Post Your Concordia Clocks Here

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dna626

German Regulator Clock:???:

Hello.
I have german regulator clock looks just like gustav becker. One the movement, it says Freibrug in schlesien and has a logo of UCEG in the circle. From what I've researched this clock is Freiburg United Clock Factory. Just wanted to confirm that and if possible, can you guys give more info?
Thanks

http://www.msu.edu/~leehojun/regulator17.JPEG
 
D

dna626

German Regulator Clock:???:

Hello.
I have german regulator clock looks just like gustav becker. One the movement, it says Freibrug in schlesien and has a logo of UCEG in the circle. From what I've researched this clock is Freiburg United Clock Factory. Just wanted to confirm that and if possible, can you guys give more info?
Thanks

https://mb.nawcc.org/images/imported/2006/02/1.jpeg
 

zepernick

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German Regulator Clock:???:

DNA: Greetings and welcome to the NAWCC Message Board. This was a mark of the Regulator-Uhren-Fabrik Concordia. The U and the C stood for the 'Uhrenfabrik' and 'Concordia'. The E and G stood for "Eingetragene Genossenschaft'or in its fuller form, Eingetragene Genossenschaft mit unbeschränkter Haftpflicht." a type of German company. Concordia, founded in 1881, was one of several firms -- Gustav Becker among them -- which came together in 1899 to form the "Vereinigte Freiburger Uhrenfabriken Aktiengesellschaft incl. vormals Gustav Becker in Freiburg in Schlesien" or VFU for short. Regards, Duck NAWCC 118804
 

Scottie-TX

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German Regulator Clock:???:

Pretty neat stuff there DUCK: I am INCREDIBLY amazed and impressed at your in-depth knowledge of these mfrs., their geneaology, etc. Indeed we are blest to have your presence and input. Thanks.
 
D

dna626

German Regulator Clock:???:

Wow.. Thanks Duck for your info. It is just amazing how you know all these stuffz man.
but I just want to clearify one more thing.. When you said "...which came together in 1899 to form VFU.." are you saying that UCEG and Gustav Becker merged to form VFU? So they are same company now??
 

zepernick

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Greets again DNA -- The firm that became VFU was made up of several firms, and among these several were Concordia and Gustav Becker. There's still a question of which firms (e.g. Willmann) were merged when. However. There was a previous MB discussion of all such which should show up through the "Find" above. Along with when the last so-called "Gustav Becker" clocks were sold using that mark and the like. Regards, Duck
 
T

Tkathleeno@yahoo.com

German Regulator Clock:???:

Hey Duck,

I enjoyed the info you provided too. When I look
at all the trademarks in Kochmann's book I am astounded by it and often wonder how many of these clock companies had an active export trade to the U.S. Since the majority of German
companies seen by me are the Beckers, Junghans,
Kienzles, HAC, an occasional LFS, Gebruder Resch, Lenzkirch,etc., it would seeem that the majority of the other companies didn't have an export program here. Please give me your thoughts.

Regards,
Brian
 

zepernick

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German Regulator Clock:???:

Greetings Brian -- What a really interesting question! Hope you don't mind some first-and-a-half thought thoughts.

I suppose we'd expect that expect that a ranking of German marks on clocks seen in the US would reflect, however roughly, the production rates over how many years of German manufacturers, their export goals in general, and their specific goals for the US.

So for instance we might reasonably expect that Junghans' marks would be among those most frequently met as they claimed to be the largest clock manufacturer in the world in the decade before World War I, they were also among the longest lived, and they tried to flog their clocks in all four corners of the world. Whereas Concordia of Freiburg (Schl.) which only lasted from 1881 to 1899 would be comparatively less seen and little noted.

Yet if it is probably a simplification, for several reasons

First, there's a tendency to underestimate the number of German clock manufacturers while overestimating the amount of information we have on them. Would encourage you to look at a copy of Schmid's superb (2005) volume _Lexikon der Deutschen Uhrenindustrie 1850-1980_, now *the* standard reference to German manufacturers. (The NAWCC Library & Research Center has two copies (and there's a review of it in the Horo Lit MB).

Schmid has some 2,170 clockmaking firms (firms, not clockmakers) in the listings section which gives basic information. And in a second section he has over 300 firms for which he gives fuller descriptions. That second section covers some 350 pages alone.

Yet for the majority of these firms we don't have information about how many clocks were made each year and how many were intended for export or were exported.

Then too, German clocks were normally sold to the trade (not directly to customers) through wholesalers or "Vertreter," agents or representatives. So in a 1905 report quoted by Kahlert it was noted that clocks which were to be sold overseas also were usually handled through Leipzig-based wholesalers. Sort of you could get anything you want at a Leipzig Uhren-restaurant.

A variant was having a "Vertreter" outside of Germany which would flog your clocks, sometimes along with other firms' there, and sometimes outside of that country as well.

Landenberger & Co. of London for instance were listed in a 1904 German "address book" as the Vertreter (agents or representatives) for Gordian Hettich Sohn, Lenzkirch, and VFU/Becker, as well as their "normal" representation for HAU. And London-based agents are said to have commonly exported German clocks to HM colonies as well as within the UK.

As another example, we know that (as of 1915) a firm in the US, Geo. Kuehl & Co. of Chicago, were agents for Mauthe, HAU, VFU/Becker, and Junghans as their US trademarks registration were through them. From the same 1915 trademark listing we also know that Kienzle had American agents, in NYC.

But I'm not aware of any US listing of all American agents for German firms. Nor do Geo. Kuehl & Co. show up in the German 1904 listings of Vertreter! And Americans firms could also tag clocks mede in Germany for them with their own names.

In short, I don't know how we'd establish how many of those 2,170 firms (1) had US-based agents at one time or another, or/and (2) relied upon wholesalers on the other side of the Atlantic or (3) didn't care about the US market or (4) wouldn't because of the high US tariffs.

Various German governments did of course report on export figures. You can find in old German clockmakers' trade journals a report for example from Baden on how Lenzkirch did with its exports in 1892. On the larger level there are German statistics that claim, for instance, that just before the Great War Germany accounted for 60% of the world's export market in clocks. Or that Winterhalder & Hofmeier concentrated almost exclusively on the UK and US markets.

Yet that type thing looked at, there are two further and nicely messy <G> complexities. First, I'd guess that most of the German manufactured clocks we see in the US today were
not exported by the firms or wholesalers or imported by agents etc. Rather, they were brought back to the US from Germany (or Europe) by American military personnel and tourists, and largely in the past half-century.

And secondly, certain types of German manufactured clocks -- cuckoos and 400-day clocks specifically -- are actually more common in the US than in Germany. This is somewhat amusing I suppose but it certainly skews the expectations of what one should expect to see.

Hereabouts every clockie knows or knows of some fellow who was stationed in Germany in those years in which the dollar was greener and shipping was supplied by Uncle Sam, who brought back a hundred (or two hundred or gobs...) of clocks. Clocks shipped in by container loads before there were containers.

There was a local auction here about a year ago for example in which 240+ German (industrial) clocks were auctioned off. Almost all were wall clocks and all were brought back from Germany in the 50s by a fellow who'd been stationed there.

Most were from "name firms" such as, well, those you mention. But there wasn't one single alarm clock, although ca1905 around 70% of all clocks made in Württemberg were alarms. Nor was there one cuckoo because the fellow was collecting mainly middle-priced freeswingers and German factory "Viennas".

Yet there are without a doubt more cuckoos in the US than in all of Germany.

But to circle back around, the largest German manufacturers in that decade after that last turn before the last of the centuries were Junghans, Kienzle, VFU (aka Gustav Becker), HAU and Mauthe. So all other things considered equal those are the names we'd expect to see most commonly in Germany, too, if we asked for the top five.

But then again we also notice them. At that auction the dealers were going through the clocks looking for Beckers and Lenzies -- brand names which would assumedly resell better because they were brand names. Whereas I was pleased (delighted actually) because there was one quite elegant "Vienna" from the Regulator Fabrik Germania of Freiburg which everyone ignored. And a big beautiful massiv grandfather clock from Etzold & Popitz.

Now let me have a second thought on your still very good question <G>.

Best regards, Duck
 

Hayson

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vienna id

I have a time only vienna reg with trademark consisting of a wheel with crown on top, Freiburg in Schlesien around the inside of the wheel and inside that a cross dividing the id of the wheel in 1/4's. In the quarters are the letters UCEG, reading from top left clockwise. Does anyone recognise this description? Can you tell me more? Thanks.
 

John Hubby

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Re: vienna id

Hayson, could you post photos of your clock? Full front, dial, movement back plate and in particular the logo and serial number. I am building a database for Concordia and other makers who merged into VFU/Gustav Becker in 1899, and both the photos and serial number info will be much appreciated.
 

Hayson

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Re: vienna id

Will do John. It may take a few days for me to get organised but it will happen.
 

Sooth

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Hayson

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Re: vienna id

You're right about it being a nice clock Sooth. The veneers are lovely and the whole thing speaks of quality workmanship. Unfortunately both ends of the adjustable pallets were extremely badly rutted so I had the task of re-grinding the impulse faces and polishing them. Also, a previous repairer had done some rough bushing which included leaving file marks on the inside of the plates. I couldn't bear looking at it so I spent a lot of time removing the marks, rebushing and polishing the plates. The finials aren't missing they're just staying safe at home at the owners place. Unfortunately I often don't get to see the clocks I work on fully dressed, as either people have the sense to remove things like splats / gables / finials etc or I advise them to do so in order to avoid damage or loss during transport.
 

Hayson

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Re: vienna id

Whenever I open this clock I am greeted by a lovely scent. Something like incense but not quite that. It's sweet and spicy. I presume it's the wood but not anything I'm familiar with. Would timber still be releasing a smell like this after 130 odd years?
 

John Hubby

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Re: vienna id

Hayson, thanks very much for posting the photos of your Concordia clock. I have only a small database at this time for these, but at the moment your clock has the highest serial number documented. At this time we have not found any written information about how many clocks this company made, but in due course will be able to know from data such as collected here.

Regarding the aroma you notice when opening the clock case, I have experienced that not only with clocks but with just about any very old timber cased object such as wardrobes, cabinets, trunks, etc. I don't know if it relates to the type of finish used, or perhaps to the hide glue that was used to assemble the objects, or maybe even the oils or polishes used across the years. However, it is certainly present to varying degrees and to me adds to the character of the piece.
 

John Hubby

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Re: vienna id

Hayson, once again thanks for posting and you have a really beautiful clock!! Hopefully in time I'll get enough data together to be able to date these beauties to the actual year made. Would be a lot better than "sometime between 1881 and 1899 . . . ".
 

Hayson

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Re: vienna id

John I wish it was mine! Unfortunately I just get to enjoy them while I work on them. Glad the info is some use to you.
 

John Hubby

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With this post I am starting a new thread for the posting and identification of clocks made by Uhrenfabrik Concordia of Freiburg, Silesia, Germany. Concordia was a company started by ex-Gustav Becker employees that made clocks very similar to GB models from 1881 to mid-1899 when it merged with several other companies including Gustav Becker, the Becker trademark being the surviving identity. They made up to 120,000 clocks based on preliminary serial number information. More information will be added as it is developed.

Also, other threads that include Concordia clocks will be merged with this thread to place all known information in one reference.
 

John Hubby

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The clock posted here was seen at a recent NAWCC Regional and photos were taken with the permission of the owner. This is a Concordia 2-weight Vienna style regulator with serial number 14070, indicating it was made about 1883-84 based on the serial number compared with total estimated clocks made by Concordia between 1881 and 1899.

14070 Dial.jpg 14070 Front Upper.jpg 14070 Front.jpg 14070 Logo, Ser. No.jpg 14070 Mvmt Back, Bracket.jpg

To date, not enough clocks have been documented to see for certain what types of clocks were made by Concordia. Two types are presently identified, a time-only single weight model and a time & strike two-weight model, among seven clocks in total. All of these have Vienna regulator style cases.
 

tarant

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Concordia from net auction. I'm not sure if the case is old. Hands like these were used by GB too.
Conc1.jpg Conc4.jpg Conc11.jpg Conc2.jpg Conc3.jpg
 

John Hubby

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Piotr, thanks for posting! This is the eighth Concordia now in the data, and it does fit in with the others. It would be nice to know for certain the second digit of the serial number, could be "3" or "8". I've chosen the "8", thus 38558. With that number my estimate is the clock was made in early 1887, if the number is a "3" it would have been made about nine months earlier in 1886.

The movement design is identical to other Concordias documented. I also don't know if the case is an original one, if so it is in spectacular condition. Either way it fits the period and is appropriate for the age of the movement.

From our data up to now it appears there were about 120,000 clocks made by Concordia, it is somewhat a surprise that so few have appeared on the market.
 

John Hubby

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John, that Vienna top looks eeeeerily familiar...

Below is a replica that I made several years ago off a very small and blurry photo of a similar top.
Sooth, first of all "Great Job"!! Can't help but wonder if the blurry photo you had was of the clock I documented at the Regional. I looked closely at the case details and it appeared to be original to the case.
 

Tatyana

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In my database there are more than a hundred movements, more than half of them are unmarked, most of those marked have the usual stigma with UCEG letters and a large crown,
but in earlier movements the crown on this signature is smaller, and also if you look closely, the teeth at the wheel go not down like the main signature, but up.

9_990_вверх.jpg


And, two more movements with rarer signatures:

- on one you can read the word CONCORDIA on the outer rim

1.jpg 2.jpg

- on the other the word MARKE and the letters have changed to UGCS

The last signature, despite the low serial number, seems to me the latest. I noticed that firms ending their activities often launched new numbering.
This movement is distinguished by another anchor bridge and the absence of technological holes.

2507 2_.jpg + 3508 (without a signature) 3_508.JPG


Among other things, a distinctive feature of Concordia is that up to 85 thousandth movements marking was common, and after 85_296 it is extremely rare (four movements).
The largest Concordia serial number in my database is 164_818.

164_818.jpg

Patents for clocks from Freiburg are rare.

1.png

Here is the patent DRGM 80851 Concordia from 1897:

154_723___.JPG 2.jpg 3.jpg 4.jpg 5.jpg

BR, Tatyana
 
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Orlando

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My newest acquisition. In the event Mr. Hubby is still gathering Concordia data. As you can see its a single weight movement. As soon as I get time to clean I will post additional pictures and any thoughts or issues I have while servicing it.

20200802_162845.jpg 20200802_160351.jpg 20200802_160348.jpg 20200802_160340.jpg 20200802_160343.jpg 20200802_160332.jpg
 
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Lightwater

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Hi everyone, first post. This clock my parents bought about 1990. It went back for regular repairs, never seamed to work well. I inherited it in 2008. Had a bit of a fiddle getting it vertical and some minor adjustments and it worked perfectly ok, until a few weeks ago when one of the strings broke. Luckily the weights were close to the bottom, so no broken glass, which looks original.

I have never pulled a clock apart, but thought I would give it a go. Got some new Vienna Gut. I did look at alternatives but decided to go original. Had to open up the drums to anchor the new strings. Pretty nervous about the whole process to put it mildly.

I was reluctant to clean the brass as I quite liked the rustic finish and in general prefer to leave things as they are, and it hid all the dents reasonably well. But, the last clock repairer had left sticky tape residue and it was starting to do serious damage. So decided to clean it up properly, cosmetically. I couldn't face doing maintenance on the gears at this stage. I just wanted to get it bad together and see if it worked. Luckily all ok.

The hands were looking a bit tired with a bit of surface rust, so thought I would clean them up, up to 5000 grit, about two days work, polish them, and heat blue them. I could see bluing on them originally, but the hands were not polished, they looked pretty rough up close. I could not get an even blue, not enough experience, actually first go at this, really challenging. Bluing the screws for the weights was easy. Where the clock is located the different colour bluing is not really visible and looks a lot darker, as per the overall clock photo. But now it is nice to visually catch a hint of blue from various angles. I'm happy with the result.

The serial number is 55566. The brass on the clock face, weights and pendulum have dings. Looks like at some stage in its life it hasn't been treated so kindly. But it does keep good time so can't really complain. It also has a really nice chime, not too loud or sharp, a nice "colour" to the tone if one can explain it that way. I like the case, not too over cooked or too visually heavy. I haven't done any maintenance on the case. There are a few minor things which could be fixed.

So next task is to pull it apart again and do some proper maintenance when I feel confident enough.

_MG_03520_125924.jpg _MG_0300_101817.jpg _MG_0314_060420.jpg DSC_0660_115814.jpg DSC_0659_115819.jpg DSC_0676~2.JPG _MG_0290_082407.jpg _MG_0332_104940.jpg
 

Lightwater

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Thank you for the likes. A couple of photos with a point light and a small soft light. This is more indicative of how the hands look like. The bluing imperfections still show, but under more typical viewing they are reasonably acceptable. But as pointed out in the previous post the hands in general look a lot darker due to where I have the clock mounted.

It was a lot of effort preparing the roughly finished and rusty hands, although fundamentally good quality hands, but I feel it has been worth the effort upgrading a rough bluing finish to bluing on a polished surface.

_MG_0358_075154.jpg _MG_0366_075150.jpg
 

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