Post Your Gustav Becker 400-Day CLocks Here

Gustav Becker Anniversary

John, Chapter 168 is working on a project to date GB 400-Day clocks by serial number. This project is nearly complete and we do have substantial info but have not yet published it. If you could provide me with the serial number from the back plate of your clock movement I can give you a manufacturing date which will be accurate within plus/minus one year.

Also, check the bottom of your pendulum, in most cases the GB clocks have the serial number either scribed or written with india ink on the bottom cover plate. If the number matches the one on the back plate you can be reasonably assured the pendulum will be original to the clock. If the pendulum doesn't have a serial number, that doesn't mean it's not original, just that for some reason that one was missed. If it does have, but different from the one on the back plate then the pendulum started life with another GB clock . . and I can date that number as well. Will look forward to receiving your info.

John Hubby, Secretary
The International 400-Day Clock Chapter #168

 

Gustav Becker Anniversary

John, I would date your clock as being made circa 1919/1920. That's based on several clocks with inscribed dates in that period with numbers just below and just above your clock.

Unfortunately Terwilliger's numbers are significantly off base after about 1907 (shows too many clocks being made before WWI), as are those published by Kochmann (shows too few before WWI). Unfortunately the factory records after 1905 were destroyed in WWII so we don't have the exact numbers available, and must rely on finding clocks with original purchase receipts and presentation inscriptions on them. However, that has been a good source for data.

The highest serial number yet recorded for a GB 400-Day is 2,488,065 and that clock was produced in early 1926 just before Junghans took over the GB factory. That indicates about 220,000 clocks total (including all kinds such as wall and mantel clocks) were produced between your clock and early 1926. Junghans started a new serial numbering sequence for GB clocks in May 1926, so that all GB's after that date have a very low serial number.

Hope this will help!!

John Hubby, Secretary
The International 400-Day Chapter #168

 

Gustav Becker Suspension Guard

Michael, I've had a few hundred of these off the clocks and the one in your photo is the first one I've seen that is bent to one side. Don't know what may have caused that, but all the ones I've seen are straight as an arrow, with the sides above and below the lower support screw tabs being in perfect alignment.

I'm curious about the color of your guard. Is there any possibility it was in a fire? That could explain both the color and the distortion.

Also for info, your clock was made right at the middle of 1906, about 8 months after GB first introduced their version of a suspension guard.

John Hubby

 

Gustav Becker Dial - Roman Numerals.

Michael, from my database the Roman numerals first appeared on 400-Day GB clocks around serial number 2422940, which is mid-1924. Your clock was made about 3rd quarter 1925.

I have more than 400 clocks recorded prior to the 1924 clock, none of which have a roman numeral dial. However, after that it looks like about 1 in 10 had Roman numbers, and that continued until production ceased in 1933.

Conclusion: The Roman number dial would be unusual if your clock had been made before 1924, but it's not uncommon after that time.

John Hubby

 

400 Day Clock Indentification & Suspension Help

Mark, the correct back plate for your clock from the Repair Guide would be Plate 1627, page 166. This shows a suspension spring strength of 0.0035", which would slow the clock down compared to the 0.0038" you now have.

Although the "book" says this clock was made by Badische Uhrenfabrik, the base and dial indicate to me it was actually made by (or for) Kienzle. There is considerable controversy about who actually made these clocks. The lantern pinions and pin pallet escapements were patented by Andreas Huber, who also made 400-Day clocks, and there is strong evidence that all the clocks using these features were actually made by Huber. However, there is still much to be learned so we can't say conclusively who made them.

Another problem with regulating your clock: You are working with the wrong pendulum for the clock. The pendulum you have is a Gustav Becker disc. If you will check there more than likely is a serial number scribed on the bottom cover. From that I can date the pendulum, but that doesn't solve your problem.

There are three "correct" pendulums for your clock. The first is a 3-ball, similar to No. 28 in the Repair Guide (photo below). The second is a 4-Ball, No. 33 in the Repair Guide. The third is disc pendulum No. 38. I don't have photos available of these but you can see them in the Repair Guide. The 3-ball and 4-ball pendulums are quite a bit taller than the disc, thus would hang normally with the standard suspension spring length. However, the disc pendulum when fitted with this clock used a twist rod extension piece that looks like the extension shown on pendulum No. 41, except it has a hook on one end and a pin at the bottom to hold the suspension wire bottom block and the hook on the pendulum.



There may be someone on this board who has an extra of one of these, any one of the three would be correct and appropriate to your clock.

Hope this will help!

John Hubby

 

400 Day Clock Indentification & Suspension Help

Mark,

I keep a log of ALL GB serial numbers including loose pendulums. I have been successful in matching up four with their original clocks over the past three years. Please let me know the serial number from your pendulum and it just may fit one of the clocks in my database.

John Hubby

 

Re: Gustav Becker dating.

Jeff, congratulations! I saw your clock when it was up for sale and asked the seller about the serial number as I believe it is missing a digit, most likely a "2" at the beginning. In other words, should be 2272294. I didn't get a reply so you will have to verify the number when you get the clock. In looking at the photos it appeared to me the first digit was most likely hidden behind the click spring and with the suspension guard in place it would be difficult to see. This is common with the GB's, have had to point this out several times to other sellers.

The characteristics of the clock "fit" the 2272294 number, including the back plate, upper suspension bracket, base, pendulum, dial, etc. That would place it being made in mid-1916 while WWI was well in progress. Per my research GB were making from 3 to 8 thousand serial numbered clocks a year at their Freiburg factory during the war, and 20 to 30 thousand a year at their Braunau factory. We have documented that the Freiburg factory was heavily involved in the war effort, making time fuses, timers, alarm clocks, and other stuff for the German army. It appears that the Braunau factory, being in Bohemia, was not affected nearly as much. The Bohemia state was ceded to Czechoslovakia in November 1918 as part of the armistice agreement, but the Becker factory in Braunau continued operation until early 1926 when Junghans took over and stopped GB production at that location.

I'll be interested to see the actual serial number.

John Hubby
>>>>

 

Re: Gustav Becker dating.

Jeff, only a few of the pre-WWII clocks have suspension units listed in the Repair Guide, mainly Kundo, JUF (after 1910), Kern & Link, and Kern & Söhne. All these used a 4-Ball pendulum that was the same dimensions and weight both before and after the war so it was easy for Terwilliger to extrapolate back to use the same springs that applied after the war.

Becker, JUF (before 1910), Kienzle, Hauck (shown as Haas), Vosseler, Badische, do not, at least in part because they all use different suspension setups and mostly disc pendulums that are not all the same dimensions and weight even for the same maker. In many instances they also used different case dimensions, pendulum rod extensions, and other things that make it nearly impossible to come up with a standard suspension unit setup.

Your clock in particular is different from the earlier Beckers that use a much simpler design upper bracket, and generally a slightly shorter suspension spring. You will have to set the length by trial and error, I do mine so the bottom of the pendulum disc is about 3/8 to 1/2 inches above the base.

John Hubby
>>>>

 

Re: Gustav Becker dating.

Hadash, unfortunately the Gustav Becker serial number dating information in the Repair Guide is not correct. I have been conducting research on GB clocks for more than 10 years and have developed accurate dating information, based on known patent data, contemporary trade magazine articles, sales catalog advertisements, and other documented sources. Presuming the serial number "is" 2272294, this clock was actually made in 2nd quarter 1913. The serial number closely follows the first documented clock (Serial No. 2272056) that used the patented adjustable upper suspension bracket, which patent was granted March 3, 1913.

I am attaching a graph showing a comparison of my data with that of the Repair Guide (Terwilliger) and the data published by Karl Kochmann in "The Gustav Becker Story".

You will see that Terwilliger's data is simply a straight line starting at 1900 and going out to 1912, showing maximum production of 2,650,000 clocks. We know for certain that GB clocks were made well beyond that date, and no serial numbers have been documented higher than 2,510,000. I had the opportunity to go through Terwilliger's files but could find no evidence of how he arrived at his estimates of numbers. The "only" serial number he reported that is correct is 1,500,000, known to have been produced in 1900.

Kochman's data is just as bad. He reports only four data points, and in his book the only evidence presented is a sales receipt for one clock with 2,244,868 that was dated in 1926. In reality this clock was made in 1912.

My data includes 20 firmly documented serial numbers, each known to have been made in a specific year. Additionally, I have documented over 600 clocks made between 1900 and 1926, placing the data in a spreadsheet such that the characteristics of the clocks can be seen to change with time, providing a kind of cross-check with the firm data points. The slowdown of production during WWI is very evident in the graph, then the recovery after the war when production resumed but never approached pre-war levels. The data ends in 1926 when Gebrüder Junghans took over the GB operation and ceased using the GB serial numbers that had been started more than 75 years earlier.

Please note these data compare ONLY the Freiburg, Silesia factory data. Serial numbers from the Braunau, Bohemia factory are a completely different series and must not be confused with the Freiburg numbers. Neither Terwilliger nor Kochmann had any data for this factory, and Kochmann reports data in his book dated as Freiburg clocks but actually taken from Braunau clocks. For whatever reason he did not recognize the Braunau logo as such.

John Hubby
>>>>

 

Re: Gustav Becker dating.

Les, I've documented the Braunau clocks from beginning of production in Feb. 1888 to close about March 1926. I posted a list of numbers and dates on another thread in the "Clocks" Forum, however the data between 1900 and 1918 have been changed because of the discovery of previously unknown Austrian patents that were stamped on a movement I bought a couple of years ago. The Austrian patent records have only recently been put on line and I was able to date these two patents having been granted in January 1912, compared to my earlier estimate of late 1909 for the serial number in question. That caused a two-year plus shift in the data at that point, so I've reconstructed the data tables accordingly.

Following is a list of the current data table. The "anchor points" are the beginning of production in 1888, the introduction of the rod gong in 1899, dated inscriptions in 1904 and 1925, the subject patents in 1912, and the creation of Czechoslovakia in November 1918 which resulted in "Made in Tschechoslovakia" being stamped on the movements. The present data show a relatively steady output of clocks from the early 1890's until WWI, when production slowed (but did NOT stop) from over 30,000 clocks per year to just under 20,000 clocks per year, continuing to taper off until the Junghans takeover in early 1926. Junghans closed the operation and moved inventory of complete and unfinished clocks and materials to the Freiburg location where they were finished out. They apparently sold the factory to another clockmaker but we don't know yet who that was.

Here is the list, use with the understanding that it is still subject to change as more accurate info becomes available. The serial numbers shown are the estimated first number for that year, they all start with "1" because of the system I use for statistical rendering of the numbers:

1888.15 1
1889 15001
1890 34001
1891 54001
1892 74601
1893 95601
1894 117001
1895 138801
1896 161001
1897 183601
1898 206601
1899 230001
1900 253901
1901 278301
1902 303301
1903 329001
1904 355501
1905 382901
1906 411301
1907 440701
1908 471301
1909 503101
1910 535901
1911 569501
1912 603601
1913 638001
1914 672001
1915 705001
1916 736001
1917 762001
1918 783001
1919 803001
1920 823001
1921 843001
1922 862501
1923 880501
1924 897001
1925 911501
1926 925001

Now, here are some "Gee Whiz" things I've learned from my research into both Freiburg and Braunau clocks:

1) 3-weight Grand Sonnerie striking clocks
ALL of these made by GB were made in Braunau. I have yet to find any of these bearing a Freiburg logo or serial number.

2) Austrian style mounting brackets
All of the weight-driven clocks made in Braunau used the Austrian system of mounting brackets with four "bayonet" posts to hold the movement in the clock case. The back plates of these Braunau clocks all have four inverted "keyhole" slots where the bayonet posts fit in to support the movement.

3) Slide plate mounting brackets, mounting boards.
Both Braunau and Freiburg used a metal slide plate with matching bracket or a wood mounting board for mounting the movement in the case. Braunau used this ONLY for their spring drive clocks, whereas ALL of the Freiburg clocks, both weight and spring driven, used the metal slide plate with matching bracket or mounting board system to support the movements where appropriate. Table clocks have the movements mounted to the front of the case in most instances

4) Rod Gong
Braunau were the first to introduce the use of the rod gong patented by Johann Obergfell in December 1898, these gongs showing up on Braunau clocks in eqrly 1899. By 1903 virtually all Braunau striking clocks used rod gongs. The first documented use in Freiburg is in 1906, after that they continued to mainly use a coil gong except for their Westminster clocks (first documented late 1907). Becker patented a number of coil gong and rod gong designs, which were used on both Braunau and Freiburg clocks.

5) Spring drive wall clocks
The earliest spring drive wall clock documented so far was for Freiburg in 1877.

6) Braunau clock models
From data collected to date, it appears that Braunau only made the following types of clocks:
>> Weight driven wall clocks, in Time Only, Time and Strike (hour and half-hour single and bim-bam strike), Time and Strike Grand Sonnerie clocks.
>> Spring driven wall clocks, in Time Only and hour & half-hour single and bim-bam Time and Strike.
>> Time only and Time and Alarm novelty clocks with elegant fine wood cases with gilt brass fittings.
>> Time and Alarm clocks.
There is no evidence to date that any table clocks, mantel clocks, Westminster chime, 400-Day clocks, or American style movements were ever made at Braunau. Only ONE example of a floor standing clock has been documented. All Braunau clocks documented to date have serial numbers, even the alarm clocks.

7) Freiburg clock models
Freiburg made the whole range of clocks EXCEPT they did not make the 3-Weight Grand Sonnerie models as noted above. We know that Freiburg made all of the following:
>> Weight and spring driven floor clocks (grandmother and grandfather), in Time Only, Time and Strike (hour & half-hour single and bim-bam strike), Westminster chime, and musical chime clocks.
>> Weight driven wall clocks, in Time Only, and Time and Strike clocks (hour and half-hour single and bim-bam strike).
>> Spring driven wall clocks, in Time Only, Time and Strike (hour & half-hour single and bim-bam strike), Westminster chime, and musical chime clocks.
>> Spring driven mantel clocks, in Time Only, Time and Strike (hour & half-hour single and bim-bam strike), Westminster and musical chime clocks. NOTE that the GB dual chime (Westminster and Whittington) clocks appear to have only been produced AFTER the Junghans takeover in 1926.
>> 400-Day clocks, starting with cylinder escapement design in 1873, converting to Graham deadbeat escapement in 1902, and continuing to 1933 when all 400-Day clock production was stopped.
>> Lever escapement table and wall clocks, some claimed to be used by the German Navy.
>> American style movements were introduced in 1909 and continued until 1940 (Junghans from 1926 to 1940). These did not have serial numbers but some were stamped with the year and month of manufacture in the late 1920's and 1930's.
>> Alarm clocks of various designs, none with serial numbers.
>> Inexpensive pocket watches to compete with the U.S. "Dollar Watches". These did not carry serial numbers.

I am posting the graph for Braunau serial numbers in a new message, the file would not upload to this one for some reason.

John Hubby
>>>>

 

Re: Gustav Becker dating.

Here is the Braunau serial number dating graph.

John Hubby
>>>>

 

Re: Gustav Becker dating.

Jeff, thanks for the great photos of your clock. Confirming the serial number puts it as being made mid 2nd quarter 1913, right at the beginning of the use of the No. 8 adjustable upper suspension bracket that was patented in March 1913.

"K. C. Cº Germany" is the abbreviation for Kuehl Clock Co. They were the successors in 1907 to the Geo. Kuehl Co. who were established Feb. 1, 1878. Their advertisements state they were "manufacturers and importers" and had offices in Chicago and factories in Schonach and Hornberg, Bad-Schwarzwald, Germany. I have read somewhere they also had offices in Germany but can't remember the city and can't find the reference. They evidently assembled Black Forest clocks in Germany plus contracted with several makers to produce all other kind of clocks. They were major traders in the clock business from the late 1800's up to WWII. I've not seen anything yet that indicates they remained in business after WWII.

The first GB 400-Day I have documented with a Kuehl name or logo was made in October 1907, with "Made in Germany for Kuehl Clock Co. Chicago" written at the bottom of the dial. This was continued until mid-1909 when they abbreviated it to "K. C. Cº. Germany", and that was used to the end of 1925. Evidently they did not continue to deal in GB clocks after the Junghans takeover, as I have not found any evidence of their name or logo on any later clocks.

John Hubby
>>>>

 

Re: Gustav Becker dating.

Jeff, the photos don't show it but by the time this clock was made, Becker was using what I call a "tab" arrangement to mount the finials. There should be a threaded hole near the upper edge of the front plate, and a similar threaded hole in the center of the finial with a kind of figure 8 piece holding the finial in place with two screws. I'll look for a photo and post later.

John Hubby
>>>>

 

Re: Gustav Becker dating.

Jeff, I think it is a replacement, but it's hard to say. I've not seen another GB with this arrangement. It appears to me the top piece is thicker than usually found on a GB and it's also slightly wider, but the finials appear to be the same as found on other GB clocks. Are the pins fixed in the front plate or in the top piece? If in the top piece, is there any evidence of threads in the holes in the front plate?

John Hubby
>>>>

 

Re: Gustav Becker dating.

Iad, please do post some photos here so we can see what you have. A full front view and a closeup of the back plate of the movement with the suspension guard removed (if it has one) will be best. Also, please confirm the serial number of your clock since it is not always completely visible in the photos.

Regarding the pendulum, that usually doesn't give any indication of age of the clock. Many pendulum designs were used for a number of years.

 

Re: Gustav Becker dating.

Stola, bienvenue au forum! Le numéro de série 4934 prouve que votre horloge est l'une des dernières horloges de Gustav Becker 400-Day construites. L'année était en retard 1932 ou début 1933, quand Junghans a arrêté l'usine de Becker Fribourg et a consolidé toutes leurs exécutions d'horlogerie dans Schramberg.

La raison du bas numéro de série est que quand la fusion entre Junghans et Gustav Becker a été commencée début 1926, une nouvelle série de numéro de série a été commencée pour ces horloges et également pour quelques autres types qui ont continué à être faits à l'usine de Fribourg.

Je serai dans l'attente pour voir des photos de votre horloge pour confirmer la date et d'autres détails de sa construction.
====================================

Stola, welcome to our forum! The serial number 4934 shows that your clock is one of the last Gustav Becker 400-Day clocks manufactured. The year was late 1932 or early 1933, when Junghans shut down the Becker Freiburg factory and consolidated all their clockmaking operations in Schramberg.

The reason for the low serial number is that when the amalgamation between Junghans and Gustav Becker was started in early 1926, a new serial number series was started for these clocks and also for a few other types that continued to be made at the Freiburg factory.

I will look forward to see photos of your clock to confirm the date and other details of its construction.