Post Your Gustav Becker 400-Day CLocks Here

Discussion in '400-Day & Atmos' started by John Arrowood, May 21, 2002.

  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.
  1. ivancooke

    ivancooke Registered User

    Mar 3, 2009
    327
    0
    16
    Self employed Clerk of works in the water industry
    Banbridge, Northern Ireland.
    Re: Gustav Becker 400 Day

    Excellent job Eric.




    Ivan.
     
  2. Jeff Fawcett

    Jeff Fawcett Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Apr 27, 2011
    36
    2
    8
    incomplete Beckers;help please

    I recently acquired 2 incomplete Becker 400 day clocks. The first is a disc pendulum clock with serial number 2249928 on the movement and the pendulum. It is missing the suspension cover, decorative finials(?) on top of the front plate and and the decorative plate below the dial. The GB and Medaille stamps are visible on the back plate ( the former very clear, the latter less so).
    The second clock is stamped Gustav Becker Germany with the number 324 at the base of the back plate. It has the Becker overhead suspension - but without the attachment for the top of the suspension wire and is also missing the fork; the pendulum is missing but it does have a suspension cover that does not seem to be transferable to the above #2249928.
    The back plates of the two clocks appear to me to be identical ( I am no expert) and the only difference between the two movements is that serial number 2249928 has a circular hole in the mounting base plate and that in clock 324 is rectangular.
    Can anyone tell me the age of the clocks ( I have the Tewilliger volume but understand some of its information may have been updated somewhere), where might I get missing parts. Any other comments will be most welcome.

    Thanks, Jeff.
     

    Attached Files:

  3. lesbradley

    lesbradley Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 20, 2007
    1,036
    4
    38
    IT analyst
    Fairford, England
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: incomplete Beckers;help please

    Hi Jeff, welcome to the forum. You have found the right place for your answers.

    Clock 1 was made approximately 1912(John Hubby can be more specific). Regrettably it does not have the original base, pillars and finials. A photo is attached of the correct type.

    Clock 2 was made very shorttly after the Junghans takeover. I have forgotten the date, but is sometime in the late 1920s. It would have had pendulum 34 from the guide.

    Sourcing parts for these clocks is difficult. The only source for older parts is Chris Nimon of Horolovar. Do a search for either in this forum and you will come up with contact details, however I think you will be very lucky if he can help.

    As for the base, finials, suspension guard etc for clock 1, they do occasionally turn up in job lots at auction houses and on Ebay, but you will pay a premium. Same goes for the pendulum for clock 2. You will probably find that you will need to get the missing top suspension parts made for you.

    Standard suspension blocks, springs and forks are readily available from specialist suppliers. We would need to know your location for the best recommendation.
     

    Attached Files:

  4. DieteR

    DieteR Registered User

    Sep 18, 2008
    135
    2
    18
    Male
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: incomplete Beckers;help please

    Hello

    the attachment for the top of the suspension wire

    is offered at ebay (a lot available)

    Regards
     
  5. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Life Member

    Sep 7, 2000
    12,075
    163
    63
    The Woodlands, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #105 John Hubby, Nov 5, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 5, 2011
    Re: incomplete Beckers;help please

    Jeff, thanks for posting your inquiry including the photos. This first clock has Plate 1207A from the Horolovar Repair Guide and was made in 1912 as Les has already indicated. The base and pillars appear to be from a JUF or Kienzle clock, you will need to hunt around to find an original set that will look like the parts on the clock that Les posted. The missing finials appear to have just been removed and not broken off, here again you may be able to find a parts clock that can provide the needed pieces. The missing suspension guard will look like the one on the clock I've posted below, these aren't so easy to find but just need to keep hunting. The decorative plate does appear to have been on the movement originally, sometimes these clocks were sold without that "extra". Replacements are avaiable from Horolovar, you need the "A" version with Rose, Shamrock, and Thistle.
    This clock has Plate 1207, which was introduced in 1923 and used at least through 1927 after Gebrüder Junghans took over GB operations at the end of 1925. When they did that they stopped using the GB circular logo, Medaille d'Or, and the previous GB serial numbering system. A new series of serial numbers was introduced starting with "1" and your clock was the 324th one of those made in 1926. To confuse things they started several clock types with the same new serial number series, including Westminster chimes table clocks, weight driven wall clocks, grandfather clocks, etc. I have documented several duplicate serial numbers among these types of clocks.

    Everything on this clock appears original although you didn't show the suspension guard. Actually, the same guard is used for both clocks so I'm curious why the one from this clock didn't fit the earlier one. For info I'm also posting a clock made the same year as yours showing the correct suspension guard, as you should be able to see it is identical to the one with the first clock.

    The pendulum for your clock will likely be a GB 4-Ball as Les mentions. In reviewing my data, all the clocks with the large floral porcelain dial and special crown as per your clock is fitted with a 4-Ball pendulum. These are not easy to find, try Horolovar and keep on the lookout in other venues. Interestingly, this model is unique regarding the pendulum since about 85% of the clocks in my data made in 1926 had a disc pendulum, about half those with the same pendulum as your first clock, and the balance had a pendulum like the one in your first clock but with decorative screws on the gallery discs, one at the top and bottom of each pillar in the gallery.

    The upper suspension block for this clock isn't easy to find although Dieter mentions it is available on eBay. I did a search and couldn't find any, perhaps he can give us a link to a "Buy it Now" seller so it could be found. I know one member who is having these made for sale and will be announcing that shortly, but not quite ready yet to release the info. As soon as that is available I'll post here for info.
     

    Attached Files:

  6. Jeff Fawcett

    Jeff Fawcett Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Apr 27, 2011
    36
    2
    8
    Re: incomplete Beckers;help please

    Les, DieteR and John,
    Thank you for all your comments and advice. DieteR – I did not find any suspension parts on E-Bay yesterday – can you give me more information? John – I have now been able to fit the 324 suspension guard on the 2249928 clock by moving the fork “forward” on the suspension spring, almost to the limit; it now moves freely but the anchor pin is nestled very deeply in the fork; is this a correct placement( photos attached)? Also, when the locking device on the bottom of the suspension guard is fully extended, it is about a half inch above the lower block of the suspension spring and thus serves no purpose; should I be shortening the spring by over half an inch(photo attached)? The pendulum base is now only 1/8 inch above the clock base. Finally, for now, would it be a real no-no to transfer the overhead suspension from the 324 clock to the disc pendulum clock if I can get the missing parts for the upper suspension block and overhead suspension?
    Les –I am located in Toronto, Canada; do you know of a local parts supplier here? I have used Perrin Inc for many general items but they are not big on older clock parts.
    Thanks again to all three,
    Jeff.
     

    Attached Files:

  7. Jeff Fawcett

    Jeff Fawcett Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Apr 27, 2011
    36
    2
    8
    Re: incomplete Beckers;help please

    Les, DieteR and John,
    I have just found a source for the Becker upper suspension block through E-Bay ( searched G Becker 400 day clock parts). A seller in Sydney Australia has made some for sale.
    Jeff.
     
  8. lesbradley

    lesbradley Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 20, 2007
    1,036
    4
    38
    IT analyst
    Fairford, England
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: incomplete Beckers;help please

    I am not aware of a specialist supplier in Canada. Stateside there are Horolovar, who I would recommend above anyone else, or Timesavers.com. In the UK Meadows and Passmore will also supply overseas.

    Moving the suspension from the later clock to the older clock would be completely innapropriate in my view. The parts were not available when the older clock was produced.
     
  9. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Life Member

    Sep 7, 2000
    12,075
    163
    63
    The Woodlands, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: incomplete Beckers;help please

    Jeff, thanks for the additional photos. The way you have the fork mounted is OK, no problem. However, to enable full adjustment of overswing you need to turn the fork over so the "flag" that is now to the bottom will be to the top. What that will do is provide room to raise and lower the fork to adjust for flutter and to increase or decrease overswing.
    The suspension spring should be a length that results in the locking device to secure it by means of the pin in the lower block, with about 1-2 mm left in the locking device slot. That will put the pendulum about 5/8 inch above the base, however this base is not correct in the first place and the GB base if installed will leave the pendulum about 1/4 to 3/8 inch above the base. The clock is going to run about 7-10% faster with the shorter spring which means you may have to replace with a thinner one or you may have to thin the one you have to bring the clock to time.
    Les is correct regarding this. The adjustable upper bracket was patented in March 1913 so would not have existed at the time your clock was made, we actively discourage "marrying" incorrect parts.
    Jeff, pleased to see you found the fellow selling the upper block assembly. The base, columns, and movement support plate will have to be found from a donor clock unless Horolovar might have them or one of our users has them available.
     
  10. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
    NAWCC Member Deceased

    Nov 4, 2002
    40,850
    140
    63
    Male
    deceased
    Whitby, Ontario, Canada
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: incomplete Beckers;help please

    Jeff, Perrins is OK for standard stock parts, but their suspension units (not the springs) are of suspicious quality in my experience, although Timesavers has the same problem in not using Horolovar parts. You will find few stock parts for antique clocks, other than basics like mainsprings and such.
     
  11. Jeff Fawcett

    Jeff Fawcett Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Apr 27, 2011
    36
    2
    8
    Re: incomplete Beckers;help please

    Thank you John Les DieteR and Harold for your advice. I guess I will keep looking but would be very pleased to hear fro manyone who may have the parts I need.
    Jeff.
     
  12. DieteR

    DieteR Registered User

    Sep 18, 2008
    135
    2
    18
    Male
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: incomplete Beckers;help please

    Hello

    special Becker UPPER SUSPENSION BLOCK

    Here is the number on ebay, where You will get (Date Nov.7.2011)

    search for 120798990784

    the seller is brooklet_95

    it looks fine
     
  13. damiangotch

    damiangotch Registered User

    May 3, 2011
    52
    0
    0
    Yorkshire UK
    Country Flag:
    A Pair of Gustav Beckers

    Some photos for the database on a pair of Gustav Beckers I have just restored.

    Serial number 2136159 with a silver face estimated to be approx 1910? with the slotted upper suspension bracket.

    Serial number 2395262 with the beat adjuster approx 1918? with Roman numerals. Pendulum 2174209

    Best regards,
    Damian
     

    Attached Files:

  14. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 25, 2010
    2,204
    91
    48
    Retired Avionics Technician
    Mascoutah, IL
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: A Pair of Gustav Beckers

    Very nice!

    Eric
     
  15. Harry Hopkins

    Harry Hopkins Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 16, 2011
    543
    37
    28
    Retired Instrument Technician
    Mason, IL
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: A Pair of Gustav Beckers

    They look Great! Thanks for sharing.

    Harry Hopkins
    Mason, IL
     
  16. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Life Member

    Sep 7, 2000
    12,075
    163
    63
    The Woodlands, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #116 John Hubby, Nov 25, 2011
    Last edited: Nov 25, 2011
    Re: A Pair of Gustav Beckers

    Damian, super job restoring these two clocks! Based on their serial numbers, the first clock was made in 1910 as you guessed, but the second clock was made in 1921. The Roman number dial is unusual for Becker 400-Days, only about 5% of all the ones in my database have that feature.

    Also, thanks for providing the serial number from the second clock pendulum, I've added that to my database with a note where it is now. It was made in 1910 like the first clock. I do need to mention that it is "correct" for the clock it is with; at the time the clock was made they were using only two versions of the disc pendulum, this one I classify as No. 23E, and one with decorative screws around the gallery discs but with no tapered cap on top of the upper disc, that I classify as No. 23D.

    Keep up the great work! :clap::clap:
     
  17. instarclock

    instarclock Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Mar 23, 2009
    416
    0
    16
    Galveston
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: A Pair of Gustav Beckers

    Both are beautifully restored clocks. I can't imagine they looked any better the day the original owners took them home from the store.
    Congratulations on a job well done.
    -Rt
     
  18. damiangotch

    damiangotch Registered User

    May 3, 2011
    52
    0
    0
    Yorkshire UK
    Country Flag:
    Re: A Pair of Gustav Beckers

    Hi Guys,
    Thanks for the feedback, the 2136159 has its original pendulum. It is interesting how the pendulum construction slightly changed over the years, to make it cheaper I guess. I have found though that they sometimes need a thicker wire than 0.102, particularly the BHA I have, I tried with a few pendulum's and they all ran slow, I ended up using a 0.114 thinned down to suit. Most are right on the limit with the standard 0.104, has anyone else seen this?

    It is a great hobby and remarkable that these clocks run so well after 100 years!

    Damian
     
  19. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Life Member

    Sep 7, 2000
    12,075
    163
    63
    The Woodlands, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: A Pair of Gustav Beckers

    The pendulum design variations for Becker discs have all been documented to be made before 1910, with the exception of two variants that were added in the late 1920's after Junghans took over GB operations. There was considerable overlap in the years 1905 to 1910 with six variations appearing in those years. In order of first appearance based on serial numbers I've labeled them 23A, 23B, 23BB, 23C, 23D, and 23E. The progression of changes was definitely toward making them less expensive to manufacture, with the first one having a disc in which the bottom and top are brazed together with a lead-filled annular ring on the bottom side, gallery disc cap, and assembly screws to hold the pillars in place. The last (and most common version by far) has a spun brass cap and stamped bottom cover for the disc, with a removable lead ring inside, no gallery disc cap and no holding screws for the pillars. The final two versions include 23F which is almost identical to 23E but the gallery discs are smaller in diameter and the disc made of thinner brass; and 23G which has no gallery but the disc identical to 23F.

    Regarding the suspension spring, many Beckers require the use of the 0.114 mm (0.0045 inch) spring that needs to be thinned to work properly. I agree that the 0.102 is marginal, it's too bad that Horolovar don't make a 0.0042 (0.107 mm) as that would be about perfect for Beckers.
     
  20. Ralph

    Ralph Registered User
    NAWCC Member Sponsor

    Jan 22, 2002
    4,662
    61
    48
    Country Flag:
    Re: A Pair of Gustav Beckers

    Yes, I just discovered exactly that on a recent disk pendulum suspension replacement. I wish I had asked. ;)

    Ralph
     
  21. Tony10Clocks

    Tony10Clocks Registered User

    Aug 10, 2010
    1,641
    6
    38
    Northant's
    Country Flag:
    Re: A Pair of Gustav Beckers

    Excellent Damien, superb job well done
    Tony
     
  22. damiangotch

    damiangotch Registered User

    May 3, 2011
    52
    0
    0
    Yorkshire UK
    Country Flag:
    Re: A Pair of Gustav Beckers

    John,
    Thanks for the detailed info on the Pendulum design, I have a number of them, 2136159 is the common type, but the BHA serial number 1914569 has a different design, this has a two part disk that is folded and crimped (or possibly brazed) but with the standard gallery without the fixing screws. Photos of two types attached.

    Best regards,
    Damian
     

    Attached Files:

  23. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Life Member

    Sep 7, 2000
    12,075
    163
    63
    The Woodlands, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: A Pair of Gustav Beckers

    Damian, thanks for posting. The first pendulum 2136159 is the "standard" pendulum 23E disc design, with the bottom cover fitting inside the upper disc shell. That design is typical of pendulums 23C, 23D, 23E, 23F, and 23G.

    The BHA pendulum with the bottom being a complete spun or pressed brass shell fitting into a spun brass upper cover is actually the same as the 23B design (bottom shells are the same) but the top part of of the 23B is turned from a solid brass plate and the outer edge is impressed with a rope or corded pattern, whereas yours is like the top of a 23E with a thin brass top part with no beading or cording on the outer rim. I have seen one other example of this design but had not classified it since it was significantly different from the others. This design will likely need to be classified as a new variant of 23E.

    I would appreciate if you could show photos of the disassembled disc to view its interior, how the bottom cover is held in place, etc.
     
  24. damiangotch

    damiangotch Registered User

    May 3, 2011
    52
    0
    0
    Yorkshire UK
    Country Flag:
    Re: A Pair of Gustav Beckers

    John,

    Wow this is very interesting indeed,

    I have a hypothesis -

    It is 1907 and GB have been approached by BHA to supply clocks for import into USA. This will reduce the profit margin so they need to reduce the costs. They are still using the expensive turned disc and the ornate gallery with the fixing screws and so design a new pendulum. The sample batch (including 1914569) use a new pendulum made as two part spun brass.
    The lower part has space for the lead weight and a flat steel plate, the upper part has shallow rim which when assembled with the disk weight and the lower shell is folded under to permanently fix the parts together.
    The gallery is changed to use a central bar and holes for the turned pillars.

    The samples have the GB logos removed to avoid confusion with the existing clocks and BHA stamped on the plate.

    Later by the time the production qty is supplied the complex crimping has been removed and the two half shell simply overlap and fixed with the central screw.
    At some point also the adjuster weights are screwed together rather than turned from a single piece. The BHA logo has been incorporated but the machined out GB logos are continued until the qty's justify modified plates.

    Looking at the photos I have taken, it is clear the disk cannot be separated, the upper part is noticeably thicker brass than the later version. The diameter of the upper section of the later design is larger to overlap the lower part. The thickness of the outer ring is larger on the old design as I believe it caters for the thicker brass and the lip of the lower section.

    The photos should be self explanatory the serial 2136158 is labelled 'Later' and the BHA 1914569 'BHA'

    Not sure if your data can support or contradict this idea?

    Best regards,
    Damian
     

    Attached Files:

  25. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Life Member

    Sep 7, 2000
    12,075
    163
    63
    The Woodlands, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: A Pair of Gustav Beckers

    Damian, the pendulum on your early BHA is I believe a prototype that preceeded the manufacture of pendulum 23E, which as you propose may well have been introduced based on a request from BHA. In digging through my archives I found one other of these than yours on a clock made very shortly after yours but not for BHA. The "final" design for No. 23E came immediately after that and appeared on several regular GB clocks before showing up "in quantity" on BHA clocks.

    For this design, here are the serial numbers and dates:

    1914569, for BHA: Prototype 23E, made mid-second quarter 1906
    1914591, regular GB: Prototype 23E, made mid-second quarter 1906
    1914620, regular GB: Final design 23E, made mid-second quarter 1906

    The differences between the prototype and the final design are as per your photos. The prototype has a complete bottom shell that fits into a thin upper cover that is crimped onto the bottom shell. The final design has a stamped/spun bottom cover with flanged sides, that fits closely within a spun upper shell with side flanges reaching to the bottom of the disc. Both have a steel disc the fits just under the upper shell which provides stiffness to the disc, and a lead ring to provide the peripheral mass needed for good rate control of the clock.

    Timewise, it appears that BHA contacted GB early in 1906 with a proposal for them to make clocks for BHA with the BHA logo on the back plate. By the way, these were for import into the UK and not to the USA. Your clock is one of the prototypes that was made for BHA, with the GB logos milled out and the prototype "inexpensive" pendulum. It is notable that the final design would have been easier and less expensive to fabricate than the prototype.

    After this, the first "production versions" of the BHA clocks started with serial number 1957999 made at the beginning of 1907 and using the final version of 23E. Of interest, that pendulum continued in production until the end of 1932 when 400-Day clock production was stopped.

    With regard to when each design was introduced and how long it was used, my data show the following in chronological order:

    23A: Second quarter 1902, last used 1907
    23B: Second quarter 1905. last used 1910
    23E: Second quarter 1906, last used 1932
    23C: Fourth quarter 1907, last used 1913
    23D: Second quarter 1909, last used 1932
    23F: Mid-1923, last used 1932
    23G: Third quarter 1928, last used 1932

    At the time I first had identified each version (almost 15 years ago) I had expected to find progressively less expensive construction and the data I had at the time confirmed that. As more extensive data was compiled it became evident that pendulum No. 23E was made earlier than 23D or 23C, but the connection with BHA wasn't evident yet. In fact, since the disc part of all models made after 23E was developed are essentially identical (the edge of model No. 23C has ribbing, the others are smooth) I will leave the designations as they are for the time being since the numbers of each is very large. However, before I get to actual publication I'll need to restructure my database to put them in the correct order and tell the story connected to their development.
     
  26. damiangotch

    damiangotch Registered User

    May 3, 2011
    52
    0
    0
    Yorkshire UK
    Country Flag:
    Re: A Pair of Gustav Beckers

    John,

    Thank you it is great to be able to contribute to your already extensive knowledge. Is it best to move these postings to the BHA thread if this is something you can do?

    This is one clock that I will be keeping as it has so much history.

    I will keep a watch for other unusual clocks!

    Damian
     
  27. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Life Member

    Sep 7, 2000
    12,075
    163
    63
    The Woodlands, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: A Pair of Gustav Beckers

    Damian, since the discussion covers pendulums for both BHA and the standard GB clocks, I'll leave the originals here and copy the relevant posts to the BHA thread so that info is included there.

    Thanks for your interest, do keep posting anything of interest that you find.
     
  28. Nighteditor

    Nighteditor New Member

    Dec 21, 2011
    3
    0
    0
    Re: Post Your Gustav Becker clocks here

    Hi just joined,
    I have just been left this clock but have found no info on it at all it is a gustav becker serial 2005790 anniversary torsion clock im told, all the ones i can find on the web have more than one ball this only has one, pardon the pun...:confused: any info would be grateful,
    cheers
     

    Attached Files:

  29. lesbradley

    lesbradley Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 20, 2007
    1,036
    4
    38
    IT analyst
    Fairford, England
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: Post Your Gustav Becker clocks here

    You have a great, rare and unusual 400 day clock c.1906/7. I am sure the moderators will move it to the 400 day forum where it will receive the correct atttention and comments.
     
  30. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Life Member

    Sep 7, 2000
    12,075
    163
    63
    The Woodlands, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: Post Your Gustav Becker clocks here

    Nighteditor, welcome to the NAWCC Message Board and thanks for posting the photos of your clock and your inquiry. As Les mentions, this is an unusual and relatively rare Gustav Becker model, made about fourth quarter 1907 based on the serial number. It is illustrated in the 1912 GB catalog published by our member Victor Tang (www.any400day.com) as Model 494. I've attached a scan of the catalog illustration below.

    The pendulum is shown in the Horolovar Repair Guide as No. 29, and is exclusive to Becker clocks. I will appreciate if you could check underneath the pendulum disc to see if there is a serial number scratched or written there; if it matches the movement serial number you can safely assume that it is original to the clock.

    I will be copying your posts to the 400-Day Forum as Les suggests, it will gather much more attention there.
     

    Attached Files:

  31. Nighteditor

    Nighteditor New Member

    Dec 21, 2011
    3
    0
    0
    Re: Gustav Becker Model 494

    Hi,
    Thanks for the quick reply, my wife and i have just looked under the pendulum disc and the number looks like its been engraved on it, the number is 2005790 and what looks like a fancy letter p in front of the number.... i have just taken a picture of it written on a sticky note as near as i can get to it, i tried with the camera but the flash wipes it out, it looks like a letter p and and didnt have enough room to join it at the bottom, hope this helps.
    cheers
     

    Attached Files:

  32. GBDickie

    GBDickie Registered User

    Dec 30, 2011
    5
    0
    0
    St. Albans
    Country Flag:
    Another Gustav Becker for the database

    Hi,

    This is another Gustav Becker, very similar to one in this thread https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?81256-A-Pair-of-Gustav-Beckers . Serial number is 2394604 on backplate and pendulum

    My first 400 day clock, it was a Christmas present to myself and arrived in a non-working, incorrectly assembled state with the usual broken suspension. After a few days reading of this excellent forum and a bit of work, I gave it a very quick clean and inspection, put a new suspension on it, only to be rewarded with a complete, clean, non-working clock! It runs for about 8 hours, losing 6 minutes per hour.
    Before I dismantle it for a more thorough overhaul, I have a number of questions you may be able to answer:

    1. The 6 minutes per hour time loss is, I assume, down to the suspension spring thickness. It is currently fitted with the Repair Guide recommended 0.102mm and according to other threads I will have more luck with a slightly thicker one.
    2. I could only get the beat set by turning the top suspension mount several degrees off central. Investigation revealed that the anchor pin could be moved relative to the anchor and the anchor pin mounting bush was (albeit very tight) only a friction fit on the anchor shaft. I need to re-align the anchor pin so what should I take as the reference plane, is it the anchor arms or the pallet tips?
    3. The knurled beat adjusting knob is missing. I notice that the hole for it in the adjusting lever is significantly bigger than its fixing hole in the mounting bracket. Does the adjusting knob have a "shoulder" to fit the hole, or is it just a very sloppy fit?
    4. This clock has three small holes in the front plate below the dial, identical to the clock in the thread above. Are these for extra embelishments that the factory have left off, or are they just lost?

    Thanks for any help in advance, these clocks are a nice change from the norm.

    Cheers, Richard
     

    Attached Files:

  33. jkfabulos

    jkfabulos Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Aug 21, 2001
    895
    15
    18
    EBAY Bandstand disc pendulum

    Just closed. Ebay #180793140605. Looks to be extra fancy design.
     
  34. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Life Member

    Sep 7, 2000
    12,075
    163
    63
    The Woodlands, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #134 John Hubby, Jan 17, 2012
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2012
    Re: EBAY Bandstand disc pendulum

    Jim, thanks for the connection. This is a Gustav Becker Louvre model and relatively scarce to find. The main thing about the pendulum is that the gallery discs are thicker and larger in diameter than the "normal" GB pendulum with these characteristics. This is what I would normally classify as the 23D pendulum (if it had the "standard" size gallery discs) with decorative screws on the edge of the gallery discs, no cover cap on top of the upper disc, and a relatively plain spun brass disc shell that was used for the 23D, 23E, and 23F models. I am footnoting it in my data to see if others show up in due course.

    I've asked the seller for a serial number so it can be dated, however the back plate (Plate 1207) is so far documented to have been used starting in 1923 and continuing through 1932. I would favor an earlier date because of the disc pendulum, the later (post-1926) models usually were fitted with a GB 4-Ball pendulum.
     
  35. etmb61

    etmb61 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Oct 25, 2010
    2,204
    91
    48
    Retired Avionics Technician
    Mascoutah, IL
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: EBAY Bandstand disc pendulum

    That one must be pretty darn uncommon.
     
  36. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Life Member

    Sep 7, 2000
    12,075
    163
    63
    The Woodlands, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #136 John Hubby, Jan 17, 2012
    Last edited: Jan 17, 2012
    Re: Another Gustav Becker for the database

    Richard, firstly a warm welcome to the NAWCC Message Board and congratulations on your first 400-Day clock. You picked a good one for starters! Let's see if we can answer most of your questions, and we will have a couple ourselves for clarification purposes.
    Based on the serial number, your clock was made in first half 1921. It is a little unusual in having the Roman numeral dial, less than 5% of all the 400-Day clocks in my data have Roman numbers. The pendulum having the same number as on the movement indicates it is original to the clock. My data show that around 85-90% of all GB disc pendulums have matching numbers to the movements, and about 95% have a number although in 5-10% of the cases it may not match.
    You are correct, a thicker spring will be needed. The next thicker, however, is 0.114 mm and will need some thinning to bring the clock to time. One of these days I'll convince Horolovar to make a 0.104 or 0.105 mm so the Becker clocks can be more easily brought to time.
    Excellent observation. The anchor pin should be pointing vertically when the anchor is resting on a flat level surface, so the key is adjustmen to the tips of the pallets. This is especially important if the clock is already running, the first rule in working on 400-Day clocks is "DON'T MESS WITH THE ESCAPEMENT!" Only if you have exhausted all other remedies is this necessary.
    The large hole is there for a purpose, the knurled knob has a shoulder that fits neatly (but not tightly) into the hole. That allows you to move the adjusting pointer side to side in either direction before locking it in place with the adjusting screw and the knurled knob.
    The center hole evidently was for registration of the plate drilling machine. The two small holes are normally threaded, these are for the attachment of a decor piece that was an optional extra. There were three designs that are all illustrated on page 230 of the Horolovar 400-Day Clock Repair Guide. Your clock would be fitted with decor "B", which was first introduced in early 1920.
    Richard, thanks again for posting your clock. Actually I have only one request as mentioned above:

    1) Could you post a photo of the complete clock, both front and back? That will help in documenting exactly what features your clock has. For example, the present photos don't clearly show the base and there were two differen designs being used at the time your clock was made.
     
  37. Ray Fanchamps

    Ray Fanchamps Deceased
    Deceased

    Aug 24, 2000
    1,718
    2
    0
    N'er do well......
    LLareggub
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: EBAY Bandstand disc pendulum

    gb400.jpg

    Maybe I need to throw the ones I have on ebay.......my recent sales have been in the tank.
     
  38. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Life Member

    Sep 7, 2000
    12,075
    163
    63
    The Woodlands, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #138 John Hubby, Jan 17, 2012
    Last edited: Jan 18, 2012
    Re: EBAY Bandstand disc pendulum

    Ray, I have to agree, no idea why that one went for what it did especially considering its condition and no dome. What is the serial number of your clock? Would like to add it to my database if not already documented.

    The one that sold has serial number 130 placing it made in early 1926 right after the Junghans takeover that resulted in the previous serial numbering system to be discontinued and new series started for each of several types of clocks including the 400-Days, Westminster Chimes clocks, some hall clocks, and weight driven wall clocks. This new system started at or near "1" for each type of clock and resulted in duplicate serial numbers being used for multiple clocks. I have documented several pairs of duplicates so far.
     
  39. GBDickie

    GBDickie Registered User

    Dec 30, 2011
    5
    0
    0
    St. Albans
    Country Flag:
    Re: Another Gustav Becker for the database

    Hello,

    Thanks for those answers, I obviously need to get a more recent version of the Repair Guide, my 4th edition (1962) clearly isn't good enough! I've taken some more photos but they aren't very good, I will wait a few days and do some in natural daylight.

    Regards, Richard
     
  40. lesbradley

    lesbradley Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Dec 20, 2007
    1,036
    4
    38
    IT analyst
    Fairford, England
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: Another Gustav Becker for the database

    The 10th edition is the latest, produced in 1991, it has so much more info than your version, so it is well worth acquiring. However so much more data has been discovered since it's publication, this is the best place to find it.

    There are other publications worth buying or viewing on the net, but none of them completely reflect the advances in knowledge over the last few years. If you would like a list of further resources we can supply.
     
  41. GBDickie

    GBDickie Registered User

    Dec 30, 2011
    5
    0
    0
    St. Albans
    Country Flag:
    Re: Another Gustav Becker for the database

    A couple of views to complete the picture, so to speak.

    Richard
     

    Attached Files:

  42. Burkhard Rasch

    Burkhard Rasch Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Jun 1, 2007
    4,676
    98
    48
    Male
    General-and trauma surgeon
    Twistringen
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: Another Gustav Becker for the database

    wonderfull clock,I have allmost a twin,with the arabic numeral dial.Two things come to my mind:Have You serviced the mainspring?(took it out of the barrel,cleaned and lubed it) and:I´ve learned that the Beckers with the so decorative overhead suspension only swing a bit over 180°,mine actualy ca.200°.So the space for overswing is verry small,these clocks are even more sensitive to beat setting than other anniversaries.I got some grey hairs till I had mine running!
    Just my 2cts...
    Burkhard
     
  43. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Life Member

    Sep 7, 2000
    12,075
    163
    63
    The Woodlands, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: Another Gustav Becker for the database

    Richard, thanks for your followup photos! You have a great looking clock and I'm sure you will enjoy it for years to come. Keep us posted on any more new ones you add to your collection.
     
  44. Patch

    Patch Registered User

    May 11, 2010
    444
    0
    0
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: Another Gustav Becker for the database

    Burkhard, "Thanks, for the pendulum advice!" I thought for sure, that mine had something wrong, only getting about 190 degrees of spin. Now, I can shine it up, and put it on the mantle!
     
  45. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Life Member

    Sep 7, 2000
    12,075
    163
    63
    The Woodlands, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    #145 John Hubby, Jan 21, 2012
    Last edited: Jan 21, 2012
    Re: Another Gustav Becker for the database

    I've encountered much the same thing with GB clocks having the beat setting upper suspension bracket. However, there are a LOT of them out there since that was the only upper bracket design used by GB for their solid pinion clocks after WWI and until production stopped at the end of 1932. So, we need to learn to deal with them. For maximum pendulum rotation, I've developed some points to check:
    • When setting the suspension fork on the suspension spring, be sure the tines are at the bottom side of the clamp block. This shortens the length of the suspension spring between the fork and the upper block. Note that this will affect how high you can place the suspension fork on the anchor pin and still get the necessary pendulum overswing, but the net effect is to increase the amount of power transferred from the escapement to the pendulum.
    • Check to be sure the anchor pin is firm and secure in its collet on the anchor arbor and that the collet is also firmly in position so the anchor pin is aligned vertical when the anchor assembly is sitting on a flat level surface..
    • Be sure the suspension fork tines are adjusted to the minimum gap with the anchor pin that allows the clock to run. With one tine touching the anchor pin, the gap between the pin and the other tine should not be more than the thickness of a piece of ordinary writing paper. I cut a 1/4-inch wide strip from the edge of a Post-It note to use as a gauge, the strip should have "some" resistance when pulling it through the gap but not enough to tear the paper.
    • Set the suspension fork at the highest position you can get to still have at least 3/8-inch overswing at each end of pendulum rotation, when measured at the tip of the pendulum weight adjusting rod or the point of a 4-Ball arm.
    • Check the "fork" part of the special upper suspension block to see if there is any gap between the tines and the beat adjusting pin that extends below and is controlled by the upper bracket. This should be a "snug" fit with no gap, but NOT tight enough to keep it from being able to move if needed.
    • Make sure there is no looseness in any part of the upper adjusting bracket including the beat setting pin.
    • Make sure that your suspension spring is perfectly centered underneath the upper block hanger tab. If it is off center this induces a twist in the spring that reduces the power available to impulse the pendulum.
    Following all these adjustment points, you should readily get in excess of 200 degrees rotation, normally I will obtain up to 240 or more. The objective here is to remove all slack in the parts from the anchor pin to the pendulum to ensure full and continuous contact in both directions of rotation. Any slack or looseness will decrease the power available to drive the pendulum.

    Although GB had a unique idea regarding how to incorporate an easily adjustable beat setting device in the upper bracket assembly, unfortunately it introduced additional points of potential slack or looseness (the beat setting assembly itself, the upper block "fork" to the beat setting pin, and the upper block hanger tab) that resulted in these clocks not having the pendulum rotation provided by the more "conventional" designs.
     
  46. any400day

    any400day Registered User
    NAWCC Life Member

    Aug 26, 2000
    481
    0
    0
    Singapore
    Country Flag:
    French case Gustav Becker

    I acquired a French case 400 Day clock a few years ago and have all along been doubtful about whether the movement came with the case. Thanks to John Hubby for spotting an article by Peter Gosnell in the January issue of our NAWCC Journal, Watch & Clock Bulletin that had a few pages of a very rare copy of the French 1911-1912 Gustav Becker catalogue that listed the clock.
    The clock, SN2194749 with matching pendulum (Model No. 20104 Régulateur Louis XVI) is attached with a page from Peter’s catalogue. Thank you Peter for sharing your catalogue and allowing me to use the page here.

    Vic
     

    Attached Files:

  47. MUN CHOR-WENG

    MUN CHOR-WENG Registered User

    Sep 5, 2000
    447
    5
    18
    Country Flag:
    Re: French case Gustav Becker

    I happen to have a Gustav Becker housed in French red marble 4-glass case ( pictures shown below). It is similar to the Model 20103 shown in the left picture in Victor’s post above. The movement is identical to Victor’s clock and the serial number 2194702, a mere 27 units earlier. These beautiful and ornate cases were also supplied by the French case makers to other 400 day clock manufacturers such as JUF and Grivolas as can be seen from their 1910 catalogue.


    These high quality cases were extremely well made and clocks fitted in them were normally sold in up market outlets. Understandably these clocks would cost more than those fitted in less elaborate case. In the 1910 Grivolas 400 day clock catalogue, a clock in 4-glass plain brass cass costs 120 francs while one in a marble 4-glass case similar to the one shown above costs 220 francs.



    Mun C W
    IMG_3826-2.jpg IMG_3843.jpg IMG_3847.jpg IMG_3865.jpg IMG_3850.JPG IMG_3853.jpg
     

    Attached Files:

  48. MUN CHOR-WENG

    MUN CHOR-WENG Registered User

    Sep 5, 2000
    447
    5
    18
    Country Flag:
    Re: French case Gustav Becker

    Just realised there's an error in my last post above.

    The difference between 2194749 and 2194702 is 47 and not 27.

    My apologies.

    Mun C W
     
  49. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Life Member

    Sep 7, 2000
    12,075
    163
    63
    The Woodlands, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: French case Gustav Becker

    Vic, thanks very much for posting your clock and the catalog page confirming it is an authentic GB. I notice this case has the identical frame as Model. No. 240 in the 1910 JUF 400-Day Catalog, but doesn't have the champleve decoration that is illustrated in the JUF catalog. Of interest, we had a Hauck clock posted recently with the identical JUF case, photos HERE in the "Post Your Hauck Clocks Here" thread. Although not the exact same case, it confirms that GB, JUF, and Hauck used the same supplier of French cases.

    Based on the serial number your clock was made about mid-first half 1911 which matches neatly with the 1911-1912 date of the French GB catalog.

    I would also like to thank Peter Gosnell for his generosity in preparing an electronic copy of the French GB catalog.
     
  50. John Hubby

    John Hubby Principal Administrator
    Staff Member NAWCC Star Fellow NAWCC Life Member

    Sep 7, 2000
    12,075
    163
    63
    The Woodlands, TX
    Country Flag:
    Region Flag:
    Re: French case Gustav Becker

    Mun, thanks very much for posting your GB clock, I had documented this same one several years ago from an online auction that had poor and incomplete photos so yours provide much more detail. As I noted for Victor's clock, the serial number on yours places it made at the same time about mid-first quarter 1911. This case is one also used by multiple makers, including at least GB and JUF. The identical case is illustrated in the 1910 JUF catalog as Model No. 237, Rot Marmor (Red Marble), and interestingly also in the 1912 GB catalog that Victor has published as Model No. 491:
    Mod. No. 491.jpg I have the JUF Model No. 239 which is the identical case design but with green Brazilian onyx. It was also supplied with white marble base and top.

    These are both elegant clocks and any collector would be proud to own one.
     

Share This Page