Post Your Gustav Becker 400-Day CLocks Here

Re: Bandstand with disc pendulum

Jim, thanks for posting. This one with serial number 4405 and Plate 1207 was made just after mid-1931. It appears complete and original and is in really quite good condition from its appearance in your photos. For info, at one point I had concluded the Junghans takeover of GB was in late 1925 or early 1926, but about a year ago documentation was found that proves the takeover was actually in May 1930. Thus, the change in GB's serial numbering system occurred well before the takeover and must have been for other reasons. What we have also found within the past couple of years, is that the new serial numbering started in May 1925. There are a number of clocks with dated inscriptions that we previously could not explain that now fit perfectly with this change date. In addition, GB started stamping their "Amerikaner" time and strike movements with the actual month and year of manufacture at that same time. This was initially in a format of (letter-year) such as "e 25" for May 1925 which has been documented. Later, around the end of 1927 and into early 1928 they changed the letter to a number, for example "11 27" for November 1927. The "MM-YY continued to the end of 1932 when the Freiburg factory was closed. The later GB logo clocks made with Junghans or HAC movements used the Junghans date system of "YY-MM".

This clock is illustrated in Tran Duy Ly's "Gustav Becker" book as model No. 484 taken from the GB 1926 sale catalog, but with the first design GB 4-Ball pendulum:
The examples in my database are divided about 3 to 2 between the GB 4-Ball and the GB disc pendulum. The second version of the GB 4-Ball was introduced in 2nd half 1925, and a large majority of the clocks with a 4-Ball have that version. It is the one illustrated as pendulum No. 34, which has an exposed threaded tube above the rating cylinder whereas the first version had a straight full-length cylinder with a convex ring around the center of the cylinder. Also, the second version has a wide "skirt" around the top of the pendulum and the first has a narrow rounded cap.

Per your request I'm moving this to the "Post Your Gustav Becker 400-Day Clocks Here" thread.

 

Re: Bandstand with disc pendulum

Mike, thanks for posting the photos of your GB Louvre's. Could you post the details of each one for documentation purposes? Thanks in advance.

 

Re: Bandstand with disc pendulum

Mark, I don't recall documenting these two clocks in other threads so I guess I missed them somehow. Sorry for the long delay; I'll comment on each one separately.

This clock was made near the end of 1906 based on the serial number. The movement has Plate 1199 which coincidentally shows the actual year of manufacture. Having the pendulum with matching serial number shows it started life with the clock thus all is fully original including the suspension guard and upper suspension bracket.

This clock design was not identified in the first GB sale catalogs we had access to, but was finally found in a sales brochure from the company it was made for. That was Kuehl Clock Co. of Chicago and Berlin, who purchased GB clocks from the July-September quarter of 1907 to the end of 1925. The "K.C.Co. Germany" stamped on your dial refers to the fact they had offices in Berlin and also were partners in a Black Forest Clock Company making cuckoo clocks for the U.S. market. I don't know if that lowered the tariff rate or gave come other advantage, but they started using the "K.C.Co. Germany" just before mid-1909, about the same time they acquired their interest in the Black Forest operation. Their earlier purchases from 1907 until this change had the dial imprinted with "Made in Germany for Kuehl Clock Co. Chicago" at 6:00 outside the chapter ring.

The model of your clock is No. 500, which was manufactured from 1912 to 1921 based on examples documented to date. Your has the highest serial number so far for this model and was made near the beginning of 1921; the movement has Plate 1207A which was used for all these models I have documented. Most of these models made before WWI have a turned mahogany base in the same shape as the brass base on your clock; after the war only the brass version was made. One has been documented with a turned green marble base of the same shape as the earlier standard GB brass base, it was made about mid-1913.

The overscribe of the "5" over the number "4" in the serial number on the bottom of your pendulum was something that happened in the factory. I have seen a few other examples, and the fact it was done in the middle of the serial number is a strong indication it was simply a mistake made by the worker who had the task to scribe the numbers once the pendulum had been selected for a particular clock. I would consider the pendulum to be original to the clock.

 

Gintaras, thanks very much for posting the photos of your GB 400-Day Clock.

You have model No. 503 as shown in GB sale catalogs from 1924 to 1932, the last year of production at the Freiburg factory. Based on the serial number 2431 your clock was made in the April-June quarter of 1928.

The pendulum is the first version of GB's 4-Ball pendulums, which was first introduced in early 1916. This design continued to be used until 1932, even though GB had introduced an improved version in 1925 that was easier to set the clock rate. I suspect they were too optimistic about their sales and had more of the first version made than needed, so they must have intermixed them o offered the buyers a choice.

These are very attractive clocks and quite collectible.

 

Re: Becker for John's Database

Glyn, thanks for providing the link to this GB clock. Your dating was spot on, in fact it was made right near the end of production at the Freiburg factory in late 1932. The highest serial number recorded so far for the 1925-1932 production is 4990 and this clock is only 11 digits below that.

The Roman number dial is not found that often so that's an added attraction to the clock. Having the "C" decor piece (see Appendix 87 in the Repair Guide) at the front and the embossed fern pattern in the dial bezel also makes it quite attractive.

 

Re: Becker for John's Database

Polly, thanks for posting these in the GB 400-Day thread. This one was made about December 1906 (my dad was born the same time this one was made) and has Plate 1199. The pendulum was made in the January-March quarter of 1913 based on its serial number.

This one was made about September-October 1904 based on the serial number. It has Plate 1195A, with the matching pendulum being the first variation of the GB disc pendulum as found with the very first Graham escapement GB movements made in 1902.

Both are great clocks, you did an outstanding job of restoration with the first one, do post this one when you have it finished.

 

Gintaras, thanks for posting your GB clock. The case is original and shown in GB sale catalogs as model No. 480, with Mahogany 4-Glass Lift-Off Cover. This model was made from early 1903 to mid-1912, also being documented having a solid oak case. Your clock was made about October 1904 based on the movement serial number

As already pointed out your dial is silvered. It is engraved solid brass, so it can be restored quite nicely to original condition. The original dial silver was a soft matte finish, "not" shiny as I have seen some polished out.

I somehow missed the Louvre model clock you posted back in October last year. In any event, it appears the serial number is 4903, which places it being completed about Sept.-Oct. 1932, being among the last one hundred or so GB 400-Day clocks produced. The highest serial number I have recorded to date is 4990, only 87 units higher than yours.

It looks like all is present on this clock; the only comment I might observe is that the pendulum cap at the top above the weight arms and below the hook appears to have been modified from original design. The pendulum is actually the first 4-Ball design, and normally that cap is rounded downward so it covers the upper ends of the weight arms. There are slots for each arm in the cover, I think someone may have made those because they didn't know how to take the pendulum apart. Otherwise, it is a very nice example, and should not be all that difficult to find a replacement pendulum or maybe someone will have a "parts" pendulum with weights missing or something. I am attaching a photo of what the pendulum should look like.

 

Gintaras, thanks very much for posting your GB clock. The turned mahogany second base is a nice addition to the clock, would have been done by an owner or shop but not from the factory. Based on the serial number 2198615 your clock was made about April 1911.

It is good to see the pendulum has the same serial number, indicating this is the original pendulum from the factory.

There are two parts now with your clock that are not original:

1) The upper suspension bracket is No. 38, which was used only by Kienzle (late 1920s), Kern & Link (1929-1937), and Kern & Söhne (1937 Onward). The original bracket would have been No. 7, which was introduced in 1909. From the beginning of 1910 until the beat adjustment bracket No. 8 was patented in March 1913 upper bracket No. 7 was the only one used by GB. It is not difficult to find replacements.

2) The suspension guard is the first version introduced by GB in 1905. It was used until late 1909 with upper brackets No. 4 and No. 5 and a third bracket not illustrated in the Repair Guide that looks like a combination of these two brackets. It is taller than the next version and the upper end iis folded over at a 90 degree angle. The guard that should be with your clock is shorter and has a rounded upper end, that just fits below the saddle support platform of upper bracket No. 7 which was introduced in second half 1909 at the same time as the new suspension guard.

The rest of your clock appears to be original and should clean up quite nicely.

 

You are correct the actual bracket isn't in the Repair Guide, but it "is" the bracket that was used only by Kienzle (late 1920s), Kern & Link (1929-1937), and Kern & Söhne (1937 Onward). I should have made that point and then noted that the actual bracket isn't illustrated but "looks like" No. 38 only larger by about 25%.

It's not at all like No. 18, which is made from cast brass. This one is stamped from sheet brass.

 

Re: 400 Day Clock Indentification & Suspension Help

Gintaras, congratulations and thanks for posting! Your GB skeleton appears complete and original including the pendulum, but with a missing suspension guard. The one with rounded top sold by Michael Kiss in Australia is a perfect replica of the correct suspension guard for your clock.

Your clock was made in January 1910, in the first of four "batches" of skeleton clocks made in 1910 and 1911. There is a lot of information about all this in the thread link posted by Kurt. I still need to post photos of the dial variations I have documented in that thread, hopefully can find time to do that later this week.

 

Re: 400 Day Clock Indentification & Suspension Help

Kamil, thanks very much for posting your GB with mercury pendulum. It will be appreciated if you would also post photos of the movement including back plate and side views, so we can identify the upper suspension bracket and the back plate itself. Is the movement serial number the same as the one on the pendulum disc?

For info, the pendulum is a marriage. Here is why:

1) The GB pendulum disc, which is an original from a No. 23 GB disc pendulum, is scribed with serial number 2088453. This serial number was made about April 1909.

2) The patent for the cross-tube mercury pendulum, DRGM 453568, was granted to Andreas Huber on January 23, 1911. It is thus impossible that the mercury tubes could have been available to mount on a GB pendulum disc in 1909.

3) The presentation inscription is dated November 21, 1912. That shows the pendulum now with the clock could easily have been assembled using the disc from the original GB pendulum and the "top works" of one of the early mercury design pendulums produced after the patent was granted. In fact, looking closely at the pendulum I see the following:

>> The disc is without question a standard GB No. 23 pendulum disc. It has been modified by addition of four holes on the center diameter of the flat top to enable mounting of the mercury pendulum cross-tube support frame. The original mounting screws from the mercury pendulum were likely used.

>> The GB center post, adjusting rod, and weights were used instead of these same parts from the mercury pendulum. This was likely done because the adjusting weights for the mercury pendulum have guide pins that require slots in the top of the pendulum disc, which the GB disc does not have. The GB center post had a threaded hole in the top center where the gallery and hook shaft screwed in, that hole appears to have been filled with solder. The adjusting rod position screw on the side of the center post is visible in the photos; the mercury pendulum version has that screw at the top center of the post.

Here is a photo of an original No. 9 mercury pendulum, note the center post detail and compare to Kamil's pendulum.


Also note the quite different adjustment weights compared to the ones on Kamil's pendulum.

One final comment regarding the use of the No. 9 mercury pendulum. Up to now, serial number matches between movements and the mercury pendulums have been found ONLY with Kienzle movements made from 1913 to 1920. While these pendulums have been found with other maker's clocks, none of them appear to have been original equipment with those clocks.

 

Re: 400 Day Clock Indentification & Suspension Help

Kamil, thanks for the additional photos. These confirm that the upper suspension bracket is No. 4 in the Repair Guide and that the pendulum disc and the movement have the same serial number.

Regarding the mercury tube support arms, I also noticed these were thinner than the center supports on your pendulum. I checked the ones I have and they are all the same thickness. I also looked at a number that I have in my photo archives and they all have the arms and the centers of the same thickness. I can only presume that whoever made the modified pendulum did not have the original parts and made the two arms with the thickest brass stock he had available. The arms look quite similar to the originals except for the thickness, so it should work OK.

 

What is on the Chapter 72 site is what we thought we knew in 2011, that was taken from info that I wrote about a year or so before that. I will contact their webmaster and provide updated info for them (I joined the NAWCC in the chapter in 1982 while working on assignment in Australia). I recall in 2013, Hans-Heinrich Schmid found the actual takeover date when Junghans acquired GB, and it was in May 1930, not in 1927. Also that same year, I uncovered several GB Amerikaner design movements that were stamped on the front plates with date stamps ranging from may 1925 to the early 1930s. Finally I uncovered the DRP patent for the GB adjustable upper suspension bracket which was granted in March 1913, about a year before I had it dated from other sources.

When these three firm data points were worked into my GB database, it did two things: First, it resolved several anomalies on dating, where a presentation date inscribed in a clock base or attached plaque was several months up to two years earlier than my data showed the clock was made. Secondly, it explained exactly what had happened in May 1925 when the "SILESIA" stamp and the round GB anchor and Medaille d'Or logos stamps simply disappeared, and GB tossed out their old serial number system that covered virtually all their clocks with serial numbers, and restarted with four sets of numbers for different types of clocks. I had to completely rework my GB dating going back to mis-1911 and all the way to the end of 1932 when the GB Freiburg factory was closed. I posted an interim set of data in early 2014, and that was later updated in 2015 and again in May 2016, which is the last update I did. I hope to have a new update posted by the end of the year, there will be very little change to the Freiburg data that includes 400-Day clocks.

The Braunau data is going to have some changes in the period 1913 to 1926, as some questions regarding when certain types of clocks were made have been at least partially resolved. I also will be adding a new dating table for the GB alarm clocks that were made and serially numbered from 1876 to 1916. I have found that GB had a completely separate set of serial numbers for these clocks that started with the pendulum versions and carried through the change from pendulum to balance wheel escapements that happened from late 1911 to early 1913. From 1913 to the end of 1916 or into 1917 GB continued using serial numbers but not after 1917 as best I can determine.