Post Your Gustav Becker 400-Day CLocks Here

Discussion in '400-Day & Atmos' started by John Arrowood, May 21, 2002.

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  1. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    Re: two tone Becker

    John, thanks for posting the additional photos. It looks to me the movement support pillars may have been colored at one time. The base outside the dome, however, just looks like normal tarnish on long exposure to the atmosphere.

    Your clock "is" a Becker, made right at mid-1912 based on the serial number. It is good to see the movement serial number scribed on the bottom of the pendulum, this shows the movement and pendulum started life together. It looks to me your clock is quite complete including the suspension guard.
     
  2. Jwright

    Jwright Registered User

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    Re: Gustav Becker 4 Glass Wooden Case.

    I realise I am resurrecting an old post but I have bought an identical clock to the above one with serial number
    1732190 the pendulum has no serial number. Capture.PNG SAM_9598.jpg SAM_9605.jpg SAM_9606.jpg SAM_9599.jpg SAM_9600.jpg SAM_9601.jpg SAM_9595.jpg SAM_9596.jpg SAM_9597.jpg
     
  3. ivancooke

    ivancooke Registered User

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    Re: Gustav Becker 4 Glass Wooden Case.

    Nice clock JW, it is in good original condition.
    Though there is no number on the pendulum, it does look right for the clock.
    Going by the serial number, it is older than my clock, perhaps by a year or more.
    I have 2 of these clocks now, both going well, and doing around 360 degrees.




    Ivan.
     
  4. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

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    Re: Gustav Becker 4 Glass Wooden Case.

    The date, JW, should be mid September, '03.
     
  5. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    Re: Gustav Becker 4 Glass Wooden Case.

    Thanks for posting! Very nice example of Model No. 480 as illustrated in GB Sales Catalogs. The same style case with the carriage clock style dial (rectangular silvered) is Model No. 482.

    Martin's manufacturing date is correct. This model was first introduced in mid-1903 and continued in production to about the end of 1912. No examples have been documented after 3rd quarter 1912 even though this model is featured in the GB 1912 catalog.

    I'm merging this thread with our "Post Your Gustav Becker 400-Day Clocks Here" thread to keep these together and for identification and documentation purposes.
     
  6. Covkid1945

    Covkid1945 Registered User

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    Becker 1903 400-day clock problem

    Hello all.
    I have a baffling problem with a Gustav Becker 400 day four-glass clock, from its serial number made in 1903, which has a disc pendulum. Someone had damaged the escape wheel, and now, after having a new one made, I can get the clock to run. The problem, however, is that it runs very slowly - it loses minutes per hour, although the pendulum rotates roughly one turn, and looks to run at a 'normal' rate. I have done every check I can think of: the movement runs freely; it has the correct mainspring, correct suspension spring, it's in beat. All the parts carry teh same reference number. Someone - the same person who wrecked the escape wheel, no doubt - also lost the setting for the pallet nibs. I think I now have them correctly set (though it's always difficult to be sure), but itr would be unlikely that pallet depthing would alter the beat rate.

    I weighed and measured the pendulum diameter; it's 410 grams and 82 mm diameter, which appears sensible. (Anyone know different??) It looks correct, and according to the Horolovar book is the most popular pattern pendulum at that date, for that movement; however, there is currently a similar one on eBay which I have established weighs 384 grams and is the same diameter, and is lead-filled.

    For the sake of my sanity, I would be very grateful if anyone could offer some clues about this issue.

    Many thanks indeed, for anyone who can help!

    Covkid 1945
     
  7. shutterbug

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    Re: Becker 1903 400-day clock problem

    You need a thicker suspension spring. If you let us know the current size and how much per hour it's losing we can calculate the difference and recommend a spring. Also, be sure it's a genuine Horolovar spring. There are others out there that are too wide and throw things off. If you order complete suspension units from most of the current suppliers, you get the wrong spring with it.
     
  8. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    Re: Becker 1903 400-day clock problem

    Covkid, welcome to the NAWCC Message Board and thanks for posting your inquiry.

    Shutterbug is correct. Also, although the Repair Guide specifies a 0.0040 inch (0.102 mm) suspension spring, many of the early Beckers need a stronger spring to run to time. This is particularly applicable to the clocks with a glass dome.

    You mention you have a 4-Glass case, in which instance you may also have the suspension spring too long. It should be a length that will set the bottom of the pendulum disc about 1/4 inch above the bottom window frame of the 4-Glass case, which will be at least 1/2 inch to 3/4 inch above the inside bottom of the case. See this catalog illustration of model No. 480 with mahogany or oak 4-Glass case:

    Mod. No. 480.jpg This is from the 1912 GB catalog published by our member Victor Tang (www.any400day.com). This exact model has been documented to be made from 1903 to 1913. The pendulum position for the brass frame 4-Glass case would be similar.

    That allows you to see the complete pendulum in the glass. The spring is nominally about 5 inches long, shortening it by 1/2 inch will speed up the clock by 10% or 6 minutes per hour (2 hours and 24 minutes per day) with your existing spring. Shortening by 1/4 inch will speed up the clock by 3 minutes per hour. As Shutt has asked we do need to know how much time is being lost per hour or per day and can advise a different strength or length as appropriate.

    Also it will be much appreciated if you could provide the clock serial number and photos of the clock so we can see exactly what you have. I am moving your thread to the "Post Your Gustav Becker 400-Day Clocks Here" thread in the 400-Day Forum so it will receive more exposure and be in the correct place for archival purposes.
     
  9. Covkid1945

    Covkid1945 Registered User

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    Re: two tone Becker

    Hello Mr Hubby and all, and thanks for comments already. My clock has the serial number 1762172; it looks identical to the one in JW's post of Feb this year. I did use a genuine Horolovar suspension spring; as I recall I bought the boxed set, and used the thickest in the set (forgotten the thickness, will measure in due course), and also shortened it to about 1/2 inch from the base.

    I have been repairing clocks - though mainly watches - for around 20 years now, and had quite a lot of training from a watch and clockmaker; but in those 20 years, this is only the second 400 day to land in my lap. The first one gave very little trouble (a Badische Uhren Fabrik of about 1910) but I was sold for very little money a number of clocks that someone had tried to repair some years ago, failed, and then given them back to their owner, telling him to scrap them. He didn't, fortunately. After I retired I decided I would get the 400 day running, because it's a lovely clock (IMHO!) and I would love to have it on my sideboard. But I hadn't realised what a mess had been made of it. It's running at the moment without its hands, and seems a little better; before the latest adjustments it was losing around 5 minutes per hour. I was hoping that I could find out if it has the correct pendulum (it looks like it does, judging by JW's photos) , and maybe someone else had met a similar problem. When it's back together I can photograph it for your archives.
     
  10. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

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    Re: two tone Becker

    If you got it to go 360 degrees I'd say you have the pallet adjusting idiosyncrasys of these down pat. Kudos.
     
  11. Covkid1945

    Covkid1945 Registered User

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    Re: two tone Becker

    Hello Martin
    Well, it's confounded me! I left it a while and when I came back.....it had stopped. It will only run with the tooth tip hitting the heel of the impulse surface; almost skipping teeth, in fact. It appears to be in beat, both without the suspension in, and using the disc with a paper arrow attached against a scale, and looking for the release of each tooth.

    Info that I had previously tried to get was: weight of the pendulum (I think it has the serial number of another clock scratched under it (could be a repair mark); how long the movement takes to wind down, with the pallet fork removed; and since I had to have one made, the correct diameter of the escape wheel (the one I had made is 17.34 mm tooth tip to tooth tip diameter). The problem that I have found is that there is so little information for these clocks. All of this information could be useful to others, too.

    What I did to set the pallets was:
    1. adjust the eccentric pivot hole so that the escape and pallet arbors are parallel.
    2. adjust the pallet nibs until the tooth tips are both equal, and contact just above the heel of the impulse face (it won't run with the tooth tips hitting the pallets any higher than this i.e. with less drop; when I did have it running, it was tending to impact on the impulse face on the entry pallet.)
    3. check that the pallet fork pin swings equally both ways to the point where a tooth escapes.
    4. install suspension and adjust so that the pendulum is in beat.

    I've tried to leave the eccentric alone.
    Does this make sense? Or does someone know of a better way, perhaps?

    Thanks very much for helping.
    BTW, Mr Hubby - it's late night here now; I'll try to take and post some photos tomorrow. And the info about the suspension wire.
     
  12. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

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    Re: two tone Becker

    Setting the lock and drop on these is something I personally, can't ever figure out a good way to explain.
    When people say they need to be equal, I get the concept; but, I really never have fully understood what they mean, exactly.
    I just know that for most 400 day clocks, I adjust the escapement so it is 'pushing' teeth on the EW and then back it off till they just stop doing that and it usually gives the most power (Though not always. Sometimes, just a bit more clearance is needed to give the maximum transfer.).

    If you're starting totally from scratch with the stones, one method of getting the eccentric to a good starting point is to pin the plates together with nice, snug drill bits and using an appropriately sized bit or wire, find the best place to locate the eccentric using the front plate as a guide. At least that gets you a good center for a starting point when setting the stones, initially. Doing this reduces the chances of any kind of a pivot bind due to the arbor being out of square.
     
  13. shutterbug

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    Re: two tone Becker

    Check your over swing. You have to have a good 1/2" or more. If you don't, lower the fork just a little until you do.
     
  14. John Hubby

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    Re: two tone Becker

    Based on the serial number your clock was made in the Jan-Mar quarter of 1904. You mention there is a number on the bottom of the pendulum, I would appreciate if you could post it here even if not the same number as on your clock. I keep a very large database of GB clocks and sometimes can find a match for both pendulums and clocks that have gone astray for one reason or another. Since I started this I have matched up five clocks with their original pendulums, even one where the pendulum was in Texas and the clock in England.

    You mentioned a post by "JW", I can't find that user name anywhere. If you could let us know the exact name shown for this user then we can find the clock you are referring to otherwise it's not to be found. I'll look forward to see the photos of your clock.
     
  15. ivancooke

    ivancooke Registered User

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    #365 ivancooke, Aug 22, 2013
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    Re: two tone Becker

    Hi John, JW is short for "Jwright".
    He posted a similar clock on 17/8/13.
    His join date was Feb 2013.



    Ivan.
     
  16. Covkid1945

    Covkid1945 Registered User

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    #366 Covkid1945, Aug 22, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2013
    Re: two tone Becker

    Back plate.jpg Entry pallet.jpg Exit pallet.jpg Front.jpg Pendulum top.jpg Pendulum under.jpg

    Hi folks
    Progress with the photos! I don't know if you'll feel these are big enough, but here they are. As you see, I drilled two holes in the backplate (reluctantly!) so as to see what was going on. Definitely helps. It was very difficult to hold the pendulum in the right place but I've managed to get two not very good shots of the pallet engagements; in this condition it won't keep running.

    I have spotted on the photograph of the underside of the pendulum the serial number; I couldn't see it by eye, but the camera picked it up. It does match the movement. It's at the bottom of the underside of the pendulum, right by the rim.

    MartinM - you said: "I adjust the escapement so it is 'pushing' teeth on the EW and then back it off [pallet depth or eccentric?]till they just stop doing that" I'm sorry, but I can't quite get what you mean by that. I aligned the pivot holes front and rear by measuring the distance between the escape and pallet pivot holes in the front plate, and then setting the rear the same with the eccentric. My next step was then to adjust the pallet nibs until they caught with the tooth tips just above the heel of the pallet - more or less as in the photographs - using a jewelling tool, pushing the pallets in or out until I got equal movement of the pin side-to-side. (Very difficult to explain this, isn't it? :)

    I keep thinking that I must be doing something wrong, but I can't see what. If only they were as straightforward as the old English longcase movements........

    The suspension wire is .09mm (35 thou) thick.
     
  17. shutterbug

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    Re: two tone Becker

    Your pallet lock is fine. Check the over swing.
     
  18. Covkid1945

    Covkid1945 Registered User

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    Re: two tone Becker

    Hi Shutterbug
    {I take it from your ID that you're a photography nut like me? ;-) }

    Thank you for the comment. I thought they looked OK like that. And the overswing seemed fine (it swung about 360 at first), but after about 15 minutes it slowed down gradually and stopped. It's just as if there isn't enough impulse. The movement takes about 20-25 minutes to wind down without the pallets in; but there is a definite 'tick' from each pallet when I move the pin over and each pallet releases. I've been thinking that it might be worth taking the mainspring out and pulling it out straight, then re-installing it and trying again. I had bought the specified Horolovar one, and that wasn't as strong as the one in the clock, though. I checked all the pivots and holes, and they seemed OK. I oiled it with Moebius D2 up to the centre, then Moebius 9020 from centre to the pallets. The only way I can get it to run is to reduce the lock until it tends to recoil slightly as the pendulum goes into overswing - but it shouldn't be like that, surely? I've checked and double-checked the beat setting, but maybe I'm not getting it right. I guess you can see why I've been tearing my hair out!

    The person who damaged the original escape wheel must have been playing with the eccentric, because all the escape wheel teeth were badly burred over. The diameter had reduced so much that the eccentric had to be moved until the pallet arbor pivot was over 1 mm nearer to the escape pivot than at the other end! Clearly, it was never going to run like that. I'm wondering if it might have done some other damage, maybe to gear teeth, but I can't see anything amiss.
     
  19. harold bain

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    Re: two tone Becker

    Chances are it's not the mainspring, but if your replacement doesn't match the thickness of the original, I would put the original back in, unless it was broken or cracked. On a full wind, it should run regardless of the spring's overall condition. Perhaps a power loss elsewhere in the train.
     
  20. John Hubby

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    Re: two tone Becker

    How much overswing do you actually have? We measure this at the perimeter of the pendulum, and should be at least 1/2 inch of rotation after the "tick" in both directions of rotation. Also, the suspension spring strength you mention is VERY thin compared to the Horolovar recommended, which is 0.102 mm. If that is the spring strength you are using you should be running very slow indeed.

    Remember also that when you are reducing lock your are increasing drop and that leads to your needing to raise the fork too high to stop fluttering thus reducing overswing. When it says in Section 7 of the Repair Guide that lock and drop should be equal for best operation, that IS FACT for a 400-Day clock (See Page 44, Figure 6). For a vienna regulator you look for maximum lock but NOT with these clocks. When properly set, the lock and drop will be between 0.7 and 0.9 mm which equates to the 2 degrees shown on the escapement illustration Figure 6.
     
  21. Covkid1945

    Covkid1945 Registered User

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    Re: two tone Becker

    Hi John
    The overswing looks about 3/4 inch one way and about 1 inch the other. Yes, I do appreciate the lock and drop relationship; as it is, it's running, but with the lock reduced to, I'd say, about 0.4, 0.5 mm.

    Update! About 3/4 hour has elapsed since I wrote the above. I just checked the thickness with a high-grade micrometer instead of a caliper, and it measures 0.100. Having looked again at the clock, after it's been running for about 3/4 hour, the overswing has reduced to about 1/2 inch.

    So I guess the next thing to do will be to lower the fork, say until it starts to flutter, and see what happens; then increase the lock, and again see what happens. The pallets release currently at about plus/minus 2 degrees, so that must be increased. I'm beginning to make more sense of it now. As you no doubt understand, I have no useful experience of 400 day clocks other than what I have done on this one.

    Many thanks.
     
  22. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

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    #372 MartinM, Aug 22, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 22, 2013
    Re: two tone Becker

    I'm so glad to have this epiphany, I'm not going to pretend to be embarrassed.
    All this time when somebody said, "Lock and drop must be equal", I thought they meant in comparison to each other (See how that doesn't make a lick of sense?)
    Finding out that they meant both locks should be equal and both drops should be equal is both reassuring and obvious.
    Funny how the mind wants to assemble words in a certain way, sometimes.
    This thread was what made me take another tack on the term's meaning:
    https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?14497-Lock-n-Drop

    ETA: In that thread there's a reference to a site that provides an applet that lets you do 'what if' analysis on Graham escapements:
    It's not set-up for 400 day movements, but it's got great conceptualization.
    http://www.clockwatch.de/
    On the left, expand "Theory", "Escapements", "(Models of...)", "Graham"
    Click on "Modify" at the top, to adjust a parameter.
     
  23. Covkid1945

    Covkid1945 Registered User

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    Re: Becker 1903 400-day clock problem

    Good afternoon everyone
    Well, my clock ran all night. BUT I lowered the fork (i.e. increased the gap between the top of the fork and the bottom of the spring clamp); that reduced the swing by about 100 degrees. In other words, it just staggered along all night. With the fork moved back up, the swing is returned to about 230 degrees, and the disc swings fairly quickly.

    John, you said: "to raise the fork too high to stop fluttering thus reducing overswing." As I understand it, raising the fork - as I proved above - increases swing, since the pendulum must travel further in order to release each pallet.

    MartinM: you said "All this time when somebody said, "Lock and drop must be equal", I thought they meant in comparison to each other (See how that doesn't make a lick of sense?)
    Finding out that they meant both locks should be equal and both drops should be equal is both reassuring and obvious." I read it as you did - each lock must equal each drop. I couldn't understand why that should be. As you say, the amount of lock on the entry and exit pallets should equal, the amount of drop on the entry and exit pallets should be equal. If it isn't, the pallet fork will be notionally 'out of beat', (actually, the pin will lie over) and the suspension spring must then be turned to compensate. They aren't quite equal in my clock, but not so far out as to cause it to stop.

    I'm going to put the dial and hands back on now, and see what it does; if it is somewhere near to keeping time, I shall leave it alone apart from regulating it.

    I'm very grateful for all the helpful comments, thank you all. The exercise has certainly got my brain back in gear, I'd got to seeing loads of trees, and couldn't find any wood. Gets you like that, when a clock problem refuses to be resolved!

    I'll post a pic of it complete later for the archive.
     
  24. Covkid1945

    Covkid1945 Registered User

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    Re: two tone Becker

    With the hands on it stops. Won't tolerate the load of the motion work...
     
  25. John Hubby

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    Re: Becker 1903 400-day clock problem

    Covkid, I should have said that raising the fork will increase total rotation but will decrease overswing. It appears you are equating total rotation with overswing, they are not the same thing at all.

    For a given clock, raising the fork will increase total rotation but decrease overswing (the amount the pendulum travels after lock in each direction of rotation); lowering the fork will decrease total rotation but increase overswing. Your experiment proved this exact statement.
     
  26. Randy Beckett

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    #376 Randy Beckett, Aug 24, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 24, 2013
    Re: two tone Becker

    The overswing difference you mention indicates to me your clock may not be in beat. I have found that it is best and easiest to set the beat is with only 1 turn of power on the mainspring. Most clocks will probably not run on this, but as the swing dies, it is very easy to determine which way to adjust. When adjusted this way it will sometimes appear to be slightly out of beat at full power, probably because of subtle differences in pallets, causing the EW teeth to "jump" off one pallet a little premature with power, but in perfect beat when the clock really needs it as the mainspring winds down.
    Concerning your fork position, I would expect that the EW should release in each direction at most about 1/2 turn pendulum rotation. If your fork has to be positioned high enough to require more rotation than this to prevent fluttering, I would suspicion a escapement adjustment is needed.
    All this discussion about locks, drops, and depthing adjustments are trying to establish only one thing which you can simply observe. At what point in the pendulum rotation does your impulse start and stop. A pendulum clock with a deadbeat should start and stop at equal distances from center, or bottom. A torsion clock has to be a little later in its cycle because the supension spring will recoil the fork and escapement slightly on release. Slowly rotate your pendulum by hand and observe when the impulse begins in relation to the center position of the pendulum. I adjust mine to begin as early as possible without the previously mentioned fork recoil backing the escapment to the pallet face upon EW release. The impulse usually starts just before or at center rotation.
     
  27. Randy Beckett

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    Re: two tone Becker

    Late correction

     
  28. MartinM

    MartinM Registered User

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    Re: two tone Becker

    An even easier way to get to the end point referenced,above is to do the adjustments without the suspension installed.
    To me, it's easier to see that pre-center point by simply watching where the pin goes into powered mode while manually actuating the anchor.
    If you get the escapement right, the pin will start into powered mode at the same point before center in both directions and ideally, travel the same amount from center to each release.
    Just make sure the clock is level when checking.
     
  29. Randy Beckett

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    Re: two tone Becker

    The way you describe is the easiest way I have found when adjusting the pallet width, or span. To loosen the bits so they will move with slight pressure when bottomed out against the EW, but tight enough to not move on their own.
     
  30. Covkid1945

    Covkid1945 Registered User

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    Re: two tone Becker

    Hi all, and good morning!
    An interesting discussion. I split "centering" the pallet fork pin and adjusting the beat into two separate exercises. I think that the way I had set it up when it first ran was very like what you describe: if I reduce the lock to the smallest amount that will reliably lock, and get it pretty much equal in both directions (not as easy as it sounds!) the clock will run, but has little power. If I increase the lock, it won't run at all. One thing I discovered is that, with the lock set to the minimum reliable amount, the beat setting becomes much more "sharp", actually making it easier to get the pendulum/suspension in beat.

    I have a couple of questions, if I may? Does anyone know that correct diameter of the escape wheel? I had to guess it, when I had a new one made, owing to the damage to the original resulting in its being reduced somewhat. Does anyone know if 17.34 mm seems right?

    And the fork. I'm not sure which way up it's supposed to be fitted - looking like an "L" or looking like a "P" on its side CW? That would have quite an effect on its height relative to the top clamp. I fitted it looking like an "L".

    John - I get what you're saying about the swing relative to the release of the pallets and overswing. When I read Terwilliger, that wasn't clear from the text. Thinking about it, raising the fork shouldn't alter the ratio of overswing to total swing, it just increases both in proportion.

    I'm going to dismantle this clock again and go through everything once more with a fine-toothed comb, to see if I can find any issues (I keep feeling that I've missed something); then set it up very carefully yet again - and Randy's comment on this is very helpful, many thanks, I've always tightened the pallet nibs each time I made an adjustment, which means having the pallet fork out each time I adjust anything - likewise MartinM's comment. Incidentally, it doesn't seem to want to flip over the pallet fork when it's pushed as MArtinM describes; yet the pallet fork is free. (In fact, the pallet fork is heavier one side than the other, so always falls the same way when released from centre.)

    These clocks can certainly test the patience! I must have spent near to 200 hours on this one so far, over the last 7 or 8 months. I've never had so much trouble from any clock before. Until I had a new EW made, I couldn't even get it to run at all.
     
  31. Randy Beckett

    Randy Beckett Registered User
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    #381 Randy Beckett, Aug 25, 2013
    Last edited: Aug 25, 2013
    Re: two tone Becker

    In my opinion, the location of the impulse in the pendulum rotation is the key to your clock running most efficient. The observed total pendulum rotation matters little. Don't be tempted to raise the fork position to merely increase observed rotation, as this is also robbing efficiency. Much better for your clock to run 400 days on 1 winding with 180 degrees rotation than 250 days with 270 degrees rotation.
     
  32. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    #382 John Hubby, Aug 25, 2013
    Last edited: Sep 9, 2013
    Re: two tone Becker

    Actually what you have said here is "not" correct. The overswing and total swing are INVERSELY related to each other as you raise and lower the fork. I already said it before, but remember that raising the fork increases total swing but DECREASES overswing, lowering the fork decreases total swing but INCREASES overswing. You can check this quickly by raising the fork and you will observe that overswing decreases each time you raise the fork, to the extent you can reduce the overswing to zero if you raise the fork high enough and all this time the total swing will be increasing as it MUST in order to unlock each pallet.

    The optimum fork position will be low enough to maximize overswing but not so low as to induce flutter. The total pendulum rotation at that point will seldom be more than 270 degrees, many times less than that especially with the Beckers.
     
  33. Covkid1945

    Covkid1945 Registered User

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    Re: two tone Becker


    Hi John:screwball:
    It's been a long time since I have visited the forum, I'm sorry about that, I've been extremely busy, been away from home for a time, but now I've returned I'm hoping to get back onto the Becker next week. (Got to do a computer rebuild first, though!!) Now I'm retired, I'm wondering how I ever found time to go to work.....!:confused: What you said makes much more sense now! Perhaps the most important statement though is "many times less than that especially with the Beckers"; it's very easy to be seduced by textbooks / rules of thumb into thinking that because it doesn't behave "as it should do", there must be something wrong, and it needs "correcting". I'll endeavour to let you know how I get on with it. BTW...Someone recently asked me if I would repair her 400 day clock. Guess what? I haven't quite stopped running yet!!!:eek::eek::eek: :D
     
  34. Andre Bauer

    Andre Bauer Registered User

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    #384 Andre Bauer, Jan 12, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2017
    Re: 400 Day Clock Indentification & Suspension Help

    Here is a GB Torsion for your fyi, as I have repaired, serviced, and sold locally Waterloo, Ontario, Canada. Received from antique shop in Strathroy, Ontario. No need for dating but for your record and charter 168.FYI came with a Becker Standard Saddle #5 in section 15 from Horolovar 400 day c.r.g. xyzzytom_206579 xyzzytom_206578 xyzzytom_206503
     
  35. Andre Bauer

    Andre Bauer Registered User

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    #385 Andre Bauer, Jan 12, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2017
    Re: 400 Day Clock Indentification & Suspension Help

    Also to the previous GB, I have a few more GB's. This one I purchased from USA, will be selling, once I service and clean it up. Same plate number (1207A from Horolovar 400 d.c. r. g.) as the previous one but with little differences from the other... Saddle is Becker Standard #7 in section 15, the marking on the bottom of the face "K.C. KY GERMANY" and the serial is "2174004".



    xyzzytom_206606





    xyzzytom_206607





    xyzzytom_206609




    xyzzytom_206608



    Any information on this this clock would appreciated, Thanks
     
  36. Andre Bauer

    Andre Bauer Registered User

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    #386 Andre Bauer, Jan 12, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2017
    Re: 400 Day Clock Indentification & Suspension Help

    As two the previous GB's , this is my keeper. Any information on this GB would appreciated but the pendulum seems to give a lot information. Underneath the pendulum is scratched- not inked "George Harris Brookland*Kent May 8th 1926" and the serial number on the back plate "2482132" the plate from Horolovar 400 d.c.r.g. 1206B- but the archor is stamped on the opposite side then shown in the book... roman numerals on face... with décor screwed pendulum and décor brass piece underneath the face... and has the special top suspension block...


    xyzzytom_206616 xyzzytom_206615 xyzzytom_206614 xyzzytom_206613

    Thanks in advance for your input,
     
  37. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    Re: 400 Day Clock Indentification & Suspension Help

    Andre, thanks much for posting your GB clocks here! You have put up some good ones and for sure the last one is a keeper. I'll be back later with more info, but for now here is dating and back plate confirmation:

    SN 2119334, Plate 1207A made 4th quarter 1909

    SN 2174004, Plate 1207A made 4th quarter 1910

    SN 2482132, Plate 1149 made 1st quarter 1924 (Note that Plate 1149 is identical to 1206B except for the location of the GB anchor logo)

    For the last one, the inscription date of May 8, 1926 is one more item of solid dating info. Being two years after the clock was made is not at all unusual, especially considering the clock was evidently sold in the UK. These clocks were relatively expensive at the time and could languish on the jeweler's shelfs for quite some time before being sold. My data for all Beckers show the least amount of time between my projected manufacturing date and the presentation date is three months, most are within six months to two years, and a few out to 3 or 4 years. Nonetheless, this is a wonderful piece of history.
     
  38. Andre Bauer

    Andre Bauer Registered User

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    Re: 400 Day Clock Indentification & Suspension Help

    Thank you John

    And you are right about the last. I forget to inform you, I did purchase the clock from England.
     
  39. england-5

    england-5 Newbie

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    Re: 400 Day Clock Indentification & Suspension Help

    attachment.jpg attachment.jpg attachment.jpg Hi, new to the board, but like the idea of recording GB serial numbers for the benefit of posterity. I have a mahogany 4 glass GB Anniversary clock, serial number 1801217 (disc pendulum scribed with the same to the base), which I believe dates it to c1904 (using other serial numbers posted on this thread). Of note, and not something I have seen recorded elsewhere, the case is stamped 800 both on the base and cover (I have seen another example with a number stamped the same way). Would this likely refer to a production run? and is it something done by GB, or by an external case maker?
     

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  40. Andre Bauer

    Andre Bauer Registered User

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    #390 Andre Bauer, Jan 23, 2014
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 15, 2017
    Re: 400 Day Clock Indentification & Suspension Help

    Hi John

    Here is my new acquisition (likes like it went a couple rounds a heavy hitter), was purchased in the states. And this was the GB, I was thinking of using to making bandstand Louvre but need I more time and homework.


    But could you help me id this GB. Reading your earlier threads, I date the movement 1911-1912 plate 1207A SN 2281230 but with previous threads this 4 ball GB pendulum holes in the arms and the adjustment on the bottom base has a screw in it but can be adjusted without loosing the screw...... in the threads you have said this a second batch pendulum made in or around 1926...... Were you said to look for the SN on the underside of the circler cover of the pendulum. "478"- dot engraved .... do I have a frankn GB baby? xyzzytom_208194


    xyzzytom_208196



    xyzzytom_208195

    Thanks in advance John,

    Andy
     
  41. Andre Bauer

    Andre Bauer Registered User

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    Re: 400 Day Clock Indentification & Suspension Help

    Sorry John,


    Reviewed the threads to check the SN dates on the movement..... it should be around 1913-1914. You posted the closest photos of SN # in your thread#235 (your own clock?) but didn't give the date SN 2281155 , 75 clocks before mine.

    Regards,
    Andy
     
  42. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    Re: 400 Day Clock Indentification & Suspension Help

    Andy, thanks for posting. You do have a marriage, the clock was made in 4th quarter 1913 and the pendulum was first introduced in 1916. However, having the serial number 478 scribed shows it was made in 2nd half 1925. Actually this is the first version of the GB 4-Ball which was still being produced at least to the end of 1926, and the one in the Repair Guide (pendulum No. 34) is the second version first introduced in early1926. Here's a side-by-side comparison:

    2281230 4B1 Pend.jpg 1108 4-B #2 Pend.jpg Yours is the one to the left, the one to the right was made in 1926. Note the significant differences:

    >> The cap at the top of the pendulum is deeper and flat-sided for the second model.

    >> The pendulum ball arms are pinned lower and ride on the center adjusting piece which moves them out or in as it is screwed up or down, much more precise than the lever arrangement at the top of the first model. It can also be adjusted without removing the pendulum from the clock as is usually required for the first model.

    >> The adjusting device doesn't have a set screw but does have an indicating pointer (not seen in the photo) and marked graduations around the bottom end so you can calibrate the rate adjustment. Note the center shaft is threaded externally above the adjusting device; in the first model the threads are internal.

    You mentioned that you don't have to loosen the screw to adjust the time on yours; I suspect the screw is either sheared off or not tightened to where it locks on the center shaft.

    Back to the movement manufacturing date, the No. 8 upper bracket with built-in beat adjustment was patented in March 1913 (lowest serial number to date 2271982), so these don't show up before that time. This bracket was intermixed with bracket No. 7 from 1913 through 1916, but after WWI starting in 1919 only the No. 8 bracket was used. The only exception was the introduction and use of bracket No. 6 with the GB lantern pinion movements in early 1926. Interestingly the first clock I have documented with lantern pinions also was fitted with the first bracket No. 6 and the first second model 4-Ball.

    As far as using the movement from this clock to put together a Louvre (bandstand) model, it is too early chronologically for that to be correct. The first GB Louvre models recorded so far appeared in 1922, serial number 2441532. They were not particularly popular until 1925, after which many of them have been documented right through 1932 when Freiburg was closed.
     
  43. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    #393 John Hubby, Jan 24, 2014
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2014
    Re: 400 Day Clock Indentification & Suspension Help

    England-5, welcome to the NAWCC Message Board and thanks very much for posting your inquiry and the photos of your GB clock.

    You have one of the early examples of this mahogany 4-glass wood lift-off top model No. 480 clocks. This model was made from 1903 through 1913 based on my database entries. You are correct that your clock was made in 1904 based on the serial number, and has Plate 1195A. Your pendulum having the matching serial number to the movement shows they started life together so it can be said that your clock is completely original.

    The "8oo" stamp on the case appears on all these that I have documented. I don't know the significance since that isn't the model number, I suspect it may be a case maker's number since I have found the numbers '2oo" and "4oo" stamped in the same manner on other wood case GB models. I haven't been recording that in my data so I'm not certain which other models have these number but that's easy enough to find out.

    These are beautiful clocks and you have an excellent example, congratulations!
     
  44. ivancooke

    ivancooke Registered User

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    Re: two tone Becker

    For your info John, I have two of these GB wooden cased clocks. One has number 80 stamped in a similar location , and the other one stamped 10.
    I don't see much of a corolation.


    Ivan.
     
  45. ivancooke

    ivancooke Registered User

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    G Becker with unusual 2 3/4" raised silvered dial.

    This is the first of these type of dials I have seen on a GB.
    It is shaped like the center of GB's long carriage clock type dial.
    Serial number for Johns records : 1946330, also scribed on pendulum base.




    Ivan.
     

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  46. Jwright

    Jwright Registered User

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    Re: two tone Becker

    My GB Wooden case has a "0" stamped on it in the same location.

    John
     
  47. Costaniuc

    Costaniuc New Member

    May 31, 2014
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    Re: two tone Becker

    IMG_1950.jpg

    Hello i have this Gustav Baker clock in my family for a long time: Serial number is 1685035 - all parts are there . I would like to know more about it - what year is made? how many of this model where made and what is it`s current value. Thank you very much.
     

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  48. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    Re: G Becker with unusual 2 3/4" raised silvered dial.

    Ivan, thanks for posting. Somehow I missed this when you put it up, but quite a nice clock made in 4th quarter 1906 based on the serial number. This dial is unusual compared to all the other round dials used by GB, and from my data was used only in 1906 for about nine months. Your clock makes six of these documented over that period (Q2 thru Q4 1906).

    The missing suspension guard would be the first version used by GB, with the top end folded over underneath the upper bracket. Here is a photo of one that is the exact same model and dial, serial number 1946261 made just before yours:

    1946261 Rear Qtr Lt.jpg
     
  49. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
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    #399 John Hubby, May 31, 2014
    Last edited: May 31, 2014
    Re: two tone Becker

    Costaniuc, welcome to the NAWCC Message Board and thanks for posting your inquiry and the photos of your GB clock.

    Based on the serial number, your clock was made at the beginning of 1903, and from my records was in the third production batch of these clocks following their introduction in 2nd quarter 1902.

    This back plate of the movement for your clock is Plate 1191 from the Horolovar Repair Guide, and was used from the first production in 1902 for only one year, to mid-1903. During that time, my estimate of production of the movement used for your model is approximately 1,400 clocks in total with the same specifications. Your exact model appears to have been about 90% of the total production, the other clocks made during that period had a rectangular silver dial. For information, over 70,000 400-Day clocks were made by GB from 1902 through the end of 1932 when the Freiburg factory was closed.

    I have some questions for you:
    > Is there a serial number written on the bottom of your pendulum disc? It may be on inside rim of the disc or on the flat part in the center.

    > Does your clock have a serial number stamped on the front plate underneath the dial?

    > Is there a GB anchor logo stamped on the front plate underneath the dial?

    > Is there any decoration screwed to the front of the movement underneath the dial?

    A photo of the dial and front of the clock from straight ahead will document the answer to these questions.

    With regard to value, our rules do not permit discussion of that in our education forums. There is a Clock Value forum where you can get information for a small fee. We will look forward to the additional photos.
     
  50. Costaniuc

    Costaniuc New Member

    May 31, 2014
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    Re: two tone Becker

    Thank you for your answers it was very kind of you , I will post new pictures that i hope will answer your questions.
    IMG_1957.jpg IMG_1958.jpg IMG_1959.jpg IMG_1960.jpg
     

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