Post your GRIVOLAS 400 Day clocks here

svenedin

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John, thank you so much for your reply. This is much more detailed information that I had hoped for. My negotiations with the vendor are ongoing but you have given me hope that the missing parts could be sourced.

Stephen
 

svenedin

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Sorry about the spelling in the previous post. I meant to say "than I had hoped for". I could not work out how to edit my post once it was posted.

I have also realised that I haven't introduced myself properly which was dreadfully rude of me especially when you have all been so helpful and welcoming.

So, I am a British collector of clocks and watches and I live in Surrey near London. I am a hospital doctor working for the NHS. My grandfather was a watchmaker and my father collected clocks and watches. I inherited 4 longcase clocks, 8 carriage clocks, many pocket watches and various others many years ago. I have collected a few more but there is still a lot to be done in terms of overhauling and restoring the clocks and watches from my father's collection. I am learning basic clock and watch repair from working on junk or very low value mass-produced stuff but at the moment I don't have the skills or tools to do much more than disassembly, cleaning and oiling. Having said that, I did make a new winding arbor hook last weekend and I was quite proud of myself!

I have always been fascinated by torsion clocks but I don't have one in the collection. I have regarded them as a novelty but a bit rubbish, perhaps because the only ones I have seen are modern and cheaply made. These older ones are a different matter entirely and are much more serious timepieces!
 

jkfabulos

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Here is an interesting one that just sold on Ebay. Go to Ebay search and use this number.
400195706397
 

John Hubby

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Here is an interesting one that just sold on Ebay. Go to Ebay search and use this number.
400195706397
Jim, very interesting clock. This one uses the identical inlaid mahogany case as illustrated no. 250 in the Jahresuhren-Fabrik 1910 400-Day catalog. This is the fifth such "crossover" model with an unusual case design that I've documented for Grivolas clocks, including two with JUF movements having the special Grivolas serial number on the left edge of the back plate. The others are No. 220 wall clock, No. 243 crystal regulator, No. 245 mahogany table model, and No. 251 inlaid mahogany table model. There are several other cases shared by both companies as well as by Kienzle and Hauck, some with common model numbers and some different.

Based on the serial number this clock was made in 3rd quarter 1908, so far the highest serial number for this year in my data. I have asked the seller for permission to post photos.
 
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John Hubby

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Just bought this one on a whim, don't know yet if the case is original, will post more when I have the clock.
Les, will look forward to seeing the photos of your clock. I suspect the case could be original even though not illustrated in the 1910 Grivolas catalog. I have a wall model that has quite similar balustrade top and carvings, have seen photos of others in the same manner. Does it have a pendulum?
 

lesbradley

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Les, will look forward to seeing the photos of your clock. I suspect the case could be original even though not illustrated in the 1910 Grivolas catalog. I have a wall model that has quite similar balustrade top and carvings, have seen photos of others in the same manner. Does it have a pendulum?
This is the item description from the auction catalogue (Gardiner Houlgate Lot 945, 25-2-2011), I haven't seen the clock, but assume from this it has. I paid bottom estimate for it, which I thought was too good to be true.

Unusual French walnut torsion mantel timepiece, the movement back plate stamped 'Pendule 400 Jours', Paris, no. A.6.-530-3, the 3.75" white dial within a foliate cast bezel over a disc pendulum and within an architectural turned case surmounted by a galleried cornice, 21.5" high
 

lesbradley

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Les, will look forward to seeing the photos of your clock. I suspect the case could be original even though not illustrated in the 1910 Grivolas catalog. I have a wall model that has quite similar balustrade top and carvings, have seen photos of others in the same manner. Does it have a pendulum?
Just caught enough daylight tonight to get reasonable photos. Here are the pictures of the latest Grivolas as promised.
 

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Burkhard Rasch

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Wow,extraordinary nice!Congrats!
Burkhard
 

lesbradley

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John already has this in his database, was sold on Ebay from Austria in 2008. Unfortunately the complete suspension assembly, including the top block/gimbal is now missing, I will have to make some parts. It was there when the clock was sold on Ebay. Where it has been for the last three years is a mystery.

I bought from a local specialist clock auction. I was surprised how reasonable a price it went for, adds even more enjoyment to the aquisition of such an unusual clock.

I hope John adds pictures to this post of his similar wall clock, would like to see what that looks like and any others like it.
 

lesbradley

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I have borrowed the suspension gimbal from my other Grivolas for the meantime, until I can get one made. I have cleaned and fully serviced the movement and now the clock is running nicely with a Timesavers replica pendulum I already had. I will also have to source a flat disk to replace the Timesavers pendulum disk to be authentic.

I have attached a picture of it side by side with a GB/BHA four glass to give you some idea of the size of the case. It's impressive!
 

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John Hubby

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Les, great job of restoration! I'm posting photos of three Grivolas walnut case wall clocks, will add more photos later. First is the balustre one that yours reminded me of, it's a bit smaller than yours but the same flavor. It has a Grivolas mercury compensating pendulum (mercury tube broken :mad: ). Second is Model No. 545 wall clock with standard pendulum, this is in the Grivolas 1910 catalog. Third is an unknown (only photo I have) wall clock. All are unusually interesting and well made.

I also have two German (JUF) front-wind movement Grivolas in a JUF Mahogany with gilt trim, both the wall and table models but don't have current pics to post. Will do that later.
 

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lesbradley

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Thanks John, nice to see:)
Look forward to more. Seems like Claude Grivolas was prepared to put his movements in all sorts of requested cases for special order.
 

jkfabulos

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Latest addition. Very interesting designed case. Top is very non symmetrical and left side appears to have been cut or broken off but it sure looks to have been made this way originally to me. Bottom of door is symmetrical which seems at odds with the top.
Pendulum has no matching number but is original I believe.
Family swears this is the original brass key. What do you think?
Last picture shows movement mounted to the bracket with thumb screws. Is there supposed to be metal tube spacers between the bracket and the movement?
If so does any one have the measurements?
 

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lesbradley

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What a great find! Congratulations JK on finding such a superb clock. Where did it come from?

Have you looked inside the pendulum for other numbers? My first 1906 clock with ser. no. 111 has nos. on all pendulum parts.
 
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jkfabulos

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Came from Southern California dealer.
Inside pendulum is number 95 or possibly 96 on weights and top and bottom of disc. Stamping is very poor for the 5 or 6.
 

John Hubby

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Adding some photos of the upper bracket and upper guard per Jim's request.

Jim, thanks for posting and a superb example of Model No. 525 as shown on page 31 of the 1910 Grivolas 400-Day Catalog. This is the first one I've documented although have seen one other photo without movement info.

Yours was made in 4th quarter 1906 based on my data. This plate layout is the "original" from first commercial production. It doesn't have the work-hardened pivot holes that Grivolas patented at the beginning of 1907, those show up only on the 1908 production.

Couple of points, first the upper suspension bracket should be on the inside of the back plate and not outside as now mounted. Also, the upper suspension guard is missing, likely because you can't put it on with the bracket on the outside of the back plate. I'm going to be making a few of these shortly, if you're interested contact me off-list.

Regarding the movement support, these clocks originally had a shaped support bar between the support frame and the movement posts where the thumb screws fit. I'm attaching a photo of one of mine, note that the upper side of the bar is scooped out to just fit the movement post, and there is a largish hole that the thumbscrew passes through. The dimensions are the same width as the movement post, length is same as between-plate dimensions, and the height is just tall enough so the back plate of the movement just clears the movement support bracket. You could use a rectangular bar, the scooped out one does look better and firmly supports the movement.

I'm attaching two more photos. First is one of the correct placing of the upper suspension bracket. Note the bracket is INSIDE the back plate. That frees up the area where the upper guard needs to fit and also brings the suspension spring closer to the back plate so it won't rub on the half-round suspension guard loop. The second photo shows the upper guard in place, note that it is shaped to cover the fork and also fit around the mounting screws for the upper bracket.
 

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jkfabulos

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Are the screws that mount the guard a special style and thread size? Probably originally metric?
Thanks for the additional info and photos.
Best regards,
Jim
 
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Corina

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Hello and good morning to all..
i hope, i am right here. I am a owner of a Grivolas 400 jours pendule..but my clock dont work. i am really sad. may be somebody can help me.
at first..sorry because of my bad english..hope you can understand me.
My grivolas is a model : B.11-3234-5 and suspension spring is broken. i would like to replace but i dont know dimensions. i bought a reprint of the catalog from 1910 but my clock is not inside. Also missing is the hook end of the spring. can somebody help me to find these parts?
i will enclose some pics of my nice clock.
best regrads
corina
 

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John Hubby

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Hello and good morning to all..
i hope, i am right here. I am a owner of a Grivolas 400 jours pendule..but my clock dont work. i am really sad. may be somebody can help me.
at first..sorry because of my bad english..hope you can understand me.
My grivolas is a model : B.11-3234-5 and suspension spring is broken. i would like to replace but i dont know dimensions. i bought a reprint of the catalog from 1910 but my clock is not inside. Also missing is the hook end of the spring. can somebody help me to find these parts?
i will enclose some pics of my nice clock.
best regards
corina
Corina, thanks very much for your inquiry and posting the photos of your clock. Your English is just fine, much better than my German! The main reason your clock is not shown in the 1910 catalog, is that the wood stand is actually a "temporary" stand that was used for regulation of the movement and pendulum at the Grivolas factory, then used for shipping the movement and pendulum to a third party who would place the movement in its permanent case. Sometimes these were evidently not completed and can be found even in their original shipping boxes.

Your clock has the "B" design back plate movement, and was made in the 4th quarter of 1911 based on the serial number. For your information, the serial number NºB.11.-3234-5 can be read as follows:

The letter "B" designates the movement design. Grivolas had three commercial designs, "A", "B", and "C". Model "A" was made from 1906 to 1910, Model "B" was made in 1911 and 1912, and Model "C" in 1913 and 1914. No examples have yet been found to be made in 1915.

The number after the model letter is the year the movement was made, e.g. yours is "11" for 1911. No examples have yet been documented for 1907 ("7") or 1915 or later. Grivolas evidently stopped production of their own design movements in 1907, possibly due to a patent dispute regarding openings in the movement back plates to see the escapement. During that time and into 1908, they purchased German-made movements from Ph. Hauck and Jahresuhren-Fabrik to install in their own design cases and with Grivolas dials, in some instances with German disc pendulums and also with Grivolas design pendulums.

The next number is the serial number, which was started with something less than 10 (we have documented number 9) and then consecutively to the end of production apparently in 1914. Serial numbers have been documented from 9 to 5915, indicating that about 6,000 clocks were made in total.

The last number is a batch number that was used in the manufacturing process. Grivolas made their movements in batches of nine, and stamping the first in each batch with the number "0" and the last with the number "8". This has been conclusively proven throughout the entire production history.

Regarding the suspension spring for your clock, I suggest you contact Meadows & Passmore in England to obtain the correct suspension spring including the lower block or hook that is missing. Go to http://www.medmaw.com/ and click on clockmaker's supplies, then search for 400-Day parts. If you have questions you can email mpassmore@m-p.co.uk for more information and help.

One question, could you please provide exactly what is written on the dial below the hands. The first word is too blurred to read, but the rest appears to be "xxxxxxx des le Journal Le Matin". Thanks in advance for your help, a clear closeup photo would be much appreciated. Take the picture using the Macro setting on your camera without using flash and in a good light will be the best.
 

lesbradley

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One question, could you please provide exactly what is written on the dial below the hands. The first word is too blurred to read, but the rest appears to be "xxxxxxx des le Journal Le Matin". .[/QUOTE]


Looks like Offert par Le Journal "Le Matin" to me. I presume a newspaper promotion.
 

Corina

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hello again and thank you so much for all the informations. But something i can not imagine..the stand was using for shipment/transportation...with this glasdome??...mh..could imagine many domes get broken.But my dome is perfekt.
really, you are right..the other clocks in catalog really beautiful in theire cases. the wooden stand is a little bit ugly..but unusual..and i like it.
Yes..its written on dial " offert par le yournal le matin" i think it was a gift..and i hope grivolas did not made 1000s of these gifts.
i will enclose some pics..
and..big thanks again to you..i am really happy and will contact M&P
best regards
corina
 

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John Hubby

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hello again and thank you so much for all the informations. But something i can not imagine..the stand was using for shipment/transportation...with this glasdome??...mh..could imagine many domes get broken. But my dome is perfekt.
really, you are right..the other clocks in catalog really beautiful in theire cases. the wooden stand is a little bit ugly..but unusual..and i like it.
Yes..its written on dial " offert par le yournal le matin" i think it was a gift..and i hope grivolas did not made 1000s of these gifts.
i will enclose some pics..
and..big thanks again to you..i am really happy and will contact M&P
best regards
corina
Corina, thanks very much for the excellent photos. This clock evidently was intended to be an advertising gift from the newspaper "Le Matin". More than likely it would have been mounted in a nice 4-Glass crystal regulator case before presentation, in this instance that didn't get completed.

I mentioned in my earlier post that these have been found in their original shipping box, in fact I have seen one that included the packing materials, the original documentation papers, and a glass dome. It was consigned to a Paris jeweler known to have assembled and sold clocks from various makers with their own name on the dial or on a plaque mounted on the case.

Even though these clocks aren't "glamorous" like their siblings in fancy cases, they are quite collectible in their own right as part of Grivolas' history.
 

Corina

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Thank you too, John.
This afternoon i bought 2 blocks and i hope i will get them soon. I messured also broken suspension spring and what a surprise,of this size i still have 2 new Horlovar springs at home because i had to replace one on my nice old "Badische Jahresuhr". so i can use them for my new "old" Grivolas and hope to get it run. At first i will disassambly and clean because movement is very dirty and so many old fingerprints on backplate. hope i can remove them carefully with simicol.
i will let you know.
best regards
corina
 

jeagan

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Hello to all,

I have a clock much like Corina's that I bought in France. The dial does not have the writing above the winding hole. I am also missing the suspension spring and blocks.

John, can you please tell me the thickness of the proper Horolovar suspension spring to use for this clock?

Many thanks, John Eagan
 

John Hubby

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John, the standard suspension spring for a Grivolas clock is the Horolovar 0.0040 inch thickness. You should buy the suspension spring and blocks separately to make up your own suspension unit, do NOT buy any prefab units.

Also, will very much appreciate if you could post photos of your clock so we can properly document it. Full front, dial, back of movement, pendulum bottom, etc. At a minimum would like to know the serial number which will be in the format "A.9-2345-0". The first letter can be A, B, or C.
 
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jkfabulos

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Fancy case grivolas

This was listed on evil bay but for sale in a local antique store. It is not perfect but a lovely example in my opinion. Gilding probably redone at some time in its life looks extremely shinny in photos but is actually not so garish.
It is approximately 15 inches tall x 8 inches wide x 7 inches deep.
S/N 6111
Edge of plate 475 *
No numbers on pendulum but it surely looks correct and original.
 

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John Hubby

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Re: Fancy case grivolas

This was listed on evil bay but for sale in a local antique store. It is not perfect but a lovely example in my opinion. Gilding probably redone at some time in its life looks extremely shinny in photos but is actually not so garish.
It is approximately 15 inches tall x 8 inches wide x 7 inches deep.
S/N 6111
Edge of plate 475 *
No numbers on pendulum but it surely looks correct and original.
Jim, thanks very much for posting! This is a very attractive clock case that I've not seen before but in my view no question it is typical of Grivolas cases both for the German movement versions and the round plate Grivolas movements.

This movement was made by Ph. Hauck right at the beginning of 1905 and the Grivolas serial number 475* fits as well. The pendulum is correct for this movement even though there are no serial number stamps. The three clocks I have in my data with that were made before this one all have identical pendulums, also with no numbers stamped.

I will be posting later some new info regarding the dating of the Grivolas clocks with German movements. Briefly, it has been concluded that Grivolas could not have produced nearly 3000 of these clocks in less than two years (late 1906 to mid 1908) as we had thought earlier. This is supported by data from clock movements finished by Grivolas for J. J. Meister in the period of about 1903 to 1907, leading to a preliminary conclusion that Grivolas started his 400-Day clock business using imported German movements in French cases as early as late 1904 (this is the same thing done by Bowler & Burdick for all their clocks). This also directly corresponds with the manufacturing dates of the Ph. Hauck movements used initially that were made from about September 1904 through mid-1906, followed by JUF movements made from mid-1906 to the end of 1907.

If this thesis proves correct, then your clock was made about mid-first half 1905.
 

Roy

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Who made this torsion clock in crystal regulator case?

Does anyone know who manufactured this clock from a closed eBay listing? I cannot find the backplate in the Repair Guide. It looks like a Jahresuhrenfabrik except for the shield that protects the top block/fork assembly and the loop in the middle of the plate that guides the suspension spring. Perhaps those two features are after market additions. If so, then I think it is plate 1618. If anyone can confirm or refute I wold be grateful.

Thanks, Roy

http://www.ebay.com/itm/FRENCH-BRAS...D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc&_trksid=p2047675.l2557
 

lesbradley

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Re: Who made this torsion clock in crystal regulator case?

Looks like JUF to me, but I haven't seen one with the two suspension guards before, circa 1906?
 

Roy

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Re: Who made this torsion clock in crystal regulator case?

Thanks, Les. The Guide says 1905 if it is plate 1618. The two screws that attach that suspension spring guide don't match the other screws so I am betting they are aftermarket. Roy
 

etmb61

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Re: Who made this torsion clock in crystal regulator case?

The listing says GRIVOLAS, which is probably correct. The case is certainly consistent with their clocks. The movement is JUF, but the suspension guard is the Grivolas style.

I believe they assembled and sold clocks with other German movements as well. The pictures don't show them but there should be other markings stamped into the edge of the back plate.

Eric
 
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lesbradley

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Re: Who made this torsion clock in crystal regulator case?

The listing says GRIVOLAS, which is probably correct. The case is certainly consistent with their clocks. The movement is JUF, but the suspension guard is the Grivolas style.

I believe they assembled and sold clocks with other German movements as well. The pictures don't show them but there should be other markings stamped into the edge of the back plate.

Eric
Says Tiffany on dial, I am not aware that Grivolas supplied them. Certainly is a high end case. Clock 223 in the 1910 JUF is the twin but with an earlier pendulum.
 

jkfabulos

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Re: Who made this torsion clock in crystal regulator case?

I contacted the seller and it is a Grivolas and had the numbers stamped on the movement to indicate it was correct.
Mint condition but still a significant price.
 

Roy

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Re: Who made this torsion clock in crystal regulator case?

Okay, thanks to everyone, but I am still confused. Did Grivolas purchase the movement from Jahresuhrenfabrik, add the two protections to the suspension spring assembly, and then install it in a French case? I thought Grivolas was a manufacturer of their own movements, but evidently they were more than that.
 

lesbradley

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Re: Who made this torsion clock in crystal regulator case?

Grivolas started production in 1906, however shortly after there were some issues with their patents. Until that was resolved they bought movements from JUF and Hauck.
 

lesbradley

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Re: Who made this torsion clock in crystal regulator case?

Besides that German manufacturers bought upper class French cases to install their movements. I have a few of them in my collection from GB, Hauck, Wurth and JUF. I specialise in collecting pre WW1 clocks with rarer cases.

If you are interested a replica of the JUF 1910 catalogue may still be available through the forum. John Hubby should be able to advise.
 

John Hubby

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Re: Who made this torsion clock in crystal regulator case?

Okay, thanks to everyone, but I am still confused. Did Grivolas purchase the movement from Jahresuhrenfabrik, add the two protections to the suspension spring assembly, and then install it in a French case? I thought Grivolas was a manufacturer of their own movements, but evidently they were more than that.
Roy and all, I can postively confirm this is what we call a "German Grivolas", with movement by Jahresuhren-Fabrik (JUF), a French case, and dial custom printed for Tiffany & Co. by Grivolas. The Grivolas serial number *2794 is stamped on the left edge of the movement back plate, and the impression can be seen if the photo of the plate is enlarged. Based on my data, this movement was made by JUF in late 1907 and the clock finished by Grivolas about mid-1908, one of the last ones made by them using German movements. The highest number documented to date is *2930, the lowest is 99*. Note that the asterisk here represents a five-pointed star stamped either before or after the serial number. The star is found to the right on most of these clocks until about serial number 2500 when they began stamping it to the left.

This same serial number was also stamped on the bottom of the German design pendulums; we can't confirm the one on this clock because the seller check that and the clock had already been sold and shipped before the question was asked. However, the pendulum with the clock "is" correct. One point that is relevant to the "German Grivolas" clocks, is that to date none have been documented with a Grivolas design pendulum with matching serial number, whereas nearly all the German design pendulums documented "do" have matching serial numbers including both the Grivolas and German movement serial numbers. They also exactly match the pendulum designs being used by Hauck and JUF at the time the movements were purchased. The conclusion from this is that Grivolas bought the German movements together with matching German pendulums, and then stamped their own serial number on both. I believe when these clocks are found with mis-matched pendulums it is something that happened well after the clock were completed and sold by Grivolas.

Grivolas actually started making these clocks about November 1904 based on documented examples that have the Guillaume patent temperature compensating suspension spring. Guillaume very clearly worked with Grivolas in that development as the patent drawing shows the identical suspension blocks and spring clamp that was commercialized by Grivolas. The patent was granted mid-1904 and it appears that Grivolas was anxious to commercialize it. My opinion, supported by documented examples, is that he followed the business plan that was developed starting in 1898 by Bowler & Burdick of Cleveland, OH. B&B purchased German movements, French cases, and made many of their own dials and pendulums; Grivolas did exactly this same thing.

The first movements purchased by Grivolas were made by Ph. Hauck in the July-September quarter of 1904. As noted above, the first complete clocks were made starting about November 1904. Hauck movements were used by Grivolas from 1904 to the beginning of 1907. The last Hauck movement in my data has Grivolas serial number 1634 and was made in the July-September quarter of 1906. The clock it is installed in was made in the January-March quarter of 1907.

Grivolas had been developing their own movement design in 1905 while continuing to assemble clocks with Hauck movements. The Grivolas round plate movements debuted in early 1906 and production of these increased while the number of "German Grivolas" clocks decreased. It appears that Grivolas stopped purchase of Hauck movements by the third quarter 1906 believing they no longer needed to make those clocks. However, the production of Grivolas' own movements stopped by the end of 1906, we believe due to a possible patent dispute with Kienzle. This stoppage lasted for all of 1907, with production resuming only at the beginning of 1908. Following is what I believed is the reason.

Kienzle started their own production in late 1906 but had been granted a DRGM protection for pallet inspection holes in their movement back plates. Grivolas filed a patent in Germany for their own round plate movement design in late 1905 which did "not" have the pallet inspection openings; that was granted in early 1906. We have documented a number of Grivolas movements with this design, all made before mid-1906. However, they filed a patent addendum about mid-1906 with the pallet inspection openings, but this was not granted until late 1907. Grivolas had started production of their modified design just before mid-1906, but as noted production was stopped at the end of 1906 and not resumed until the beginning of 1908; the only logical reason for this would be that Kienzle protested violation of their DRGM and this was not resolved until late 1907 when the Grivolas addendum was finally granted. I think that Grivolas likely agreed to pay Kienzle a royalty to use the design, and Kienzle then released their objection and the Grivolas addendum was granted.

This problem thus required Grivolas to resume production of "German Grivolas" clocks in late 1906. However, at that time they switched to purchase of JUF movements. It may be that Hauck were no longer interested since they had introduced a number of their own patented features starting in the April-June quarter of 1906 including the chronometer style temperature compensating pendulum, the Hauck gimbal upper suspension bracket, the "Semester Uhr" 200-Day clocks, etc. Hauck had also discontinued supply of movements and clocks to B&B, Badische Uhrenfabrik, and Andreas Huber during 1906.

The first JUF in my data was made near the end of 1906, and the last was made in the January-March quarter of 1908. These movements were placed in "German Grivolas" clocks that were completed between first quarter 1907 and third quarter 1908. By that time Grivolas was back in full production of their own movements so the German movements were no longer required to support their business.

This timeline description of how Grivolas entered the 400-Day clock business is based on documented and dated examples of Grivolas clocks with German and their own movments. It is fully supported by independent databases for Hauck and JUF movement data, patents, trade advertisements and other information covering the period from late 1904 to the end of 1908. In summary:

1. Grivolas started his 400-Day clock business using German movements in late 1904.

2. Grivolas introduced his own 400-Day movement at the beginning of 1906, but production was interrupted for the full year of 1907, evidently due to a patent dispute with Kienzle.

3. Grivolas purchased Hauck movements made from third quarter 1904 to third quarter 1906. JUF movements were purchased from near the end of 1906 to first quarter 1908.

The combined production of German movement clocks and Grivolas movement clocks was remarkably constant from 1905 through 1908, as follows:

1905: German 920, Grivolas 000, Total 920
1906: German 480, Grivolas 504, Total 984
1907: German 980, Grivolas 000, Total 980
1908: German 450, Grivolas 530, Total 980

Grivolas continued manufacturing clocks using only his own movements from 1909 to the end of 1914 or early 1915. Although the company stayed in business after WWI and did sell 400-Day clocks having Grivolas movements, none have been documented with serial numbers after 1914 so it is apparent those clocks were "new old stock" made before the war. The last Grivolas trade advertisement known is dated 1924, it isn't clear when the company ceased operation.
 
Last edited:

Kamil Urbanowicz

Registered User
Aug 17, 2010
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What is the proper weight of an Grivolas pendulum - and a proper suspension spring for this clock?
I do got a pendulum like on the pictures which weights 308 grams - on which spring it will go?


a.jpg b.jpg c.jpg d.jpg e.jpg f.jpg g.jpg h.jpg
 

Kamil Urbanowicz

Registered User
Aug 17, 2010
280
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Thanks Ivan for reply 315 is really near this 307-308 grams - what spring Your Grivolas with 315 gram pendulum works on?
 

John Hubby

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What is the proper weight of an Grivolas pendulum - and a proper suspension spring for this clock?
I do got a pendulum like on the pictures which weights 308 grams - on which spring it will go?
Kamil, I weighed eight Grivolas pendulums of the same design as yours. The lightest was 331 grams, the heaviest 368 grams, average was 348 grams. Two of these were operating with the original Grivolas/Guillaume temperature compensating spring, the other six were with the 0.0040 inch (0.102 mm) spring. I think with your weight at 308 grams you may have to thin the spring a little to bring the clock to time.

It appears to me someone has removed about half of the weight bars in your pendulum compared to the ones I've taken apart.

Could you also post photos of the clock here?
 

Kamil Urbanowicz

Registered User
Aug 17, 2010
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Thanks John for reply - I will than try with 0.0038" spring first, and promise to post pictures when ready with movement again in a case.
 

gintarasb64

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Oct 1, 2012
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Last week bought Grivolas 400 day clock. The clock requires some restoration so posting at first only movement pictures. Unfortunately top block, fork and bottom block are missing. Disc pendulum have the same serial number as movement have. I read completely this thread and guess now that this is Grivolas with German movement - I am not sure is it Hauck or Juf. Any information would be very interesting.
Best regards
Gintaras

20171103_214417.jpg 20171103_214433.jpg 20171103_214441.jpg 20171103_214632.jpg 20171103_214651.jpg 20171103_214654.jpg 20171103_214727.jpg 20171103_214737.jpg 20171103_214805.jpg 20171103_214812.jpg 20171103_215843.jpg 20171103_215900.jpg
 

John Hubby

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Sep 7, 2000
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Last week bought Grivolas 400 day clock. The clock requires some restoration so posting at first only movement pictures. Unfortunately top block, fork and bottom block are missing. Disc pendulum have the same serial number as movement have. I read completely this thread and guess now that this is Grivolas with German movement - I am not sure is it Hauck or Juf. Any information would be very interesting.
Best regards
Gintaras
Gintaras, thanks for posting! You indeed have a "German Grivolas" clock, with the movement and pendulum supplied by Ph. Hauck and the case being sourced from French case makers. Your movement was made in December 1904 based on the movement serial number, and the clock assembled by Grivolas about August-September 1905 based on the Grivolas serial number 720. My research now shows that Grivolas started making 400-Day clocks using the same business model already proven by Bowler & Burdick. That was to purchase German movements and pendulums and place them in high quality French cases, using their own dial and sometimes other parts.

This business appears to have started near the end of 1904, about the same time Charles Edouard Guillaume patented his temperature compensating suspension spring made of one section of steel and the rest of INVAR. The steel section loses strength with rising temperature, however the INVAR is heat treated to increase strength with rising temperature over normal ambient temperatures. The lengths of each metal are calculated so that the loss in the steel section is exactly offset by the increase in the INVAR section.

Grivolas evidently collaborated with Guillaume to test the spring design, quite likely using movements made for Swiss inventor and clock maker J. J. Meister. In 1892 Meister had invented the first temperature compensating torsion pendulum using a bimetallic split-ring "disc" with adjusting weight screws spaced around the perimeter, and Grivolas was working with him from around 1900 up to 1908 to improve the operation of that pendulum design. When Grivolas started his own business, these springs were offered at additional cost on his German movement clocks. I have documented more than 20 Grivolas clocks that still had their original Guillaume temperature compensating suspension spring, which is quite accurate being comparable to Horolovar suspension spring performance.

Regarding the "German Grivolas" clocks, about 3,000 were made between the end of 1904 and about October 1908. Ph. Hauck was the first supplier of movements, I have documented these with serial numbers between 5300 and 13700, supplied between Oct. 1904 and Sept. 1906. The only other supplier was JUF, who provided movements with serial numbers between 54900 and 68000, supplied between May 1906 and March 1908. Grivolas applied their own serial numbers to each of the movements and also stamped them on the majority of the pendulums but apparently not on your clock. These numbers started with a low number, so far the lowest recorded is 99. They were applied sequentially but did not necessarily keep exactly in synchrony with the movement serial numbers. The highest recorded so far is 2930.

When you complete restoration of your clock please show us the photos.
 

gintarasb64

Registered User
Oct 1, 2012
228
26
28
Lithuania
Country
Gintaras, thanks for posting! You indeed have a "German Grivolas" clock, with the movement and pendulum supplied by Ph. Hauck and the case being sourced from French case makers. Your movement was made in December 1904 based on the movement serial number, and the clock assembled by Grivolas about August-September 1905 based on the Grivolas serial number 720. My research now shows that Grivolas started making 400-Day clocks using the same business model already proven by Bowler & Burdick. That was to purchase German movements and pendulums and place them in high quality French cases, using their own dial and sometimes other parts.

This business appears to have started near the end of 1904, about the same time Charles Edouard Guillaume patented his temperature compensating suspension spring made of one section of steel and the rest of INVAR. The steel section loses strength with rising temperature, however the INVAR is heat treated to increase strength with rising temperature over normal ambient temperatures. The lengths of each metal are calculated so that the loss in the steel section is exactly offset by the increase in the INVAR section.

Grivolas evidently collaborated with Guillaume to test the spring design, quite likely using movements made for Swiss inventor and clock maker J. J. Meister. In 1892 Meister had invented the first temperature compensating torsion pendulum using a bimetallic split-ring "disc" with adjusting weight screws spaced around the perimeter, and Grivolas was working with him from around 1900 up to 1908 to improve the operation of that pendulum design. When Grivolas started his own business, these springs were offered at additional cost on his German movement clocks. I have documented more than 20 Grivolas clocks that still had their original Guillaume temperature compensating suspension spring, which is quite accurate being comparable to Horolovar suspension spring performance.

Regarding the "German Grivolas" clocks, about 3,000 were made between the end of 1904 and about October 1908. Ph. Hauck was the first supplier of movements, I have documented these with serial numbers between 5300 and 13700, supplied between Oct. 1904 and Sept. 1906. The only other supplier was JUF, who provided movements with serial numbers between 54900 and 68000, supplied between May 1906 and March 1908. Grivolas applied their own serial numbers to each of the movements and also stamped them on the majority of the pendulums but apparently not on your clock. These numbers started with a low number, so far the lowest recorded is 99. They were applied sequentially but did not necessarily keep exactly in synchrony with the movement serial numbers. The highest recorded so far is 2930.

When you complete restoration of your clock please show us the photos.
John, thank you for very detail information. i will post additional pictures after finishing restoration. Can you take a look to my other posts which were left without your attention?
Post Your Concordia Clocks Here
Germania - History and Identification
Post Your Gustav Becker 400-Day CLocks Here

Best regards
Gintaras
 

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