Post Your Foliot, Anno, Columbus, ( _ _ _ _ ) Clock Here

Discussion in 'General Clock Discussions' started by Scottie-TX, Jul 19, 2008.

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  1. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
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    As both us suspect, is likely a nice reproduction. Dial is stressed to make it look old. A genuinely old one would bring a handsome price. One recently auctioned was bid extremely high until someone questioned about a certain bushing and whether it was plastic. The seller replied that it was plastic and all the high bidders retracted their bids and finally sold much lower.
    I suspect perhaps SELVA made this and perhaps 1970s.
    Appears to have a passing strike and probably with two wheels, very short duration. Nice acquisition. I've never had one of these but feel certain I could make it work.
     
  2. Nick Ryan

    Nick Ryan Registered User

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    Hi Scottie, yes definitely a reproduction and was bought as such, I do not like the dial, everything is metal, correct, it does have passing strike, it does not seem to have enough energy to clear the teeth as i rotate the arm from side to side.

    Can you tell me about the 'suspension' the string at the top, is it supposed to be just a loop or does it have to have a twist in it, or what?

    Regards, nick
     
  3. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
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    No twist. Ideally, just a plain loop. Also make certain verge staff floats in it's guides that it doesn't come to rest on lower guide if there's a retainer there.
    Hmmmmmm; "not enough energy to clear teeth":
    Do you mean the pallet flags are hitting teeth or it lacks enough power for the tooth to impulse the wag arm?
    If pallet flags strike teeth then wheel must be moved away from verge or vice versa. If power is lacking, I'd try eliminating pulley and move wag buckets to nearest center.
     
  4. Nick Ryan

    Nick Ryan Registered User

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    Ok Scottie, Hi, string now loopless, & fully floating-no stops to worry about. I found that the upright spindle carrying the pallet flags can be moved at the top and bottom pivot points to the left or right making the flags move differently in relation to the teeth, after minute adjustments it is running continuously, now to get it as accurate as I can.

    I have googled Selva etc, I cannot see it in catalogs or anywhere else, it is an extremely well made reproduction.

    Kind regards, Nick
     
  5. zepernick

    zepernick Deceased

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    Nick --

    I've a quite similar example, if without the bell function. Bought it at a flea market in Germany in the early 1980s. No makers' marks alas.

    Zep
     

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  6. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
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    Yeah, that's why I think SELVA made it. Their reproductions are of high quality. The SELVA I built from a kit - the more common variety pictured on the first page of this thread - also of high quality. All metal frame, all steel wheels, contrate escape wheel like yours, and a dial very reminiscent of yours and ZEP's. Even came with a small packet of dry powder chemical to purposely rust it. I didn't rust mine.
     
  7. Nick Ryan

    Nick Ryan Registered User

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    Scottie & Zepper, Hi, I don't think mine was a kit, all of the joints etc are riveted properly, there are no modern giveaways except 2 and they are the top and bottom bushes for the pallet spindle, i need to replace these the bottom is hardly worn but the top is very worn, I may use brass for the replacements.

    My clock is not just rusty but the metal surface has actually been eaten away to give the effect on the wrought iron of varying thicknesses the same as what actually happens when you hammer molten steel by hand, even the bell surface is not just rusty but thinly hammered in different places, the shop sold models must have had a lot more effort put into them, they really are a very high quality copy.

    I would love to get hold of a period advertising brochure copy? Any takers?

    Kind regards, Nick
     
  8. zepernick

    zepernick Deceased

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    Nick --

    Unfortunately, I tossed out a stack of old Selva catalogues about a month ago, thinking, "why would I ever need these?" I'm quite sure however that if you wrote to Selva, asking if they'd sold/made/had made the clocks, or knew who had, you'd get a response. I've always found them to be most helpful.

    Another possibility is to ask one of our MBers who is also active on the Deutsche Gesellschaft für Chronometrie's "Forum" if he would post a photo with the question on your behalf. For example, one might ask "Soaringjoy" (Jürgen) who will no doubt appreciate my volunteering his kind services :).

    Regards
    Zep
     
  9. soaringjoy

    soaringjoy Registered User

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    Hello, hello!

    Well, if not for pure coincedence, I wouldn't have stumbled over this
    thread in the next few years, I guess.
    So thanks a lot Zep...:cool:

    Nick,

    I just had a look at the Selva catalogues of 2009, 2010 and 2011.
    2009 and 2010 only list a kit of a "Swiss Bell Clock" at 190 Euros, which
    would be about 270 AUD.
    The clock is of a cheaper kind, not nearly as nice as yours.
    In the 2011 catalogue, however, there is nothing in that direction
    anymore, except for a (cheap) rustical iron Hermle.
    Nothing on the Selva online shop site (www.selva.de) either.

    Of course, foliot clock reproductions like yours are still being made
    and sold, especially in the Black Forest region. But these clocks are
    generally of higher quality, compared to the cheaper kits.

    Jurgen
     
  10. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
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    Selva also offered kit and factory built versions of the same clock. I departed from the instructions for mine by replacing rivets with nut and bolt assembly, installed brass bushings, and in general - made it a better clock.
     
  11. Nick Ryan

    Nick Ryan Registered User

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    Hi Scottie, do you have a copy of the plans I could get from you, and any advertising material, or point me in the correct direction for it. Any photos of your clock available?

    Kind regards, Nick
     
  12. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
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    #162 Scottie-TX, Mar 20, 2011
    Last edited: Mar 20, 2011
    Here are two of the clock and a brief history that was included:
    Well, I guess not. For some reason the site is choking on the doc. scan.
     

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  13. Nick Ryan

    Nick Ryan Registered User

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    Hi Scottie, many thanks, my clock is totally different in design, foliot shaft is mounted to the left of centre, it does not have the radial arms that your image shows. The hand is totally different.

    The image Zepernic posted is identical to mine so possibly another manufacturer and / or earlier. It is running like a beauty now as well. :)

    Kind regards, Nick
     
  14. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
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    Oh, I knew my clock was not anything like yours. Just wanted to share the similarities, few as they are.
    I hope perhaps sometime one will pop up for me that is affordable.
    Thanks for sharing!
     
  15. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
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    Hats off and a salute to the latest NAWCC bulletin!
    Oct 2011 Vol. 53/5 No. 394
    Featured there is a project clock in seven page detail of building one of these. Very comprehensive - interesting.
    While I sense many regard the replication of this interesting piece as folly or a novelty - I have always felt this interesting timepiece worthy of studying, building and enjoying as any other - not simply a novelty.
     

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  16. Jeremy Woodoff

    Jeremy Woodoff Registered User
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    #166 Jeremy Woodoff, Dec 12, 2011
    Last edited by a moderator: Dec 12, 2011
    I finally have more-or-less completed the Columbus Clock I showed in post no. 135. Scottie kindly sent an orphaned dial from which I salvaged the piece needed to repair my dial. Before I got to making a hand and foliot from Scottie's templates, a cheap parts clock came along, from which I got an original hand, pulley, counterweight, and two-thirds of the foliot, and I think the original rope. I made the other foliot arm, and have put on temporary foliot weights until I can find something better. Also, the drive weight is not the correct style. Here is a picture and link to a video:
    COLUMBUS
     

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  17. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
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    Thanks JW. VERY nice work indeed. Thanks for sharing. Tried to embed the video but site unwilling this morn.
     
  18. Burkhard Rasch

    Burkhard Rasch Registered User
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    Scottie,don´t know if this one is the right application form for this honorable club of Foliot,Anno etc.-owners,but at least it has Anno on it:
    One of my Christmas presents this year.It´s not running and I´ve heard that these can be nasty.Stangely a couple of pivots have been bushed allthough I cannot believe they were worn out by exessive use of the clock.I have the idea that a former "repairer"wanted to overcome other problems he didn´t understand with inserting multiple bushings but didn´t get it to run.So I´ll try my best,but certainly will be rescued by my clockmaker!Enjoy!
    Burkhard
     

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  19. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Nah, Burkhard - they're just a clock and I'm sure you'll have it up and running in no time! Probably pin pallet. They are sensitive to properly sized bushings, and the slide that keeps it tight on the "saw" needs to be fairly tight so it can't tilt. Fast pendulum, but mine keeps remarkably good time. Has to be in beat to run ... more so than most :)
     
  20. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
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    Congrats! Nice addition here and at your home. At first I was fascinated by these but over time has diminished. Sure. I'd buy one if it was inexpensive.
    Thanks for sharing!
     
  21. chockychocky

    chockychocky Registered User

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    Hi
    This is my first post so I hope it's ok -
    DSC06757.jpg DSC06758.JPG
    I bought this verge and foliot clock from a charity shop (in England) the other day: I had something similar in the 70's and this one runs just as well (!)

    It's from Spain and the maker's name is Gramans: it's made of a sort of plastic and I gather from a bit of research that it would have been sold as a kit: here's what I found:
    http://www.worthpoint.com/worthopedia/reloj-rustic-wall-clock-kit-by-gramans-made-in
    It says you have to supply your own weights, although mine has weights like on that original box.

    Here is someone else's that I've found some pictures of:
    http://www.lelong.com.my/vintage-antique-gramans-spain-primitive-wall-clock-91146471-2011-09-Std-P.htm

    I can get it to go for a while in that nothing is broken and it'll run. But it won't go consistently. I've tried making a heavier driving weight and that seems a bit more successful; I've tried it at different angles on the wall; I've oiled the pivot points...but it ticks along for a bit and then just peters out and stops. It ticks pretty irregularly, and the gear wheels are pretty mobile in their movements...it is probably just junk....but I'd like to make it go a bit better if I could. Is there anything else I might try please?
     
  22. leeinv66

    leeinv66 Moderator
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    Hi chocky and welcome to the message board! I have a clock the same as yours. If you have a look at the first page of this thread you will see it. Mine is a very strong runner, so I wouldn't call them junk. Can you post a closeup of the side of the clock showing the wheels? In particular, a close up of where the pins on the escape wheel contact the flags would be helpful. When you say the wheels a pretty mobile, do you mean they float backwards and forwards or they can move up and down?
     
  23. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
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    Yes CHOCKY; WELCOME! As for your clock - like any other clock - especially this one that is totally exposed to dirt and the environment, needs completely dismantled and cleaned for optimum operation. Also, I do not oil these clocks for that very reason. Oil on this clock only attracts dirt. If endshake is what you mean, "yes." wheels do have substantial endshake with the exception of one. The escape wheel should have minimum endshake. There are various reasons for beat irregularity but one source on these is the verge staff not being parallel to the scape wheel. That will cause the upper pallet flag to have a smaller or larger bite than the lower flag. In other words they will have unequal drops.
    I call the material delrin - a sort of dense, light plastic. Look carefully at pinion leaves and especially between the leaves as they are prone to cracking, leaving an open gap between leaves that will stop the clock. Consider also testing with wag buckets removed from wag arm. The clock will run with less effort and may help provide clues to why it is stopping. When problem is cleared, add buckets and begin tests with buckets positioned innermost. Unequal weight buckets can be a problem in even motion. To ensure they're balanced, lay clock on it's back when adjusting them and position them so wag arm is balanced.
     
  24. chockychocky

    chockychocky Registered User

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    Hi Peter and thanks for your reply: I've had a look at the first page and yes I've found your clock! I've taken a few photos of the gearing like you've suggested -


    DSC06761.JPG DSC06763.JPG DSC06765.JPG DSC06766.JPG

    The wheels both float backwards and forwards (as if they were going round) and up and down in their pivots. There is quite a lot of play in the hole at the bottom where the bar with the flags on it sits.


    Thanks for any help -
     
  25. chockychocky

    chockychocky Registered User

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    Hi Scottie
    Thanks very much for your welcome and reply!
    I see what you mean about oil: I need to say that I'm a total novice at this clock-repairing and I oiled it because that worked with another clock I have, which is a totally different sort of clock. I'm thinking I will have to take it apart: I'll learn about it in the doing and also the oil has spread rather. I also marked it in a couple of places with Tippex to see where it was stopping....and I don't think that's helped either.
    I'm sorry but I don't know what you mean by pinion leaves: are they the pins on the escape wheel?
    I did try like you suggested, running it with no little weights on, but it was the same as with.

    Thanks for all the suggestions: it's great to have some more things to try!
     
  26. leeinv66

    leeinv66 Moderator
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    Hi chocky. Yes, looking at your picturers, you have much more oil in the movement than needed. Like Scottie, I don't oil these at all. But if you do, you only need a drop on each pivot. The pinions are the little wire gears. Each shaft in a clock has a "wheel" the big gear and a "pinion", the small gear on the other end. There are two types of pinions used in clocks. Lantern pinions (the wire leaf type in your clock) and cut pinions (which are a gear with solid leaves). The ones Scottie says are prone to crack are the solid pinions, so I don't think you will find that problem in your clock. Once you get the movement clean, check the escape wheel and verge staff as Scottie suggests. It is very importaint to get the verge staff parallel to the scape wheel and to have minimal end float of the escape wheel arbor. Let us know how you get on and ask questions about whatever you are not sure of. Scottie loves questions:)
     
  27. chockychocky

    chockychocky Registered User

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    Hi Peter
    Thanks again for all your helpful explanations etc. I'll take the clock apart, clean it and see how I get on. At least I have a diagram which I found on someone else's page to help me put it back together, although I'll be pretty careful taking it apart and recording what I do. I have a feeling, looking at one of the big gears (the lowest one in fact, which has the rope around it) that a couple of the teeth are chipped, and it looks like that might be when the clock falters and stops. I'm not sure what I can repair the plastic with, but I'll take it all to bits and see then -

    Thanks again, and I'll get on with dismantling. It may be a while!
     
  28. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
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    Meshing problems are definitely a clock stopper. It is unusual tho for this material to chip tho you said it did so it did. How much weight are you using? Left side? Right side?
     
  29. coreywillman

    coreywillman New Member

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    please help with finding part

    Hello….I’ve been looking high and low for two pieces to the 1893 BOSTWICK & BURGESS COLUMBUS ANNO 1492 WOODEN CLOCK. I am in need of one metal acorn weight for the top piece and the larger of the two weights on the bottom. I’m trying to find them for my mother…her father owned a clock store in the 50’s and has acquired this clock from him. So…I’m trying to surprise her in replacing these two parts. If you have any resources you can pass my way, or have the pieces yourself, I would greatly appreciate your response. Thank you!
     
  30. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
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    #180 Scottie-TX, Jan 22, 2012
    Last edited: Jan 22, 2012
    Re: please help with finding part

    Here it is COREY. I've moved it nearer the top for easier finding for you.
    First of course, WELCOME!
    Next I can ASSURE you neither of these parts is being replicated by common suppliers but I'll try my best to assist. Can you post a CLOSEUP picture of the acorn you have and another picture of the single, small weight you have? If posting pix poses a problem, send them to me, mclkwrx@aol.com and I'll post 'em for ya.
    WELCOME and looking fwd to helping.
     
  31. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
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    Re: please help with finding part

    COREY? You out there, COREY?
     
  32. soaringjoy

    soaringjoy Registered User

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    Re: please help with finding part

    :whistle:

    Eichel0.jpg
     
  33. chockychocky

    chockychocky Registered User

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    Hi Scottie and Peter
    Thanks for the replies and advice. I've taken the clock apart: it was a lot easier than I thought it was going to be as I only had to take the front off and then get the three big cogs out. I then gave my precision timepiece a wash in the sink to get the oil and dirt off: it was pretty dirty altogether!

    The big cog with the rope around is pretty worn in that the teeth look like they've had a lot of use, the pinion wires are a little bit twisted round, and the hole in the little thing that the bar with the flags on sits in is a bit worn too: I think it's had a hard life! But anyway I've put it back together, and hung it back on the wall. It seems happier than it was, being clean, although it still stops whenever it feels like it sometimes. It seems to tick along for a bit, slow down for a breather and then get going again...but sometimes it's had enough of that and it stops! Hey ho -

    I have a cuckoo clock which needs to be at a particular angle on the wall, so I have this clock at a bit of a slant too, and it's ticking better like that.

    The weights which came with the clock are the ones supplier by the manufacturers and the big one (left hand side rock) is 770g (1lb 11oz) and the right hand side little rock is 120g (5oz). But it doesn't go very well with just that weight, so I've made a heavier driving weight which is 1kg (a different rock!). I figured it might go better with a heavier weight to haul the cogs round, and it seems to keep going better like that, although I have some instructions which tell me that this is too heavy? But I'd rather it worked -

    Right now it's ticking along in its own way, I've moved the hand around to 10 o'clock (10pm here in England) so it's saying the correct time, and thanks for the help!
     
  34. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
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    #184 Scottie-TX, Jan 23, 2012
    Last edited: Jan 24, 2012
    Again, it is very unusual for these clocks to exhibit a lot of wear as I suspect few ever ran very long and others may have never ran. I don't dispute what you see. Your new weight is not too heavy. One I have here - not identical to yours - by a different maker is provided 2.5lb and it needs ALL of it. My biggest concern now would be the sloppiness in the lower verge staff bushing. You might try however to close that hole. Perhaps experiment with a washer of smaller I.D. just glued to the original for purpose of test. If that is a big help, then consider how you can do this neatly and permanently.
    As for your varying motion and ticking, that begins to sound like a possible meshing problem and becasue it occurs over a short period of time - watch the meshing between the pinwheel and the one that drives it. Mark the pinwheel. Does it always begin struggling at the same place, etc.
     
  35. chockychocky

    chockychocky Registered User

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    Thanks for your suggestion about the bushing: I'd wondered about that and I thought I might try just putting a little bit of tape around to see if that helped.

    Thanks also for the advice about the weight - I'll try a bigger rock!
     
  36. Walt Wilson

    Walt Wilson Registered User
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    I've had the run fast then slow then fast then slow and it was a depthing problem with wheels and pinions.. (all of them). Usually not so much from pivot hole elongation but from tooth profile wear.
     
  37. chockychocky

    chockychocky Registered User

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    Hi Walt
    Thanks for your reply - the teeth on the bottom cog on my clock are pretty worn in places for sure.

    In fact I've had success today which I'm pleased about -
    I realised the lowest wheel was being pulled away from the next pivot above by the weight: the bottom cog teeth are pretty worn in places, and I don't think it was meshing very well with the gear above - not all the time, but enough to make it run irregularly and also keep stopping. The other thing which has been mentioned already is the worn pivot hole at the bottom of the thing with the flags on (sorry I don't know what to call that part of the clock): that bar was moving a lot from side to side as it moved backwards and forwards ticking -

    So - I have some tape here - it's actually very thin double-sided tape about 3mm wide, and I've used it in 2 places on the clock: I haven't taken off the outside layer, just used it because it's really narrow and it fits where I need it to go. I've wound a bit round the pivot hole thing to keep the bar where it's supposed to be, parallel to the front of the clock, and also stuck a layer of it round the thing on the end of the bottom cog which has the pins which drives the clock face round. That holds the bottom cog in place much more firmly, and I think just lifts it up enough to keep it meshed properly with the cog above. The tape is so thin and smooth it doesn't seem to interfere with the cog's movement.

    And so - the clock is ticking - really slowly in fact, but it hasn't stopped! I'm so used to clocks going tickticktick, and this one just ambles along tick....tick....tick -

    Now I'm gradually moving the weights on the verge further out to see if I can get it to measure the time right - it's gradually slowing down to the right speed!

    So I'm really pleased to hear it ticking away quite regularly now: thanks very much everyone for your comments and advice -
     
  38. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
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    The proper name for this escapement is a "Verge Escapement", perhaps the very earliest escapement. The part you call a bar is the verge staff. The paddles on it are called flags. The pinwheel is referred to as the escape wheel.
    If clock is running fast, you're almost finished as only moving the buckets outward will regulate it now.
    How's that rope wheel bushing? I've seen many of these heavily worn. Some are plastic inserts. Some have no bushing - just a hole in the wood. I have bushed these at times using brass.
     
  39. chockychocky

    chockychocky Registered User

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    The rope wheel bushing seems fine with my addition of a bit of sticky tape round the end. There is just a hole in the front plate for the part to fit in, and both parts are made of the dense plastic.
    I'm gradually moving the weights outwards: it keeps pretty good time really, just a little bit fast. I've moved the weights out a bit more and now it's just a little bit slow, but I have some coins I could cut up if need be just to add a little weight and see if that works.
     
  40. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
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    #190 Scottie-TX, Jan 26, 2012
    Last edited: Jan 26, 2012
    Ya might try this test also. I find operation optimum when arm is balanced. To balance it I lay clock on it's back and equalize weights' placement until arm is balanced.
     
  41. Speccy

    Speccy New Member

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    Hi everyone,
    This is my first post and i didn't want to start a new thread. I was hoping that someone could give me some advice with the missing wag buckets on my plastic/resin Graman clock. It seems in appearance very similar to the Linberg clock. I really just want to Know the shape, size and critically the weight. Any help would be greatly appreciated.

    Graman Clock.JPG
     
  42. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
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    Your post is perfectly placed here and of course - WELCOME!
    In all probability your buckets were made to look like wood with that plastic used to make the clock. I make mine from a 3/4" walnut board and tone them dark. The buckets are 3/4" X 3/4" X 1 and 1/4" tall. The buckets each weigh an ounce. It's not critical but if you err, do so on the light side. Better that they're too light. You can move them further out the arm. I weight mine with a 3/8 inch lead slug. I make the slug by casting in 3/8" O.D. brass tubing. Hole for weight does not pierce bottom. Stop short of bottom. Any thin steel wire thru the gap will serve to hang it.
     

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  43. leeinv66

    leeinv66 Moderator
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    Here is a picture of a real, authentic Plastic one:)

    Wag Bucket.jpg
     
  44. Speccy

    Speccy New Member

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    Thank you both for your help. It's so much easier when you know what to make.
     
  45. chockychocky

    chockychocky Registered User

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    weight1.jpg weight2.jpg weight3.jpg weight4.jpg

    Hi
    I've just seen your message about the weight design. I have the same clock, only in maybe slightly mose rustic style, and here are a few photos of the weights - they must be original. They weight 1oz each and are made of a rough metal cube with a metal hook through a hole in the middle.

    I put a few photos of this clock on this thread a while ago, and it's going really well now. I lined the hole under the clock face with copper sticky tape (like you can use for slot cars) and since then it hasn't stopped, and also keeps pretty good time. I just have to adjust it a notch on the face forwards or back every now and then, so really pleased with it.
     
  46. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
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    Indeed! I believe these wag weights are original to your clock. Many, MANY, reproductions of this clock were made by MANY mfrs. Their choices of wag weights varied widely also. I've seen MANY types including yours. Congrats on making it reliable and I like your idea for bushing the lower verge staff.
    CONGRATS!
     
  47. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
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    By popular request I share with you the factory brochure, a small 8 page booklet of their clocks, date unknown.
     

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  48. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
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    And . . . .
     

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  49. bearzworkshop

    bearzworkshop Registered User
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    I recently picked up an Anno at a thrift store that does not have weights or cord. What type of cord should I use for the weights?
     
  50. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    Mine just has a heavy cotton string. Heavy weight - like a five pounder or so.
     

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