Post Your Comtoise (Morbier/Morez) Clocks Here

Discussion in 'General Clock Discussions' started by Richard T., Jan 28, 2010.

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  1. Mike306p/Ansoniaman

    Mike306p/Ansoniaman Registered User

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    Stephen thanks for your (2) two replies. I know each clock was made individually and that no two are the same. It will be hard to find one(dial door) that works or will fit my clock case exactly, but one never knows. Thought I would ask as that does not cost anything. Besides, if you found me one I would have a large shipping bill, eh?:p
    I will try and get one, but most likely will end up making one. NO I will not cut a hole in the floor to accomodate the clock height of 9'2" ( if I recall the height). I know that you are kidding and I have it set up at my son's shop where we have 12 foot ceiling's .
    I do not recall if I stated that I acquired a crown wheel . Again with the exception of the clock dial door, I am all set . Mike
     
  2. laprade

    laprade Banned

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    Mike, here's another one, with external hinges. I forgot I had this pic. Note the door on this one is proud and not flush.
     

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  3. Mike306p/Ansoniaman

    Mike306p/Ansoniaman Registered User

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    Stephen, Now that looks totally like the one I have . Thanks for the photo . The dial door looks like mine and hardware too. :cool:Mike
     
  4. laumeg

    laumeg Registered User

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    Hi everyone, I finally finished one of my Morbier clocks. Information received from yall' (Texas accent) helped getting the job done. It is a fairly standard late model (1890 +) so nothing really unusual, but we like it.

    We had to take the movement apart to do a good restoration. It had rust on the gears which we used Evapro-Rust to solve the problem. It did an amazing job. What we thought might be unsalvageble gears turned out perfect with only minor wear. We had to replace the cords for the weights and then put it back together. No new bushings were needed. I purchased the book Morbier Clocks, History, Idenfitication and Repair by Lawrence Seymour to guide us thru the process and had little difficulty doing the job.

    The case on the clock still needs a good cleaning. The clock only strikes once on the hour. The does foot was either damaged or intentionally modified to make it strike only once. The clock runs slow about 2 minutes per day. But the pendulum is raised as high as it will go. I could solve the problem by modifying the pendulum to raise it still more, but it would take the pendulum out of center position which I do not want to do, so will live with it as it is. Thanks for looking, Charles
     

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  5. Mike306p/Ansoniaman

    Mike306p/Ansoniaman Registered User

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    Charles. A real nice clock . Thank You for posting. Mike
     
  6. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Charles, you could solve the timekeeping problem by adding a bit of weight to the top of the pendulum, to change it's center of gravity. If you add it behind, it won't be at all noticable.
     
  7. laprade

    laprade Banned

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    Charles, not all of them had the double strike. I have somewhere, a download of a comtoise price list, and it gave a choice of double or single.
     
  8. laumeg

    laumeg Registered User

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    Hi, thanks for the feedback. I will give it a try to add extra weight to the pendulum, higher up to see if that will make a difference. Also on the double strike, This was my first Morbier and not real familiar with the stike workings. My brother did the movement repair. It was not until I had it in the case and set up that I realized it was not striking twice. I cannot get a good look at the doe's foot to really see why. I dont want to take it down to just check. I had read in other threads that the does foot does sometimes get broken so that is what I assume is the case but do not really know. I do know the strike weight does not drop at the same rate as the drive weight. If it were striking double, it would keep up. But not matter what, I am happy with it.

    My other Morbier I will get posted when I can get it set up. It needs a high ceiling (9ft tall case) and need to get it moved to my country house where I have tall ceilings. The case on this one is really interesting so am looking foreward to getting it in place. Thanks Charles
     
  9. laumeg

    laumeg Registered User

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    Hi, I did finally get by other comtoise set up yesterday at my country house. Thanks for tall ceilings. The focus is on the case since the movement was discussed in my thread: Comtoise Morbier, original?

    The case is 9ft tall made of walnut, wooden pegs. Most notable is the long one piece door and the brass details. The bottom is open so the wieghts can go all the way to the floor. The top hood sits on top in notches and held on by hook eye hardware. what cannot be seen is the back which is also partially finished and not covered with typical base wood. The case is quite heavy as can be imagined.

    The movement is still thought to be complete from when it was made. There is no evidence that it has every been taken apart or even that the face and hands had ever been removed. I know this is hard to believe. My brother who is a tool and die maker and works on clocks stated he could not see more than 10 years wear on the gears. Many of the gears look as if they were just made. I did remove the face, did oil it and put it back together just as is. It runs strong. Charles
     

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  10. Sooth

    Sooth Registered User
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    Wow, that is an absolutely wonderful old case!
     
  11. laumeg

    laumeg Registered User

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    Hi. I could not pass up the oportunity to buy another fine comtoise clock. The auction house seems to be getting these imported from France since their other items are also from France. The first picture was taken by the auction house. I do not yet have the case at my house. I did pick up the movement etc.
    From my reading, this is probably called a "cog clock" taken from the rooster on the face plate. This is a very early clock, even earlier than my previous post. Features are: wooden winding barrels, tall rear tower for the pendulum suspension, spring detent on the strike train. It also has a double strike train, one for the hour and the other for the half hour. It evidences some excelent repairs in the past. There is a new bushing for the crown escape wheel. The "fly" for the hour strike appears to have been repaced(it has 4 wings as apposed to 2). I set it up and it works just as it should.
    The clock shows evidence of more hand toolling, the hands are hand cut, the front gear with the strike snail is hand toolled. The weights are heavy at 9lbs each and show early forms of molding. The pendulum seems it may be a replacement, it does not seem consistent with the age of the movement, (the round bob at the bottom should be smaller) but it does work with the clock. The side door panels cannot be removed without taking the clock apart.
    The case is unusual in that it is one complete unit. The doors can be removed from the hood, but nothing else is removable. It is 9 ft tall and has to be transported that way.
    I feel real fortunate in getting this aged clock in such good condition. I will get more pictures of the case when I get it home. I will not be able to set up the whole clock until I can move it all to my country house where I have tall ceilings. Hope you enjoy the viewing. Charles.
     

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  12. Richard T.

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    The fly is original. It should have four blades. Why do you think the pendulum bob should be smaller? Most that I have seen and the one I now have is approx 6 1/4" .

    The wooden barrels and the cast head piece with the rooster are signs of an earlier clock.

    Best,

    Richard T.
     
  13. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Charles, I'm jealous:D. My 8 foot ceilings rule out bidding on many clocks like this. Looks like it will compliment your first clock quite well. Nice find:thumb:
     
  14. laumeg

    laumeg Registered User

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    Richard, I went back and checked my information and comparing that with the size of your bob, we are both right. I measured mine and it is 5 1/4". Information shows that a folding rod with small bob was used between 1730 and 1830. After about 1830 clocks began using either the smaller or the larger. The change came with the use of the anchor escapement which was stronger and could use a heavier pendulum. This information taken from http://comtoise.caudine I was also comparing this pendulum with the one in my prior posted clock. see picture. It is different in that it is 5 ft long, 4 segments to its folding rod as apposed to 3 segments. This pendulum is only a little over 3 ft.
    My thought about the 2 bladed fly came from something I thought I remembered, but probably am wrong.
    I date this clock to about 1750. Two features point to a date prior to 1760. The tall rear suspension tower dates prior to 1760. The backword looking roster dates it to the time of Louis XIV and Louis XV. This info comes from "Guide to Dating Morbier Clocks" by Ken McWilliams, www.NAWCC. Another source that I use is: www.comptoise.org, view Dating Comptoise clocks table
    My knowledge of these clocks is new, comming after I purchased my first comptoise. I welcome the knowledge that others bring to this subject. Thanks Charles
     

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  15. laumeg

    laumeg Registered User

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    Hi, This is pictures of the case for the above posted clock. It is not as tall as I thought, It does slide in under an 8ft ceiling. Looking on the bottom, I do not see evidence of holes that would have supported turned feet. This case is really old, looks good from the front, but has had some restoration. The age really shows from the back, bottom and inside. The brass hardware hinges look as if they had been hand made. The bottom door hindges are large at 9" length. I cannot yet put the clock in it since I have to make some some supports for it to sit on. Supports slide into a slot made along the front, and then ride on a back rail.

    This case comes only in one piece, so bottom to top does not come apart. Pictures show both with and without the top doors on. Also shows the bottom door hinge and lock. Hope you enjoy these old clocks as much as I do. Charles
     

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  16. laumeg

    laumeg Registered User

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    Hi, Well the clock is finally together, but with some new information. The clock requires a long pendulum even though it came with a shorter folding pendulum. I had to make one using fishing weights at the bottom until I can get either a "old one" or a reproduction. Since the clock would require a taller case, I started really looking at the case, at the bottom and it has definitly been shortened, but quite a long time in the past.

    I wish that you could hear the strike bell. It has the clairity, almost, like striking crystal. It is hand forged and probably is bronze. I might try to get it on youtube, but have never done that. Hope you enjoy, Charles
     

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  17. Sooth

    Sooth Registered User
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    Charles: Nice early example. If you do decide to record it for YouTube, I would suggest a few tests with your camera, since bells don't tend to record well on them. You may need to stand a few feet back, unless you have a better microphone. Again, just try it and see.
     
  18. laumeg

    laumeg Registered User

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    Hi, Trying my hand at posting a youtube vidio. http://youtu.be/Bv2D6xT9fSA
    Seems to have worked, This is a recording of the stike bell on the above listed comtoise clock. My hearing is bad so I don't hear high sounds, thus I hear the strike train sound over the bell sound, but you hear the bell clearly ring after the strike stops. Hope you enjoy, Charles
     
  19. harold bain

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    Charles, it does have a nice resonance to it:thumb::clap:
     
  20. clockdude

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    Love how the clock has some "Reverb" to it as the bell sound fades out.
     
  21. Richard T.

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  22. laumeg

    laumeg Registered User

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    Hi, This is a Morez movement, small size, in a Breton style case. I listed it in another thread, but thought it would be better here. The case seems to be a marrage of 2 parts, the top which just sits on top of a base. The top seems much older than the bottom. Since the movement is wind up the bottom section is set up inside with shelves. Breton style furnature is made in a region of western France and known for it carvings.

    The small Morez movement is in good condition and is working. It will need to be taken apart for a good cleaning. It is mounted on a platform in the top. It would have had a wire gong which is missing.

    The face is enamel over a copper backing, (quite thin), this is then attached to a stronger false plate which is attached to the movement frame. The number plates are ceramic backed with brass designs. Many of these are loose and are attached in the back. Over all the face is in fair condition, but because the brass backing is thin and easily bends, the enamel at the edges has dammage and will need restoration.

    Overall I am pleased with this unusual styled clock. Charles
     

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  23. laumeg

    laumeg Registered User

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    Hi, adding a few updates and corrections. Attached is a picture of the top with the clock in place. At present the clock is running with the pendulum in place. You may be able to see the glass in the door. This is some of the oldest wavie and bulbled glass I have ever seen. All the glass is original, even the side plates.

    My original statement that I thought the top was much older must be incorrect. The small "bullet hole" window placment does point to it being made for this movement and these movements are not that old in relative terms. Also I stated the numbers on the face are porcilen. This is incorrect, they are likewise enamel on copper. Also I said the base has shelves. Looking closer I believe these were added sometime later and not original. It probably was just a hollow case. Charles
     

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  24. Jeremy Woodoff

    Jeremy Woodoff Registered User
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    I believe some Paris-style tall case clocks had a similar arrangement. There was a bracket clock movement and case sitting atop a matching pedestal that served no purpose except to hold up the clock. Charles has a provincial example of this type.
     
  25. laumeg

    laumeg Registered User

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    Thanks Jeremy, Your information helps me understand what I see in this clock. I was beginning to think that it was a marrage of sorts, however the more I look at the base, the old wood would be similar in age to the top. It has been rebuilt some in the past. Also the door never was really meant to be used. It is held shut with just a little wire hook, goes thru a hole in the frame and peged in the back. Thanks again for the information. Charles
     
  26. laumeg

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    Hi. I am inclosing a simple study on the clock case I listed above as having a Breton Style case. Eventhough this is the way it was listed by the Auction House, I am not sure that is correct. I have found a better correlation in style with what is called a Normandy clock.
    Picture 2 below shows a style of carving found it Breton clocks and furnature. It often portrayed people and life style customs. I do not see that style of carving on my clock.
    (picture taken from the Internet from; the gatz.com)
    Picture 1 is a picture of a Normandy clock. (Picardy Longcase, Antique clocks of Kildonan, from the Internet). This clock shows a small pendulum clock sitting atop a narrow pedistal case. Normandy clocks style is evidenced by narrow strait sided cases, some with a small bullet hole window for long penulum clocks.
    I am hopeing that some one may have further knowledge or insight about my observations. Charles
     

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  27. laumeg

    laumeg Registered User

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    Hi, I am now getting close to understanding the clock listed above as a Breton. With further research and feedback from others, I now believe it to be a Saint-Nicolas d'Aliermont case. Attached is picture as it fully stands with the Morez movement.
    I also believe that the small Morez movement is not original to the case. Several things point in that direction, one being the face is not perfectly centered in the face opening. In reading about these clocks, there seems to have been a movement that used a short pendulum, but was weight driven.(various web sites mention this but do not give further information.) Does anyone know what kind of movement that might be. From my knowledge all the Morez movements were spring wound, and Morbier's have long pendulums. Thanks for all feedback and information Charles
     

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  28. Kinpol

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  29. MOREZ

    MOREZ Registered User

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    Best Regards, here I show some of my watches comtoise
    kio002.jpg kio004.jpg kio005.jpg kio001.jpg kio009.jpg kio010.jpg kio011.jpg kio012.jpg
    kio013.jpg morezbanjo016.jpg caja673.jpg caja669.jpg horloge026.jpg horloge020.jpg horloge012.jpg horloge024.jpg
     
  30. harold bain

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    Hi, Morez, welcome to the message board. Thanks for posting these pictures of your very fine collection. Some extremely beautiful clocks:thumb::thumb:.
     
  31. Richard T.

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    Hello Morez,

    Welcome and thanks for sharing your exceptional clocks!

    Best Regards,

    Richard T.
     
  32. MOREZ

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    #132 MOREZ, Aug 26, 2012
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    hello, thank you very much greetings Harold and Richard, here some more photos
    soley010.jpg soley007.jpg soley015.jpg soley022.jpg soley017.jpg soley041.jpg
    morez013.jpg morez010.jpg morez005.jpg morez018.jpg morez022.jpg morez027.jpg morez025.jpg morez021.jpg
    oiu002.jpg oiu001.jpg
     
  33. laumeg

    laumeg Registered User

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    Hi Morez, nice clocks. Thanks for sharing them. I earlier posted my newest comtoise, but I am seeking other information about it. The question is about the face. I believe this type face is called a cartouche and does date to the 1740s. In the center of the bronze face is a immage of a person in profile. I have come to believe that this is probably an immage of King Louis XV. I posted a couple pictures of a Louis xv coin for comparison. Other design characteristics are similar, and often associated with royalty {see back of coin). In my limited knowledge and research, I did find a similar type face that had a person image, but it looked to be a woman. Does anyone know about another documented comtoise face like this. The fronton is the rooster looking back, but contains design in the center associated with King Louis xv, (see back of coin). The large bronze arched back plate is original, with all parts of the face being attached to a heavy metal back plate. All together it is quite heavy. The case is tall and slinder, 9ft and in the Normandy style. The hands are hand made but to me quite crudely made, but original. They are made of thin brass backed by hard metal. The clock movement has all the characteristics of a very early movement. I do hope that someone with more knowlege can help shed some light on this interesting clock. Thanks Charles
     

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  34. Richard T.

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    Hello Charles,

    Your photos of the coin don't enlarge so it's hard to see any detail.

    Best,

    Richard T.
     
  35. laumeg

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    Hi, I think I have answered most questions posed above. However I will put all my info on this clock in this one post so it is all together for future research or information on these clocks. 1. The question about the King Louis XV face is probably correct but not that unusual. I did find another similar face on Comtoise.com. Loyalist symbals were common on the faces of the clocks at this time. 2. Is the face arrangement authentic. Response from the Comtoise Museum said no, that it was a later addition. However other information leads me to believe it original. 3. The clock movement is a small movement. It measures 81/2 inches in width rather than the normal size of 91/2 inches. Comtoise.com reports a small clock being made in the Haut-Saone region at the time, 1740s. 4. The face arrangement is the result of trying to fit standard size components to a small movement. The rooster fronton is 91/2 in. at widest point. The cartouche face is 9 in. in diamiter. These were attached to the smaller 81/2 clock frame by means of the arched brass plate. Looking from the back side, one can see the smaller front plate that goes on the clock. The cartouche face is attached by means of small nuts that attache all the ceramic numbers. Observation shows no extra holes or replaced nuts that would indicate a later attachement. The whole face arrangement is attached by 2 screws to the clock frame. 5. The arrangement of the face makes a very nice fit with the shape of the case. The case is unusually narrow, 13 ins thru the body of the case and 15 ins at the base. Possibly this smaller clock may have a shorter pendulum swing that can be accomodated by this case. At this time the clock needs repair and is not running to determine what pendulum it will need. 6. Certain qualities of the clock movement seem to have less quality workmanship and this is apparently noted for clocks from the Haut-Saone region. This is especially evident in the hands of the clock. This is all I know, I will attache a few extra pictures. Thanks for your interest. Charles
     

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  36. laumeg

    laumeg Registered User

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    Hi, Since I mentioned above that this clock was smaller, thought I would put side by side pictues with one of my more standard size clocks. The comparison clocks has the rooster front with ceramic face and so dates close in time to the clock in question. The smaller clock is 81/2 in X 9 ins. The standard is 91/2 x 101/2 ins. In the gearing they seem to be the same size and same number of teeth, but more compat in arrangement. This smaller clock had a weight cord smaller and lighter and the weights are 2 lbs. less. If anyone knows more about this smaller version, I would appreciate it. The first pictures are the smaller, and after pictures are the standard size. Charles
     

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  37. MOREZ

    MOREZ Registered User

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    hello greetings, here I show my latest acquisition. with shell and dragons
    yty031.jpg yty027.jpg yty025.jpg yty004.jpg yty014.jpg
     
  38. laumeg

    laumeg Registered User

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    Hi Morez, nice clock, thanks for showing it to us. charles
     
  39. MOREZ

    MOREZ Registered User

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    hello, thank you very much greetings, charles:)
     
  40. Richard T.

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    Great clock! Thanks for posting.
     
  41. laumeg

    laumeg Registered User

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    Hi, Finally need to give a final update on this clock. It is now up and running, but very difficult to set up in the case. All the information and pictures given here and in other threads remains acurate. The clock does use the tri-fold pendulum pictured, but uses the largest diamiter disk that I can find recorded. It is very light in weight. It is 3 1/2 ins in length. It has a pendulum swing of only 2 1/2 ins. 2 ins from tic to tock and 1/2 ins overswing. This allows it to sit in the case which is only 13 ins wide tru the center. I did have a near catastrophy when setting up the clock which was not well anchored to the wall, it started to fall over and the movement tumbled out but fell on a stuffed chair and did only minor dammage. It had the face and back plate removed so was quite exposed. The shaft on the verge broke loose, but it had been repaired in the past, but not well done. We were able to restore it to original. The lever has a very small square hole which has a press fit onto a square shaft end on the verge. We silver soldered it for security. The case is now well anchored to the wall.
    The case has a very insecure seat arangement which also contributed to the fall. I had to make this more secure by doing so glue work to hold it better in place. It consistes of 2 L shaped holders that sit in a slot in the back and then rest on a slot at the front. These were not close fit and so allowed for alot of movement.
    To put it all togeter this clock dates to about 1740, has a style of face that predates the enameled faces. It has a small movement which is reported in some web sites, and is more associated with the early one hand comtoise. It has very early use of the tri-fold pendulum, but is consistent with the literature. The brass back plate to the face and front are unusual, but are original, and it seems that it was used to attach the face and front to a smaller clock movement. The case seems to have been made for this small movement, since it is too narrow to accomodate the wider pendulum swing found in the larger movements. All in all a beautiful and striking looking clock. Charles
     
  42. gerene

    gerene Registered User

    Sep 9, 2010
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    I tougth I might post the comtoise I just repaired and 'restored'.

    Jan

    IMG_2686.JPG IMG_2723.JPG IMG_2728.JPG IMG_2729.JPG
     
  43. laumeg

    laumeg Registered User

    Jan 22, 2011
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    Hi gerene, nice clock and nice restoration. It has a verge escapement, spring suspension with pendulum in front of the weights and tri-fold type pendulum. These characteristics would put a date of about 1850. Charles
     
  44. laumeg

    laumeg Registered User

    Jan 22, 2011
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    Hi, having seen gerene's clock, noticed I had not put up final pictures of my previous posted clock. Final details are that this case is 9 ft tall with only 13 inches wide thru the center. The pendulum has a 4 1/2 in. diamiter brass disk, tri-fold type. My first thought there is not enough room for the pendulum swing. But in fact it does swing only 2 1/2 inches, enough room. It runs well but is sensative to being in perfect beat. The strike is operatonal but needs extra weight about 3 lbs more. There was a repair to a gear pivit on the strike side and this may have caused some extra tightness. Since I only run this clock for demonstration, I will leave it as it is. Charles
     

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  45. gerene

    gerene Registered User

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    Thanks for the compliment ;). This is my first clock restoration and I am quite happy about it. It does not have a spring suspension, but the pendulum is suspended on a string. Here is a detailed picture of it (before restoration).

    I agree with your estimate, I would put it between 1830 and 1850.

    Best regards,

    Jan

    IMG_2645.JPG
     
  46. laumeg

    laumeg Registered User

    Jan 22, 2011
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    Hi. Thanks for the close up picture. That is an unusual arrangement for a string suspension. The question I have is this the original arangement or a later modification. I suspect it is a modification. Silk string suspensions were done by means of a tower on top of the clock, first in the back and later moved to the front. I posted a picture of a clock like yours, borrowed from Lawrence Seymour's book. Later the tower was replaced with a spring suspension bolted to the top in the same place. Evidence for this would be 2 holes in the top. It looks as if your string connection is off center, using one of these holes. I see no reason why it would not work the way you have it. If I were to leave it that way, I would run the string thru both holes so as to allign the suspension in the center. Also obtaining a replacement part probably would not be difficult. Charles
     

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  47. gerene

    gerene Registered User

    Sep 9, 2010
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    It is unusual and I don't know if it is original. I cannot find any example of it in the literature I have. There are 2 holes in line in the center of the clock, one behind the other. I choose to leave it the way it was, running the string thru both holes as shown in the attached picture. The clock is running fine.

    Could it be that there was a suspension spring attached in some way using those holes in the top plate?

    Jan

    IMG_2685.geschaald.JPG
     
  48. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    The trapeze suspension is more often seen in German clocks, and still used in cuckoo clocks. Perhaps indicates some German influence on the maker of your clock. I would say it's very likely original.
     
  49. laumeg

    laumeg Registered User

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  50. gerene

    gerene Registered User

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    I looked carefully and can't find any scratches or marks around the holes. The holes are not tapped. No apparant evidence of a missing suspension. So I guess it is supposed to be this way.

    Thanks for all the information.

    Jan
     

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