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Discussion in 'General Clock Discussions' started by Mike306p/Ansoniaman, Jul 5, 2006.
Can we do it this way ? Mike
Here is a 2 weight Gustav Becker regulator clock,circa 1880. Mike
Gustav Becker box clock, Braunau factory, Serial No. 665,923. P-48, regular strike on three rods, Circa 1911.
GB box clock three rod gong:
GB (VFU) Free Swinger (Wag): Serial No. 1,834,447 Freiburg TM. P-42. Art nouveau, Circa early 1905.
GB 1 wt, eight day. Dial Signed G.W. Russell,
Philadelphia, Ser No. 82,212, Trademark is the first, top left, of John's TM posting. Circa 3rd quarter 1874
GB 2 WT: Serial No. 2,105,174, Freiburg, DRP 171659. Arts & crafts style C. early 1910. No "P" number.
GB (Universal) gong:
GB 2 WT Braunau factory Serial No. 455422 Circa 1905. (Thanks John!).
GB 2 WT Braunau factory, Serial No. 66287, Circa 1891. This is a marriage with a rod gong (patented 1899). The coil gong has been removed from the movement and the case could be as late as 1920s. (REF: John Hubby).
Gustav Becker Box Regulator:
Sorry, I can't post the photos directly, since it's on Angelfire.
This clock is a spring wound 8 daywith countwheel movement, 1/2 hr strike on "Gloria" gong. Stamped with plain GB and anchor logo (Freiburg 1910-1933).
I guess I messed the picture up using flickr.....Here is the one I meant to post...The only GB that I have kept.http://jjinbeat.com/inbeat/Becker2wt.jpg
I am adding the serial number after John's post. 79040. The logo is the first one on John's list. Must be 1870's.
Inbeat, you also have a GB anniversary clock on your Flickr page. This thread if for ANY GB clocks...
I have a dual chime mantle I want to post, but it's in pieces at the moment.
Ouch...you are correct sir....
Since I am mostly into wooden clocks and Seth Thomas clocks, I did not even think of the Becker disc pendulum clock...I know many people collect these things but I got it recently and don't think much of it so I forgot....Also...I don't consider it one of the "keepers" that I have...just one whose stay is "iffy"....
Serial number is 2450341 but mark is not recessed and appears to be the one on John's sheet as dated 1894-1903..Clock is on a shelf that has another shelf above it so I have not taken the other clocks off and taken off the dome and photographed the back.
UPDATED NOV. 25, 2014
If you folks will post serial numbers AND which logo (Freiburg or Braunau) is on the clocks I'll provide accurate dating. You can edit the posts already made to include that info. The GB logos previously posted here have been replaced with an updated set, shown here with revised approximate dates as well as double the number of logos:
LOGOS FOR FREIBURG, SILESIA FACTORY ©1995-2017 J. S. HUBBY. COPY FOR PERSONAL USE ONLY.
Additional information and comments for each logo shown, starting upper left and progressing by rows. PLEASE NOTE the overlaps of various logos within given timelines, in some instances several logos were in active use at the same time:
1852 - 1877: GB anchor logo by itself. Documented to have been used within these years, possibly earlier but not later.
1869 - 1877: Same GB anchor logo but includes "GUSTAV BECKER FREIBURG i/S". Predominant logo in these years.
1875 - 1896: Medaille d'Or awarded August 1875, circular GB Freiburg logo introduced same time. Used with Medaille to the left and GB logo to the right from time of introduction to 1896, this was the predominant logo set in this time period.
1883 - 1885: The winged hourglass on world logo was used for a short period as noted.
1877 - 1925: The GB circular logo was moved to the left and Medaille d'Or to the right on some clocks made from 1877. The reverse positions were predominant until 1896 at which time this logo set became predominant until 1925. About mid-year 1925, this logo set was discontinued.
1877 - 1894: A stylized version of the earlier GB anchor logo was introduced in 1877 and used to 1894, found solely on spring driven clocks. Used mainly for the back cover of GB alarm clocks and other novelty clocks.
1887 - 1900: The GB circular Freiburg logo was used by itself primarily on spring driven wall clock movements, perhaps these were not considered of high enough quality to merit the application of the Medaille d'Or.
1894 - 1900: A fancier version of the GB anchor logo having a clock dial in the center of the crown was used on better quality clocks in this period.
1898 - 1899: The "double lion" GB logo was used for about two years. This logo is actually a near-copy of an A. Willmann & Co logo that was used from 1895 - 1899.
1900 - 1906: Another version of the GB anchor logo was introduced in 1900 and only used a short time. Note the clock dial is no longer there, nor any other mark in the center of the This one is found mainly on spring-driven wall clocks that have a strike control countwheel mounted on the back plate.
1908 - 1912: A block letter "GUSTAV GB BECKER" logo in oval form. This logo has been found on both "Amerikaner" and solid plate design movements within this period.
1906 - 1925: Another and fancier GB anchor logo with a wide crown and what appears to be a crescent moon in the center that was used only for "Amerikaner" design movements. The word SILESIA is stamped below the logo, indicating this movement has solid cut pinions and other features that were 'superior' to the competition.
1914 - 1934: The same fancy GB anchor logo as for the previously described version but without the SILESIA stamp. This version was introduced in 1914 when GB finally started making their "Amerikaner" movements with lantern pinions. This logo was used exclusively for Amerikaner movements to around 1922 when it was also used on some wall clock and grandfather clock movements. It was last used for movements made in the Freiburg, Silesia factory up through 1932 with that factory was closed, but has been found in dated clocks as late as 1934 that were assembled by Junghans, using "leftover" Freiburg movements.
1922 - 1932: This simpler version GB anchor logo was first used on GB 400-Day clocks and continued to the end of 1932 when Freiburg production was shut down. It was also used for Westminster chime movements made from 1925 to 1932, some wall clocks with solid plate movements, and grandfather clocks in that same period.
1918 - 1940: The block letter "GUSTAV BECKER GERMANY" logo was used on various clocks made with GB design movements until the Freiburg factory closed at the end of 1932 and then on Junghans or HAC movements sold as Gustav Becker clocks from 1933 to 1940.
1933 - 1940: This very simple and smallest of all GB anchor logos was used on Junghans and HAC movements sold as Gustav Becker clocks from 1933 to 1940
NOTE FOR USERS: These illustrations represent all known GB logos used on movements and for the indicated dates. If others are found they will be added in due course. The dates shown are subject to change as more data is compiled
LOGOS FOR BRAUNAU, BOHEMIA FACTORY ©1995-2017 J. S. HUBBY. COPY FOR PERSONAL USE ONLY.
1902 - 19??: This circular GB Braunau logo has only been found on two clocks to date, both made in 1902 based on their serial numbers. Additional dates will be added if and when documented.
1888 - 1926: The GB Braunau factory had its own unique set of serial numbers and also some of their own logos, denoted by the addition of "Braunau i. Boehm" around the circle below the GB anchor and Freiburg i. Sch. stamp. This logo set with the GB circular Braunau logo and the Medaille d'Or stamp was used for the entire production period that factory was producing GB clocks.
1913, 1920 - 25: The identical GB fancy anchor with SILESIA stamp logo as described for Freiburg "Amerikaner" clocks was also used for "Amerikaner" clocks finished in the GB Braunau, Bohemia factory. Evidently the movements were made in Frieburg and stamped with the logo but finished and stamped with a Braunau serial number at that factory. They have been documented to have been made in 1913, then from 1920 to 1925. Also, these movements were a higher quality than the Freiburg version, having Graham deadbeat escapement as well as solid cut pinions and solid plates front and back.
1918 - 1926: The "MADE IN TSCHECHOSLOVAKIA" stamp was placed on most movements made or finished in Braunau starting just after the WWI armistice in November 1918 and continued in use until GB clock production ceased in 1926. NOTE that present evidence indicates the Braunau factory continued to assemble GB clocks using Freiburg movements from 1926 and continuing to 1932 but did not manufacture any clocks. After 1932 that factory was then owned by Junghans and converted to assembly of Junghans clocks until the beginning of WWII.
Thanks to all for helping nail down even better when these clocks were made!
I have updated my description. I also wanted to know if you remember the dual chime mantle clock I posted not long ago.
I had another look at the movement the other day, and noticed two things:
1: the "drilled-off" logo actually still shows GB and part of the anchor, since these were deeply stamped into the plate.
2: The escapement is extremely unusual. I will eventually post more photos, but it looks like it could possibly be a "tic-tac" escapement? No, I just checked a site that has animated escapements, and I think it's a Brocot. I had never seen one before. The escape wheel is tiny. Smaller than a dime.
Actually, I was very curious about the exact logo of my wall clock, so I took it down. I've wanted to get a better photo for ages. As it turns out, the logo is "none of the above".
It's basically the same as the Silesia one (crown is very big/round with a 'c' in it, and anchor tips are long and pointy), but it doesn't say Silesia.
I will try to upload a photo.... soon.
EDIT: New photo added here:
I added the numbers for each of my two GBs...and described the logos....
westminster chiming gustav becker clock in a cathedral case.
Whittington/Westminster chiming gustav becker clock you gottas love the barley twist corners :biggrin:.
Both made between 1894 and 1903
OK, here's a start on the dating trail starting with the first clock posted:
Mike, Altdeutsch porthole style. I'm guessing this one is from Braunau, not Freiburg, so it will be about 20 years later than you posted. Logo ID and serial number will tell the tale.
Richard T, Architectural case 2-Chime Braunau S/N 455422. Made Late 1905 (this date is based on a recent update of all my Braunau info).
Richard T, Box clock marriage, mvmt Braunau S/N 66287. Made 1891. Rod gong introduction date stated is correct, 1898. Anyone says a rod gong clock was made earlier than this has the wrong info.
Sooth, Box regulator with fancy crown GB Anchor logo. I don't have that logo recorded so it's a new addition to my logo file. Don't know the significance of the "C" in the crown. My judgement is the clock was made early 1920's in the Freiburg factory. That date is based on the "M" stamped on the right side of the back plate.
Steve S, interesting Altdeutsche Wag, do you have the logo and S/N info?
Inbeat, Vienna style regulator 2-Chime, Freiburg Anchor logo, S/N 79040. Made 1874. Very nice piece!
Inbeat, 400-Day clock No. 8 upper bracket, disc pendulum 23D, back plate 1206B. S/N 2450341. Made early 1925. The GB anchor logo is a minor variation of the one I show 1910-1933 (as noted should be 1910-1940).
Sooth, dual chime mantel clock. Post photo of the anchor, a Brocot (as Scottie says) has half-round pallets. Not seen a GB with this type escapement.
srwilson, two westminsters. What are the serial numbers and logos? Also, the pendulum length numbers (e.g. P14 or P18)? First guess is that both clocks are 10-15 years later than you posted based on about 50 of these I have in my database.
Thanks to all for the info. The value of this exercise, among others, is that new info is "always" found if one looks deep enough. Sooth's GB anchor logo, to wit.
As requested, here is the Gustav Becker Brocot.
I'm told this is not technically a true brocot, because it doesn't have the regulation on it (can usually be adjusted through the dial). I'm not sure what the general opinion is on this, however.
The escape wheel is tiny. It's probably only about 1/2 inch wide.
Please note: The clock has not been cleaned, adjusted, or repaired yet. So you can clearly see a bunch of crud on it. My appologies.
These photos afre from this clock:
I have a very large napoleon hat/tambour GB westminster mantle clock. It is approximately 12 inches high and 24 inches wide. Interestingly, it has a similar logo to the one Sooth has posted, with P14 directly under the logo and O stamped on the right side of the movement. It has a low serial number 3083. The winding holes are set close together like Sooth's. Over the weekend I will attempt to take some pictures, with some closeups of the movement. I dont know at this stage if the escapement is similar to the one Sooth has.
You guys put me to shame! Here's my budget 1921 box, strikes on a gloria going, doesn't even have rods! Crys*
Sooth: Would like to clarify a couple of points regarding your dual chime clock, please confirm.
* The "Brocot" escapement is from this clock
* This is the same clock that had the two GB logos drilled off, no other GB logo is present.
* The serial number is 4534.
* There is an "O" stamped at the right side of the back plate.
* The pendulum number is P14 (not seen in photo)
I await your response, but I think now I know why the logos were drilled off.
Lofty: Would like to see photos especially of the logo, but based on the info you have supplied your clock was made in late 1929. This was after Junghans took over the VFU (Gustav Becker) operations in early 1926. They started a new serial numbering system at that time, from the number 1, but evidently applied it only to the W'minster chime mantel clocks and 400-Day clocks.
Pastimes - neither has a serial number but they both have the exact logo for 1894 - 1903 ive compared the logos with other similar ones for later dates but they are the exact same logo as the 1894 to 1903. Also I asked 3 other clock dealers what they thought they were they checked their books and came to the same conclusion from the matching logo.
So as far as I am concerned that is when they were made unless someone can seriously prove me wrong.
srwilson, I am quite surprised there is no serial number on either clock. Up to today, all the GB westminster chime clocks I have documented (more than 100) have serial numbers, normally at the bottom of the back plate just behind the pendulum bob, or sometimes at the same position on the front plate of the clock (like Sooth's clock photo above).
Could you post a clear photo of the logo? Also of the full back plates with the pendulum removed if you could, that might provide more clues. For example, I've not yet documented any GB westminster without the pendulum mark, either P14 or P18.
One last question, is the word "Foreign" or "Foreign Made" on the dial just outside the minute ring at 6:00?
PS: I've enjoyed the chime recordings you have made!
Theres no foreign thing below the 6 0 clock either
but that 1984 - 1903 logo is on both clocks back plates and on both dials.
The clocks are up on high shelves I hate disturbing them I am pretty sure 85% the big one is a pendulum 14. Ill take a photo when I have em down again to dust next week. please understand.
EDIT - I checked the big one cathedral case one the pendulum IS a 14 and has 274 written at the bottom back and absolutly 1000000000000000000000000% has the 1894 - 1903 logo. The other one I cannot get up to tonight that will have to wait.
But I know it has the 1894 - 1903 logo.
ps on a side note which clock recording you like the most? heh I had to ask.
Hi Pastimes, I had not gotten your message, I just saw it now:
>> The "Brocot" escapement is from this clock
>> This is the same clock that had the two GB logos drilled off, no other GB logo is present.
There is just one logo, and yes. There is no other GB logo anywhere (dial is plain).
>> The serial number is 4534.
Yes, and it's stamped in 3 places (back plate, front plate at the bottom, and again on the front plate behind the snail).
>> There is an "O" stamped at the right side of the back plate.
>> The pendulum number is P14 (not seen in photo)
No. There's no other markings on the movement. I am absolutely sure, because I just looked at it now (it's not in the case at the moment).
As for my wall clock, I think 1910-1920 is very close. The movement is marked M as you saw, and P42. Not the best GB I've seen. I think the case is all pine, and it's been stained very dark.
I've just posted a major update of the logos I had shown on the first page. There are several changes, including the addition of the logo Sooth posted earlier. Explanations about what changes were made are in the edited text of that message.
Thanks to all for making me go back and check the source info!!
Sooth, thanks for the confirmations. I was thinking the movement had two logos including the Medaille d'Or, but looks like it had only the GB anchor. In my judgement that would have been the "NEW" one now in my logo layout, same as the one you posted earlier. I still don't have any reasonable explanation why the logo was "erased".
I have only documented a couple dual chime GB's and I don't know whether the others had the "P" info, because I just couldn't see it in the photos. In any event, your clock was made in early 1932.
Robert T, thanks for updating with serial numbers etc. Great clocks!! Here's what I have now, including a couple of questions:
1) Box style, Braunau serial number 665,923: Made late 1911. Two questions: Is there a "P" number, and is the gong strike a bim-bam type?
2) VFU Wag, Freiburg serial number 1,834,447: Made early 1905, very nice Art Nouveau example and fits the period.
3) Russell time only weight model, Freiburg serial number 82,212: Made 3rd quarter 1874. The movement appears to be 8-day, is that correct?
4) Tall clock, Freiburg serial number 2,105,174: Made early 1910, nice example of Arts & Crafts style that was popular at that time. Is there a "P" number? If Duck is watching, he should be able to provide info about the patent DRP 171659.
On a added note I checked both beckers today and they both have the 1894 - 1903 logo and have that little clock dial in the middle of them.
I don't think we need to dispute their age anymore now .
In 1996 Karl Kochmann sent me this photo of his GB Grand Sonerie Restoration. It hung on his study wall, and was his prized possession.
PS 10Jul2006 I'm trying to fix the link to the picture. Standby.
I found the key to wind up this picture. It's working now.
Welcome Willard Wheaton. WWW. I attempted to access your reference to Karl Kochmann's clock and was unable to do so. :frown: Mike
1) Box style, Braunau serial number 665,923: Made late 1911. Two questions: Is there a "P" number, and is the gong strike a bim-bam type? P-48, Not bim-bam, regular strike on three rods
2) VFU Wag, Freiburg serial number 1,834,447: Made early 1905, very nice Art Nouveau example and fits the period. Thank you.
3) Russell time only weight model, Freiburg serial number 82,212: Made 3rd quarter 1874. The movement appears to be 8-day, is that correct? Yes, it is an eight day.
4) Tall clock, Freiburg serial number 2,105,174: Made early 1910, nice example of Arts & Crafts style that was popular at that time. Is there a "P" number? If Duck is watching, he should be able to provide info about the patent DRP 171659. No. P number. Just trademarks and serial number.
John, Thanks for the information.
srwilson, thanks for rechecking the logos on your clocks against those I have now posted. When you get the opportunity, would really like to see photos of the backplates of both clocks to confirm the logos, as these may be the earliest documented examples. Also, could you confirm the "P" numbers on the plates?
John the big cathedral case one is a P 14 I know the other one is a smaller pendulum.
I will try get pics of the logos when I have the clocks down again for dusting.
Gustav Becker Cartel Clock. I will post more tomorrow. Travis
Willard, regarding Kochmann's clock do you have any photos of the back plate? Or a serial number, logo description, etc.?
Here are the pics of my Gustav Becker. As I said previously, this is a very large clock for its type (12 inches tall and 24 inches wide). It sits on a seatboard which is over 1 inch thick.
What does your GB play? without seeing the back, I'd guess it's a westminster, but it looks a lot like my dual chime (but is lacking the levers in the dial).
EDIT: scratch that, just went and re-read your other post.
Actually not. The springs on these clocks aren't any bigger or stronger than the ones in a Kienzle or Mauthe Westminster clock. FWIW, I think the gear reduction winding was done for two reasons:
1) Aesthetics. This allowed placing all three winding arbors inside the chapter ring, a much more pleasing effect than having holes cut in the IV, VI, and VIII numbers.
2) Ease of winding. The slight gear reduction would make it easier to wind. I have a couple other Westminsters and they are "not" the easiest in the world to wind.
Posted for Steve Cunningham . A Gustav Becker 3 weight wall clock. Mike
Mike, did Steve provide any particulars? Logos, Serial Number, etc?
Here is a list of some Gustav Becker serial numbers / dates to help date your clocks. Mike. P.S. John I emailed Steve privately to ask for serial number data etc on his clock.
Gustav Becker serial numbers
Greetings Beckerites -- Someone up there John Hubby asked about DRP 171659. It shows up on a lot of GB/VFUs, and of course provides a "not earlier than date" that can be used to snuggle (<-- a tech term) serial numbers. It was discussed in a previous MB thread.
The important thing to note about the patent is not that it was for noiseless striking. Rather, that the effective-from date of 22 July 1904, when the protection was dated from, is NOT when the patent was officially issued, and the number assigned. This was sometime around May 1906. And this is an important difference when it comes to dating.
All of the DRPs by the way may be downloaded through depatisnet.
As a "forgot to mention" on my last comment, please also note that DRP 171659 is not dated from 8 June 1906 as has been stated on the MB elsewhere.
This was the date that the specifications themselves were published/released/ausgegeben. The "erteilt" or issuing date -- from when the DRP number is assigned and officially noticed, is always between the effective date and the date the specifications are given out. In this case early in May.
The differences might be small in these two dates -- patent issued and specifications given out -- but they are there and there they are.
Duck, for dating purposes I have always used the date for which the patent number was issued, which in this case would be the May 1906 date (I think). Clocks made prior to that date could not have been stamped with that number even though the invention might have been a couple years old as in this case, obviously after that date they could be.
Is this correct?
John -- Yes, that's exactly right.
What the _DUZ_ was publishing, through a Berlin patent bureau, getting their information from the head patent office (then) in Berlin, was the most recent news about patents. The _Deutsche Uhrmacher-Zeitung_ (DUZ) was publishing these in their biweekly issues.
So for example in the 1. April 1906 _DUZ_ we have a record of patent applications, DRGMs and DRPs granted as of ("Stand vom...") 20 March 1906. The next issue was 15 April 1906 reporting patent information from the main office in Berlin "as of" 5 April 1906. And then in the 1 May 1906 we have our DRP 171659 (but they left out the "Stand vom...), that is, up to when the info was gathered. So we can assume the info was posted, so to speak, in middle to latish April, and one doubts that they were holding the stamping presses, so to speak, so any markings would have been somewhat later.
What's important however is that the DRP number could not have appeared before the official "issued" date, and that is different from the "effective from date." And in the historical German system the effective-from date was always earlier than the date-of-issue.
Later patents also had the "erteilt" date on the specifications. This was also included in the Patentblatt, the official publication. An example of this can be seen on page 597 of the October 2000 _Bulletin_ with DRP 490 343 (in the article I'd written on German horological patents).
I have two Viennas with identical movements. The only difference is that the hands are different, and sometime in the past, some kind soul polished the silvered finish off the second baroque dial. The logo is the one for Braunau 1888-1926. The serial number of the 2nd baroque is 387575, and the other is 394546.
Travis, very nice clocks! For the 2nd Baroque clock dial, have you done any resilvering? It's not all that difficult, although with all the engraving around the numbers it might get laborious to fill in all that with black dial wax.
Your two clocks were made fairly close together at the Braunau works. The first clock (2nd Baroque) with serial number 387575 was made around mid 4th quarter 1903, and the second one with serial number 394546 was made early 1st quarter 1904. At the production rate they had at that time of roughly 32,000 clocks per year, they were made about 80 days apart. They have many similar features, in particular the dials and hands, and the movements appear to be virtually identical at least from the back.
This is a GB RA size 2nd baroque. It has the GB logo with Silesia printed under it. Serial number is 630849.