photo in your album dated 1937 showing clock manufacturing there under Junghans but I presume with GB labels.

One question this brings up is to know exactly when the Freiburg factory stopped operation making GB logo clocks; all the information I have at this time indicates late (November?) 1932 but it would be really helpful to find more accurate information.

I now need to study the photos in your album, to learn more about the Braunau factory. I will post questions after doing that, hopefully they can be answered from the documents you have assembled.

 

[tarant]

In addition.
Catalogues from 1937, first notations in Junghans documents (provozni kniha -> transportation book ??) made after the II WW, in 1945, stamps from 1945 and 1946, Becker's factory on last saturday with KMZiZ members...
There was no clear information on this exhibition, when Becker "disappeared" from Broumov, but in 1937 was still present...
Link to the album with hi-res photos:
http://www.fotosik.pl/u/tarant2/album/975351
History teaches us..humility.

 

[zepernick]

We actually do know that Gustav Becker as part of Junghans was still in Braunau in 1940 (the clipping below from the 1940 DUZ).

And, that after the name change, the Junghans factories were still there at the end of the War.

Zepernick

 

[tarant]

On our meeting in Srebrna Góra (Silberberg) we had three extraordinary guests from Freiburg (No wonder - Reise weckeruhr...). I've never seen before GB clocks with so small SN. And with Medaille d'Or...
Unlucky "13XXX" has a special flaw...
Photos made by Ulan.

 

[John Hubby]

On our meeting in Srebrna Góra (Silberberg) we had three extraordinary guests from Freiburg (No wonder - Reise weckeruhr...). I've never seen before GB clocks with so small SN. And with Medaille d'Or...
Unlucky "13XXX" has a special flaw...
Photos made by Ulan.

Piotr, thanks much for posting the trio of weckeruhr. I did notice that whoever stamped the logos on serial 13888 must have had a bad hangover, being they are upside down . .

With regard to the two clocks with very low serial numbers, these could not have been made before October 1875 when the Medaille d'Or was awarded, so the serial numbers are "out of order" compared to other GB clocks made at that time, all with serial numbers above 104,000. I have read (I think in a DUZ article) that GB started their alarm clock business by importing movements and complete clocks from France and stamping them with the GB logo for sale. This would have been in 1877 if I recall the article details correctly. I note the cases on these clocks are identical to some French alarm clocks that I have seen, with identical movements stamped by Japy Freres. Also, the pendulum design and anchor bridge are both of the French design identical to Japy Freres. An explanation of the very low serial numbers could be that they were already stamped on the movements at the time of purchase, as they are in a smaller and different font than the typical numbers stamped on GB clocks such as the one with number 171687.

The "third" clock with serial number 171687 I believe was made by Becker, and based on the serial number about second quarter 1878. The case is a copy of the one with serial number 12353, but there are two important differences: First is the pendulum and anchor bridge design which are identical to both earlier and all later GB alarms with this movement. Second is the GB logo on the dial indicating it was made in Germany whereas the other two probably in France if it is correct they were imported.

Until now, the lowest serial number GB alarm clock I have recorded that has all the GB characteristics is 161127 made at the beginning of 1878. It has a typical GB pendulum, dial, and scalloped drum case such as the one I've attached a photo (not the same clock but identical construction).

Conclusions (my considered opinion):
1) The two low serial number clocks are French imports stamped with GB logos. These are the first examples I have seen and documented, but all the indications are they must have been among the first "GB" alarm clocks. The serial numbers are likely those stamped by the French maker and not GB.
2) The higher serial number clock was made by GB and is also one of the earliest alarms, with the case design being a copy of the earlier French imports.

 

[tarant]

About "French connection" with GB's weckeruhren Kochmann wrote many years ago. On page 90 of his book there are Murel - Paris alarm clock and one of the first GB's with unclean, dark, but low SN, consisting of four or five numbers. The escapement bridge and pendulum are simillar to this youngest I showed.

Owner of presented above alarm clocks has a different theory. GB started his mass production from these cheap clocks in 1860's. Medaille d'Or in form like on the signature was never awarded to Gustav Becker. It was a kind of advertisement only. In a French clock's style. And from alarm clocks this medal was moved onto weight driven movements many years later, in 1875.
And another interesting thing. In the middle of the cross you may see on early signatures a Prussian eagle. On later - something like blurred flower only.

 

[John Hubby]

Piotr, thanks for your followup. Regarding the clock owner's story about start of mass production by GB in the 1860's, the actual production numbers do not support this happening as there was only relatively small annual increases in production until the 1870's and in particular from the period 1875 to 1880. My data show production in 1860 to be just under 1,200 clocks, increasing to 6,000 in 1870 or less than 20% per year increase. By 1875 the production was nearly 20,000 and by 1880 more than doubled to over 41,000.

I am away from home at present with no access to my research files, but I recall the "Medaille d'Or" was specifically awarded at an exposition (Vienna?) about September or October 1875. I seriously doubt that this stamp appeared on any GB clock made prior to that date however am open to proof such as a contemporary trade magazine article, advertisement, or the like.

Also, I've made a quick check of my file of photos of the Medaille d'Or, and do find there were variations in the design that transpired over the time of its use from 1875 to the end of 1925. At this writing I have identified four distinct variations and possibly a fifth, that could not be the result of worn dies or mis-stampings. However, there were also "many" that show the effects of die breakage and wear, how heavily the die was stamped or whether it was mis-aligned. I have not found anything yet that looks like a Prussian eagle in the center, if you have a clear photo showing that feature with a specific clock serial number that would be very welcome.

I plan to follow up on the Medaille d'Or question, to see what concrete information can be developed as well as to document the variants of the design. I'll post here after I've had more time to search my files for examples.

 

[tarant]

Piotr, thanks for your followup. Regarding the clock owner's story about start of mass production by GB in the 1860's, the actual production numbers do not support this happening as there was only relatively small annual increases in production until the 1870's and in particular from the period 1875 to 1880. My data show production in 1860 to be just under 1,200 clocks, increasing to 6,000 in 1870 or less than 20% per year increase. By 1875 the production was nearly 20,000 and by 1880 more than doubled to over 41,000.

Mass production was a kind of inaccuracy, maybe main production will be more adequate for the alarm clocks production in 1860'

I am away from home at present with no access to my research files, but I recall the "Medaille d'Or" was specifically awarded at an exposition (Vienna?) about September or October 1875. I seriously doubt that this stamp appeared on any GB clock made prior to that date however am open to proof such as a contemporary trade magazine article, advertisement, or the like.

Gustav Becker was decorated with the Königlicher Preußischer Kronenorden IV Klasse by the Emperor Wilhelm I in autumn 1875*. Ceremony took place in Furstenberg Castle, near Freiburg. Weight driven movements without medal logo were produced still in 1877.
*(I couldn't find Gustav Becker on lists of awarded...this not confimed info I found on our KMZiZ foum.)

Another story says about Golden Medal granted on Silesian Trade Exhibition in 1852....

Also, I've made a quick check of my file of photos of the Medaille d'Or, and do find there were variations in the design that transpired over the time of its use from 1875 to the end of 1925. At this writing I have identified four distinct variations and possibly a fifth, that could not be the result of worn dies or mis-stampings. However, there were also "many" that show the effects of die breakage and wear, how heavily the die was stamped or whether it was mis-aligned. I have not found anything yet that looks like a Prussian eagle in the center, if you have a clear photo showing that feature with a specific clock serial number that would be very welcome.

I plan to follow up on the Medaille d'Or question, to see what concrete information can be developed as well as to document the variants of the design. I'll post here after I've had more time to search my files for examples.

I've heard about this eagle two weeks ago first time. And I've seen them, using magnyfying glass on two "low number" alarm clocks. Eagles were very sharp, with no doubt. Maybe Ulan has photos in better resolution. I attached another 5 photos found quickly. 2 and 3rd from 3xxxxx, 4 et 5th from 4xxxxx mvt. They are not of the best quality, but the shape of the eagle is still visible. On the last - late "braunauer". Eagle was transformed into something like...a thistle flower ?

 

[John Hubby]

Piotr, thanks again for the detailed photos. It does look like there may be an eagle in the center of the early Medaille d'Or. I will take another look at my files to see if I have something similar. It would really be nice if we could have a very good detailed photo of one that would show it very clearly.

Originally posted by Tarant
Another story says about Golden Medal granted on Silesian Trade Exhibition in 1852....

This story has been used by some to allude that this medal was the Medaille d'Or, however there is a photo of Gustav Becker wearing the gold medal presented in 1852 and it bears no resemblance to the Medaille d'Or design.

I notice that I have none of these clocks recorded in my files. It would be appreciated if you could post photos of the complete clocks for the record so I can document the type and style as well as the serial number and logo. Does the Braunau clock have "Made in Tschechoslovakia" stamped?

 

[tarant]

139XXX - I have this photo only.
366945 - in a broken collumns, or rocket case (net auction)
431757 - next photo (net auction)
I can't find another photos of this Braunauer on ma hard disk...they are somwhere...

 

[Rislaw]

I'm new here an believe i have a GB. I'm trying to get any info on it. attached are some photos

 

[soaringjoy]

Welcome to the board, Rislaw.

Yes, your clock seems to be a Gustav Becker.

We do need to see the whole clock and especially the rear side
of the movement (with marks and serial number) to get a dateline
or to identify the clock model.
Maybe you can increase the size of pictures a bit, too.

Jurgen

 

[Greasedsilver]

I would really like to know the name of my neighbor's Becker clock, if it has one. I understand it was made between 1872 and 1875 and using both fingers and toes estimated it's origin closer to May-August of 1874 but...

Here are a couple of shots to help realize the date and model of my friends Becker... if possible.

 

[soaringjoy]

Welcome to the NAWCC message board, greasedsilver.

The clock you show us is a spring driven "Vienna" style regulator
and was made in the Braunau (Bohemia) branch of Gustav Becker,
now a part of the Czech Republik.
The Braunau serial numbers differ from the regular Freiburg Silesia
lines, but I'm sure that will be worked out here.

Jurgen

 

[tarant]

According to John Hubby's table this clock was made about 1891.

PS -> John, have you received my PM from 10.04.2011?

 

[John Hubby]

I would really like to know the name of my neighbor's Becker clock, if it has one. I understand it was made between 1872 and 1875 and using both fingers and toes estimated it's origin closer to May-August of 1874 but...

Here are a couple of shots to help realize the date and model of my friends Becker... if possible.

Firstly, welcome to the NAWCC Message Board and thanks for posting your inquiry and the photos. As already noted, this clock was made at the Gustav Becker Braunau, Bohemia factory which had a completely different set of serial numbers with no correlation to those used by the Freiburg, Silesia factory that are commonly found on the Internet. Using the Freiburg numbers "would" show manufacturing dates close to those you mention had the clock been made in Freiburg but those aren't applicable to the clock.

Based on the serial number, this clock was actually made about third quarter 1892 using the most recent updates of my Braunau database. Serial numbers at Braunau started in early 1888 when the factory was inaugurated at a very low number, less than 1000, and continued to about 922,000 when the business was taken over by Gebrüder Junghans in late 1925/early 1926. At that time the serial number series was changed starting over again, this time with numbers below 200.

Regarding the clock name, there is no catalog available for this time period that might show a name or model number. The case design is commonly referred to as a Vienna Regulator Altdeutsche Style. For info I would be quite certain that the headpiece is a replacement, the originals were rather elaborate and many times had an eagle or horse as decoration.

It would be appreciated if you could post photos of the movement mount and gong in the back of the clock case, also of the complete back of the movement so we can see if there is anything unusual to be documented. Thanks in advance if you can provide the photos.

 

[CharlieClock]

Hello all you Gustavers! Greetings from London England. What an amazing site this is and what friendly people you all are.
I have to admit that I had never heard of Gustav Becker until recently; even though I have several clocks (non Beckers!) in my house and I qualify as a 'collector'! (Huh! Some collector!)
I hope you will be as amazed as me about my recent acquisition. Sorry for what will be a long post but I have put the most important information at the beginning so you won't need to read it all if you don't want to.
I purchased this clock at a utility auction and was lucky enough to be the winning bidder – it was about to be closed for no interest at its very low reserve price – so I nipped in before the hammer fell and bought it very cheaply. I know we are not allowed to discuss prices etc, so I won't!
The clock serial number is 1869782 with the Frieburg schl GB motif on the left and the Medaille D'or motif on the right. There are no other markings that I can see.
I hope John Hubby (Hello John!) confirms that its manufacture year is 1905 rather than 1923 depending on which set of dating tables you use. I would appreciate any more information on this clock please John. (And what a fount of knowledge you are - Thank You.)
(The heavy Edwardian-like wood case suggests later Arts and Crafts movement rather than the Art-Deco end -so more 1905 than later. The pendulum has a four-petal motif in the middle which could have been lifted from a William Morris wallpaper catalogue.)
I have yet to see any GB clock like it either on here, the Museum or elsewhere on the internet; having only seen four in a long search – three of them on here. The open pendulum chamber, the ornate pendulum and the ornate weights make for a very eccentric looking clock and was the reason I set out to bid for it having seen it on the auction viewing day. I only discovered its illustrious manufacturer having got it home.

Damage Report

• The base pedestal collapsed at the auction room as soon as I moved it! A great chunk of mahogany fell away from the base meaning it would not stand. I repaired this immediately.

• The clock went into self-destruct mode when it was time to chime – sorry strike – the hour. This explained the large chunk of Blue-Tac stuck on the ring coil to prevent the strike sounding. This was because the expanding centrifugal governor had been clumsily soldered to prevent it regulating the speed (see photo of the governor). The careful removal of the solder revealed why this had been done – the governor had become detached from its spindle. A re-crimping of the centre ring to remake it to the spindle had the governor functioning properly again. Poor clock! – From the state and age of the Blue-Tac it had obviously been silenced for many years.

• The ornate pendulums have obviously been dropped several times damaging the external weight holders. Although you have to look closely to see it – I would like to get them reshaped – any ideas please?

• The top of the clock was covered in bird's guano – from a very incontinent bird! I have no idea why this was present but it was a quite unpleasant removal process.

• One (of two) of the movement access windows had a glazing bar missing, now repaired. I am very pleased with this repair using my long unused router! I have enclosed a picture of my handiwork pre-stain for your evaluation! (Be gentle!)

• The ornamental 'cornice' piece was in three separate parts long held together with tape - an extremely aged and brittle tape which was very hard to remove – and very keen to remove any layer of veneer to which it was stuck. Slow and patient removal with a wood chisel ensured the veneer stayed put. I rebuilt the ornamental frame and secured it with just three small screws to keep unauthentic modifications to a minimum.

I have found the strike block in the form of a church a little sinister - the block is hidden for most of its life. Was the designer religious, and happy in the possible knowledge that the striking of the hour would be to the glory of his god?
The chain wheels are very clever - In my limited experience I have never seen these before. The ratchet device obviates the need for a second weight bearing chain as in unchained weights.
So what do I have here? A run-of-the mill mass production clock or a very rare masterpiece? Whatever it is I think it's a very eccentric and attractive piece of clock furniture which is a perfect addition to my Edwardian home! I hope you like it!
Regards Charlie.

 

[John Hubby]

Charlie, first of all welcome to the NAWCC Message Board and thanks for posting your inquiry and the excellent photos of your clock.

First things first, as you had surmised and based on the serial number and logos, your clock was made about mid-second half 1905 at the GB Freiburg, Silesia factory. Kochmann's dating table for Freiburg clocks was "OK" up to 1900 but after that it was completely off-base. He had only four examples in his data for the period 1900-1926, and unfortunately the information included with a couple of those clocks was related only to when they were sold and not when they were made. My data includes over 1000 clocks made after 1900 until 1940 and is supported by patent information, inscriptions, contemporary advertisements, dated inscriptions, etc.

The case style is an "open well" hall clock popular around the turn of the 19th-20th centuries and one of several such designs offered by Gustav Becker. I think there were a couple of these in this thread but the photos are now missing, in any event not too many have survived. I would classify it more of the Altdeutsche style or even Jugenstihl than art nouveau that was also popular at that time, I believe that the headpiece may not be original and that would skew the opinions on style toward art nouveau. However, it certainly isn't Arts & Crafts which started a few years later. I found a very similar model illustrated in the GB 1912 catalog published by our member Victor Tang, that I have scanned and posted below for info.

You did a good job on the strike train fly, why in the world someone would solder that the way it was in your "before" photo is a complete mystery. Regarding rarity, as I mention above they aren't common but not "rare". It also certainly isn't run-of-the-mill. Have a look at the catalog illustration, I think the original headpiece might have been very similar to that one.

EDIT: I've added scans of the Universal Gong and a dial/weight/pendulum combination from the same 1912 catalog. Note that the gong is identical to the one in your clock, and from what I can see on expanding the dial scan it is virtually the same as yours with some difference in the center engraving but all else identical. The Weights and Pendlum are different but that isn't at all unusual. GB continued to use identical designs for these parts for rather long periods of time but also had very much a "mix and match" approach to marketing the clocks.

 

[zepernick]

I have found the strike block in the form of a church a little sinister - the block is hidden for most of its life. Was the designer religious, and happy in the possible knowledge that the striking of the hour would be to the glory of his god?

Greetings Charlie,

That gong block is actually one of the more interesting features. There was a (German) saying in the trade, "a good gong sells the clock." Customers might not be able to judge the quality of a movement. But they were sensitive to the sound of a clock's gong.

In 1903 Gustav Becker came out with a gong (type) they christened Domgong (also Dom-Gong), or "cathedral gong." I'll attach two trade ads from the time. It had the full, rich sound that...well, I can't keep a straight face even writing this. Let's just say that the gong's name and form had more to do with sales than saintly aspirations.

This gong became a best seller, and other firms came out with names for gongs that might be confused with Becker's, e.g. Kienzle's Cathedral-Gong or Mauthe's Klosterglockengong. "Universal" was another and earlier Becker trade name. But that form on yours is of the Domgong dominion.

By the way, even more so. The hammers the she and he are wielding (in the ads) appear to be of the Schreinerhammer type. And I am going to ask if it is appropriate to be smacking bells with carpenters' hammers -- "and we don't care who you claim you are young lady and who said you could ring our bells in any case?" -- as someone will probably know.

Zepernick

 

[CharlieClock]

Hello John! Many thanks for yr expeditious response:

Thank you for the information confirming the manufacturing date and the information about the limitations of Kochmann's tables. So 1905 then!

• I am disappointed about the headpiece not being original – and I respect your judgement. However the slightly different colour is due to having to use fine steel wool to remove vestigial traces of the tape adhesive and to not having had its beeswax treatment like the rest of the clock – so it is not refracting the dark rich tones.

• Could it have been a 'transition' piece? - For example being manufactured between the Altdeutsche period and the Jugenstihl period? The picture you attached was from a 1912 catalogue which seems to undermine this theory though! I would expect the more elaborate headpiece to have appeared in an earlier catalogue to the date of 1905 of my clock not later!

• Do the engraved motifs - the circle motif and the vertical striations - match any of Gustav Becker's other longcase clocks? I remember in an earlier post you said that customers could 'mix and match' the styles according to taste! I have attached a close-up of the headpiece for a better view. The vertical striations match the vertical grooves that appear several times in the rest of the clock but the circle motif doesn't!

• If the original headpiece was lost or destroyed then the replacement was arguably remarkably appropriate in size and style – a very lucky find indeed!

• If it is not original do you think it would be possible to obtain a close-up picture of an original headpiece? I accept it would be stretching by woodworking skills to the limits but I am up for the challenge!

• I would be very interested in your further considerations.

• I think I can answer the mystery as to why the strike train fly (thank you for the correct term!) was soldered. The solder was meant to attach the fly to its spindle – and succeeded – but unfortunately it also hit the expanding mechanism. I believe the wielder of the soldering iron was ignorant of how it worked and so left it in this condition. Forever bound in solder until released by me!

And Thank You Zepernick too!

• ...for your interesting information about the gong blocks! Very amusing about 'smacking bells with carpenter's hammers...”! And the 'temerity' of the young lady ringing someone else's bells!

• Thank you also for posting the sales leaflets - such amazing graphics, almost like Greek classical mythology! And as you say – nothing to do with the quality and workmanship of the clocks!

• They are evocative of the sales leaflet for an old portable 78 record player I own (weighs a ton!). You could buy it for 10 shillings in black cloth or 12 shillings and sixpence in mock crocodile skin! Nothing to do with the quality of the sound reproduction!

Regards - and thanks again to both
Charlie

 

[soaringjoy]

Charlie,

I woldn't worry too much about the headpiece of your clock,
chances are good, that it is an original, perhaps.
(At least a "definative maybe")
The style of your clock is "intermediate", between Gründerzeit
(Alt Deutsch) and Jugendstil (Art Nouveau). Usually it appeared
around 1905 - 1914.
There is no definate rule to the styles, since cabinet makers mostly
were some time behind the actual style periods and these were also
used parallel to another. Please note though, that the German terms
concerning styles are somewhat different than those of the English
speaking countries and there has been some confusion on the subject
in the past.
The 1909 Gustav Becker catalogue shows several of these "plain"
headpieces, although your clock is not listed there.
Then again, we might consider, that not all clocks were always
shown in all catalogues, etc., etc.

To sum it up, clock case styles can be an additional clue to dating,
but it's not very reliable on it's own.
I would, in any case, stick to the serial number.


Jurgen

 

[John Hubby]

Charlie, thanks for the additional photos. Let's see what comes from your additional quesions about the headpiece:

* It would be great if we had a catalog from the earlier years to confirm (or not) the originality of all these clocks. The main thing about yours is that the style and shape don't quite "fit" the rest of the case . . too small, not of similar angular proportions, etc. It is a pleasing design and doesn't detract from the clock so from that viewpoint there is no reason to remove it unless you could find or make one that would be more similar to the rest of the case.

* Transition. Not really, since there was significant overlap between Altdeutsche, Jugenstihl, Art Nouveau, and Arts & Crafts styles. The 1909 and 1912 catalogs we do have include all four of these styles in some types of clocks. Not only Becker but other makers seem to have made clocks appealing to all of these schools without any clear transitions. Altdeutsche designs are seen from the 4th quarter 1800's to the beginning of WWI, Art Nouveau from the early 1890's also to WWI, Jugenstihl from about 1900 on to after WWI, and Arts & Crafts from about 1907 to WWI.

* The vertical striations are found in several designs of hall clocks and wall clocks, fitting a little more in the Jugenstihl style and right on to well after WWI in wall clocks. In fact, your head piece would be more fitting to one of the wall "box" clocks made after WWI, or one of the Arts & Crafts designs seen before the war.

* I've looked through my photo file and haven't found an original hall clock design that would be suitable, those that I do have are Arts & Crafts, Art Nouveau, and Art Deco. Perhaps someone seeing this could have a suitable example and could post that for us.

On other aspects, I've posted a couple more scans on my earlier post showing the Universal Gong and a dial, weight, and pendulum illustration from the same 1912 catalog. The Universal Gong is identical to yours, and the dial in the other illustration appears identical to yours except the center design is not quite the same. It was not at all unusual for GB to use the same designs over quite a number of years.

 

[zepernick]

Would underline Jürgen's point (above) that the terms for German art and decorative styles and periods are often not the same as the Anglo-American ones, whether applied then or now.

Nor for that matter do the "same" terms always refer to the same influences or the same times. That "arts and crafts" is one in particular. And simply adding e.g. "what we call arts and crafts..." simply brings up that old Lone Ranger and Tonto joke.

Nor is it (tsk-tsk etc.) as if this hasn't been discussed in the English-language horolit, for it is a familiar problem.

The article "Art for Crafts' Sake: Some German Clock Designs 1851-1876" in the June 2008 NAWCC Bulletin for example summarized the relevant German background and differences starting with the somewhat frosty "Whose Arts and Crafts are These?" section on page 281, and continuing to page 284.

As with all past and present Bulletin articles, it's conveniently available to members on line.

Zepernick

 

[soaringjoy]

Yes, that may have been the general idea for the G.B.
trademarks, wheras the "anchor" was often associated
with clocks in German, because the word "Anker" means
both "ship's anchor" and "pallets".
Thank you for posting, Adam.
Jurgen

 

[Adam Mroziuk]

Ceremony took place in Furstenberg Castle, near Freiburg.

In this sentence should be Fürstenstein Castle not Furstenberg.

And another interesting thing. In the middle of the cross you may see on early signatures a Prussian eagle. On later - something like blurred flower only.

Plik utworzony 28 czerwca 2009, 13:31:56 ............

Unfortunately post can not be edited after one hour.
Plik utworzony 2 sierpnia 2009, 09:45:40

SN:196386

Flowers between words "Medaille D'or" also has evolved.
Regards
Adam

 

[tarant]

In addition to my post about GB's travel clocks:
https://mb.nawcc.org/showpost.php?p=590954&postcount=911
I'd like to apologize the owner of this unique collection, our KMZiZ club colleague, Wuem. I posted these clocks and some informations about them without his permission. Forgive me, Wojtek. I was so excited... and I forget about good manners.

 

[Oled]

Hello Colleagues!

Recently I was lucky to purchase an interesting GB weight-driven movement that, I suppose, belonged to a hall clock. What is most interesting is that it's not chain-driven as usual, and it has a seconds sub-dial on the dial.

The dial size is approx 27 cm, pendulum crutch is quite long. According to anchor wheel, this is a seconds-beat movement. It is said "Made in Chechoslovakia" and serial number 853078 on the back.

My questions are: what clock it was initially? What was an original case looked like and what could be used as a replacement numbers for the dial? Most of the original letters were lost (originally they were just glued to the dial sheet). What approximate weights this movement should take?

Many thanks in advance!
BR,
Oleg

 

[Mlot Thora]

John
Keep yourself as a real man.

 

[Scottie-TX]

OLEG, I don't see a GB logo on movement plate. Maybe I overlooked it but regardless, I believe this movement may have been in an early 1900s Vienna style wall clock. It may be seconds beat but escape wheel tooth count alone would not assure that. Other wheel and pinion counts would be necessary. This will require apx. 3lb. weights.

 

[Oled]

Hi Scottie!

The GB logo exists there, but it's somehow disappeared from the photo =))) The movement itself is much bigger then the standard vienna movement, it's size is comparable to normal hall clock movement. Thanks for the weight suggestion, I hope in the near days I'll try to run it using pendulum and weights from my hall clock.

BR,
Oleg

 

[Scottie-TX]

Just a note on MLOT THORA's reply:

Keep yourself as a real man.

We believe this may loosely translate to,
"You da man, John!"

 

[John Hubby]

Oleg, thanks for posting. This is the first such movement I have documented for a Braunau clock, however not "out of place" considering what we believe was manufactured at that location.

Hello Colleagues! Recently I was lucky to purchase an interesting GB weight-driven movement that, I suppose, belonged to a hall clock. What is most interesting is that it's not chain-driven as usual, and it has a seconds sub-dial on the dial.

This would definitely be for a hall clock, being the pendulum size stamped on the movement is P115, confirming your observation it is a seconds-beat clock.

The dial size is approx 27 cm, pendulum crutch is quite long. According to anchor wheel, this is a seconds-beat movement. It is said "Made in Chechoslovakia" and serial number 853078 on the back.

The dial size is another confirmation of this being a movement for a hall clock. Although the GB circular logo is barely visible I am certain it is for the Braunau factory. Being from Braunau, the serial number indicates it was made at the end of 1920. The "Made in Tschechoslovakia" stamp is further confirmation, as this is only found on Braunau clocks starting from the time of the WWI armistice in November 1918 when Tschechoslovakia was declared an independent country as a part of the armistice settlement. Another indicator is the very long strike hammer rod, that more than likely had a multiple hammer assembly striking on something like the GB Harfen-Gong, side strike. I've posted a scan below of this gong as illustrated in the 1912 catalog.

My questions are: what clock it was initially? What was an original case looked like and what could be used as a replacement numbers for the dial? Most of the original letters were lost (originally they were just glued to the dial sheet). What approximate weights this movement should take?

Many thanks in advance!
BR, Oleg

IMO definitely a hall clock but I have no examples in my data of what it might look like. However, the hall clocks illustrated in the 1924 GB catalog published by our member Victor Tang would most likely be of interest; I have posted a scan of Model 2654 as an example. I think any of the simple styled bevel glass door types would be suitable, I notice the hands on these clocks are identical to your clock.

There aren't many GB hall clocks with Roman numbers, for example all of the similar dials in the 1912 and 1924 catalogs have Arabic numbers. It isn't evident from your photo what material the numbers are made of but if glued on it could be something like Bakelite. You will proabably have to be inventive to find replacements, or as an alternative to silver the dial and paint in the numbers or use transfers.

Scottie has provided an estimate for the weights, although most GB weight clocks use slightly heavier "original equipment" parts. The original weights would have likely been one of the GB stamped brass shell and cap types with a lead insert, as per the Model 2654 illustration. Sometimes these can be found at auction.

A very interesting movement, hopefully you can put it with a suitable case and other parts in due course.

 

[John Hubby]

In this sentence should be Fürstenstein Castle not Furstenberg.

(Photos of Königlicher Preußischer Kronenorden IV Klasse and GB Medaille d'Or Logo) SN:196386

Flowers between words "Medaille D'or" also has evolved.
Regards
Adam

Adam, thanks very much for posting the photo of the actual medal and the logo, which I agree definitely has an eagle stamped in the center. It is also very interesting to see the striking similarity between the cross of the medal and that stamped in the logo, which I believe clearly confirms that the "Medaille d'Or" logo found on GB clocks from late third quarter 1875 coincides with the medal presentation and is definitively representative of the medal awarded at the Fürstenstein Castle ceremony.

The serial number on the clock from which your Medaille d'Or photo was taken indicates it was made in early 1879 using my most recent data update. It would be appreciated if you could post photos of the clock so it can be documented.

I agree that the representation of the flower between "Medaille" and "D'Or" did change more than once as the medal design evolved. I will shortly post a series of photos of the Medaille d'Or as it changed over the years from 1875 to 1925. There are now five variations confirmed and possibly a sixth.

 

[onisama]

Hello all! Greeting from Thailand.
Firstly, I would like to thank you to John Hubby for expedient posts, which give me very good knowledge of GB clocks dating identify.

Here, I post pictures of my friends's GB alarm clock, which make me confuse to identify the date because it's stamp FRIBURG LOGO (as 1899-1926) with sr.no. 581129 (as made 1886, out of LOGO time period).

Please help to identified the date.
Yot

 

[soaringjoy]

Hello Yot, welcome to the message board.
That is a beautiful clock you're showing and in very good
condition too!
John will probably be able to work out logo and serial number.
As to the style, theses elaborately decorated cases were much
in fashion from the 1880s to around 1910.
The short pendulum type of movement was still in use to about
WW 1. Often there was a choice of pendulum or lever escapement
movements.
Jurgen

 

[John Hubby]

Hello all! Greeting from Thailand.
Firstly, I would like to thank you to John Hubby for expedient posts, which give me very good knowledge of GB clocks dating identify.

Here, I post pictures of my friends's GB alarm clock, which make me confuse to identify the date because it's stamp FRIBURG LOGO (as 1899-1926) with sr.no. 581129 (as made 1886, out of LOGO time period).

Please help to identified the date. Yot

Yot, firstly welcome to the NAWCC Message Board and thanks for posting your inquiry and the clock photos. Actually the date of 1886 you have mentioned is correct based on the serial number of this clock.

Since I last updated my earlier post in this thread showing the logos and approximate dates for which they appear, I have found that the logo arrangement on this clock (what I list in my data as "GBF, Md'O" for "GB Freiburg, Medaille d'Or") actually first appeared in 1876 and was intermingled with the opposite layout of "Md'O, GBF" from that time until the last Md'O, GBF layout was documented in 1896. From 1896 onward through 1925, however, when these two logos appeared together it was with the GB circular logo to the left and the Medaille d'Or to the right, "GBF, Md'O". Until now I have not been able to determine why this layout difference existed, since there is no pattern evident regarding the type of movement, the logo designs, or other characteristic of the clocks on which they appeared. I really do need to replace the logo description and date file in my earlier post.

Is there a back cover for the clock? If there is one a photo will be appreciated. Many times these are missing, but would look like the photo I have attached below if it is present. This particular clock, made in 1885 not too long before the clock being discussed, is fired ceramic and one of the types I describe in the next paragraph.

This style of clock case is not unusual for the period in which it was made. I have documented a number of clocks with the same basic movement but with very interesting cases such as this one, that have a mahogany or other fine wood main case with gilt brass or bronze trim parts. There were also porcelain or ceramic cases made, elaborate cast brass cases, etc., all quite elaborate and unusual just to house a simple alarm clock movement. For those who collect alarm clocks these are considered among the most desirable in the market.

 

[onisama]

Thank you for warm welcome, Jurgen. and thank you very much John Hubby for your prompt reply.

I have attached back cover photo of this clock below, it looks same to your attached photo but little bit more decorative and also functional as bell.

Yot

 

[Ulan]

....and also functional as bell.

Hi,
Yot, nice clock.
Would you mind to show me the back side of the cover?
From the picture I see the screw in the centre - is this fixing of the cover to the case or/and holding bell?

 

[John Hubby]

Thank you for warm welcome, Jurgen. and thank you very much John Hubby for your prompt reply.

I have attached back cover photo of this clock below, it looks same to your attached photo but little bit more decorative and also functional as bell.

Yot

Yot, thanks very much for the photo. The back cover is identical to a GB alarm clock made in 1887 that I have in my database, with a bell fixed to the center. I'm posting photos of front and back, you can see the bell in the photo. If you can provide a photo of the inside of the cover with the bell as Ulan has asked that would be very much appreciated.

 

[onisama]

Hi,
Yot, nice clock.
Would you mind to show me the back side of the cover?
From the picture I see the screw in the centre - is this fixing of the cover to the case or/and holding bell?

Yot, thanks very much for the photo. The back cover is identical to a GB alarm clock made in 1887 that I have in my database, with a bell fixed to the center. I'm posting photos of front and back, you can see the bell in the photo. If you can provide a photo of the inside of the cover with the bell as Ulan has asked that would be very much appreciated.

Hi,
I post pictures of back cover and bell, which normally fix together by center nut. you can find that the back cover also stamp sr.no. from last pic.