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  1. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    #1 musicguy, Jan 15, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 15, 2020
    There isn't a consolidated thread on this forum for just "American Made
    Chronographs ". Most of these Chronographs are 7 jewels but there are higher jeweled ones
    including a 10j and The New England Watch Co.model in 17j.
    There are also the Dan Patch Chronographs made by NYS and NEWC as well
    and other chronograph makers as well.

    Please also share yours as well in this thread. Thanks

    I will start with my most recent purchase.
    This is a 1st Model Open Face 7 jewel 18 size New York Standard Chronograph(and pocket watch)
    with enamel dial with Roman Numerals and lever set. I believe it's
    circa 1905-1908(someone can correct me if I'm wrong).
    I liked this particular one because this one has Roman numerals(plus it's 18s)
    and most that I've seen have arabic numerals.
    I picked this one up for a best offer of $100.00(with free shipping)

    It works perfectly and keeps great time.

    First press of the crown starts the sweep second hand, Second press
    of the crown stops it, third press brings the sweep hand back to 12.

    (click on images to enlarge)
    NYS8.jpg NYS4.jpg
    NYS2.jpg NYS1.jpg

    It says in their advertisements

    "This New York Standard Chronograph is the
    only one made in America and the only one
    fully guaranteed. For sale by all jewelers"

    "For Laboratorial work, experimental work,
    photographic purposes, electric and telephone
    usage. For refiners and compounders of oils, etc.
    For physicians, surgeons, and Nurses, and for the exact timing
    of all events."

    "The only Scientific watch" made in America the
    New York Standard "Chronograph" - New York standard
    watch Co., 401 Communipaw Ave., Jersey City"


    The New York Standard watch company was first incorporated in 1885 and operated in
    Jersey City, New Jersey. They were primarily a producer of lower grade watches that sold
    under various brand and model names.


    Advertisement from Scientific American 1907 and movement images
    supplied by member Dave T
    NY Standard chrono (2).png NY Standard 18s 165 2 (2).jpg

    NY Standard 18s 165 1 (1).jpg NYSmmm.png

    U;'lkntitled.png




    Rob
     
  2. richiec

    richiec Registered User
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    Here is my Waltham 1884, 13 jewel hunter movement in an open face case. the movement was made about 1887. it is in a Crescent case that appears to be original to the movement. At one time I had a NYS chronograph but sold it at a mart about 5 years ago.

    IMG_4625.JPG IMG_4626.JPG IMG_4627.JPG IMG_4628.JPG IMG_4629.JPG
     
  3. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    richiec, beautiful movement on that one!


    Rob
     
  4. luvsthetick

    luvsthetick Registered User

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    Since Rob posted his 18s New York Standard, I thought I would post my 16s New York Standard. I purchased mine as a non-runner simply to have to dismantle and study. I quickly realized it was actually in great shape, just very dirty. After a COA it works great.

    DSC_0010a.jpg DSC_0006a.jpg

    I did not know who the previous owner (and probably the original owner) was until I received the watch as the seller did not have any case pictures in the listing.

    An internet search turned up some interesting history about the engraving on the case rear. Read about where this watch was used on the Wyoming State Historical Society site (Boom, Bust and After: Life in the Salt Creek Oil Field | WyoHistory.org).

    I wonder if this is the only NYS chronograph they had or one of several and what they used it for.

    DSC_0007.JPG
     
  5. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Rob,

    This looks like an oscillating pinion type, first patented by Eduard Heuer in 1887, but not clear whether this patent is acknowledged.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
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  6. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    Thanks Graham,

    I didn't look to see if I could find it yet(it's on my to do list) but the
    18s NYS above has a patent date on the movement of Mar 22 1904.
    I'm not sure if that has anything to do with the Eduard Heuer one you reference,
    maybe someone can find it before I do.



    Rob
     
  7. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Rob,

    Something wrong with your attachments. I'm having trouble with attachments too, getting error messages regarding permissions, and then when I try to delete them, they aren't there. Has something come unplugged?

    The Heuer oscillating pinion was the subject of a US patent #377896, dated February 14th 1888.
    (This would have been an image of said patent).
    EDIT: Ah, now it's worked!

    Regards,

    Graham

    377896 diag.JPG
     

    Attached Files:

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  8. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    #8 musicguy, Jan 16, 2020
    Last edited: Jan 16, 2020
    Second try(deleted post above I couldn't get images to function)

    Here is the later patent used on some 16s NYS chronograps
    G. Nutting Watch Movement Patented Dec 22 1908 #907,170

    NYSpat.png NYSpat2.png

    NYSpat3.png NYSpat5.png

    nyspat4.png

    EDIT: An example of the Watch Movement Patented Dec 22 1908 posted here
    by Jim H. and I believe luvsthetick example above to(even though his is not marked)

    The Story of the Dan Patch Watches


    Rob
     
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  9. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    Hi Rob,

    The Nutting patent certainly includes an oscillating pinion, presumably it was sufficiently different for it not to clash with Heuer's earlier #377896.

    Regards,

    Graham
     
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  10. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    The NYS Chrono above had a plastic crystal and
    I sent my case to Dave's Watch Parts to fit a proper glass crystal to
    it. It came back today(with one for a 4992b as well). There is
    nothing like a beautiful brand new glass crystal vrs a plastic one.
    It looks soooo clear and it increases the overall weight of the case which
    I like as well.(thanks Dave's Watch parts!) They have a great inventory
    and I don't want to try and order the right size(done that too).

    20200206_183616.jpg


    Rob
     
  11. Ethan Lipsig

    Ethan Lipsig Registered User
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    I only have one U.S.-made chronograph, this 14k Waltham hunter, which also is a five-minute repeater.

    DSC04294.JPG DSC04304.JPG DSC04305.JPG DSC04334.JPG DSC04310.JPG DSC04312.JPG DSC04313.JPG
     
  12. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    Very Nice!



    Rob
     
  13. artbissell

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    This will be a short list. And those were Swiss designs? Here an original gold cased one and production prototype. artbissell
     
  14. artbissell

    artbissell Registered User
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    #14 artbissell, Feb 9, 2020
    Last edited: Feb 9, 2020
    I intended to cancel preceding since I have only the Swiss designed and assembled in NYC Walthams,. Tom Macintyre may confirm this. I am not sure where parts were made. However, a best example from Waltham here I am glad to see from Ethan. artb
     
  15. Mark Kauzlarich

    Mark Kauzlarich Registered User
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    A lot of great chronographs here and in my thread about American complications as a whole. I’ve finally decided after reading that I needed to buy a few of my own. Here is the first of three.

    An early 1900s New York Standard Watch Co. chronograph in a Silverode case. I measured and thought it came out as 16s but it looks identical to (if the movement looks more worn than) @musicguy’s example, save for the bits of gold finish, so I imagine it’s the 18s.

    3DEEE8AB-7B8B-4721-A4CF-2C1DA13F8190.jpeg 3707B23C-0109-4867-A042-076F4EDEB574.jpeg 90C14A87-DD5E-4AB1-8046-C99CBC4A1600.jpeg 102DE22B-C1C6-4C54-81A4-E478771E6EF3.jpeg

    The watch was listed as non-running but when the seller started photographing it, it started running and has been running on my bench for some time. But it needs a CLA just to see what the original issue may have been. Same information on patent on the movement as above but no closer myself to knowing knowing the date I guess. For $79.00 on eBay I’m quite happy. And I can’t wait to read the links above when I’m not on my phone.
     
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  16. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    You should be, I think these chronos are very cool.
    Nice find

    Rob
     
  17. Mark Kauzlarich

    Mark Kauzlarich Registered User
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    I’m sure this is information someone knows or could venture the guess but what was the rationale for what seems like a lack of production numbers for chronographs (or complications as a whole) in American watchmaking? I apologize because I have asked this before but I continue to hope someone may find evidence of an answer.

    Looking at private label Swiss (or Meylan) complications that were sold through American retailers or to American patrons, there was a market, even if small. Was it a focus on accuracy for the demand of a large RR market? For Waltham was it the burning of their New York facility? NYS, Manhattan Watch Co, etc, did have a market for the lower end as well.

    American finishing, even on low grade watches, always seems to exceed the Swiss at the time. I would love to own a Waltham Chronograph Repeater because they’re far and away more gorgeous than any watch I’ve seen, in my opinion. So it’s a puzzle to me.
     
  18. Mark Kauzlarich

    Mark Kauzlarich Registered User
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    Not to double post, across to threads, but I'm posting by request of musicguy in hopes that we can collect different examples. Chronographs are quickly becoming my obsession.

    As I said in another thread I have what I believe to be a Manhattan Watch Co. 16s Model II.5 (2.5) as described in these two (one, two) Bulletin articles by Michael Harrold about the company. It runs well but is missing it's center sweep seconds hand and the pull to stop the sweep does not feel like it engages anything.

    ManhattanWatchCo_SN160118_01.JPG ManhattanWatchCo_SN160118_02.JPG ManhattanWatchCo_SN160118_03.JPG ManhattanWatchCo_SN160118_04.JPG

    However, there's a few question marks I have. First, the serial number in the 160000s, falls under his chart as a "chrono d-type" with "chronograph ala NYCWCo, has Manhattan style movement, with angled chrono button in case, no balance cock, & no train jewels, in top plate."

    The description sounds correct to me from my limited experience and I've not been lucky enough to see an example of a New York Chronograph Watch Co. piece. But the angled chrono button description kind of trips me up. The button pulls straight up, which I guess would be angled off-center if your frame of reference was that the central direction of action on a watch would be the center of dial or movement. But to me it is a straight pull, just off to the right of the dial. The illustrations in Mr. Harrold's article as well show some II.5 models in advertisements with two pulls, but mine, and the case (which seems original) only have one.

    So what do I have here? Is there any major issue with this watch or can I be happy with my buy? And as I work to source a center seconds and try to get this running I'm happy to take PM suggestions as I don't have a watchmaker at the moment. Thanks for reading!
     
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  19. Mark Kauzlarich

    Mark Kauzlarich Registered User
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    Looking and reading again through the article I realized I misread the chart and is not the chronograph ala NYCWCo, which is obvious now that I've paid more attention and looked at the illustrations in part 2.

    That said, I don't know for sure what I'm looking at. It seems, as I first, posted a hacking seconds "chronograph". Because I don't feel the lever engage, I am worried about issues with the leaf springs underneath the plate.
     
  20. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    I wish I could add insight to your questions but I'm really not an expert on
    these turn of the century Chronograph's. Hopefully someone else here can answer some of
    your questions. That is why I tried to consolidate information into one
    thread here. Any documentation that you find please post.


    Rob
     
  21. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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    A New York Chronograph Watch Co.:

    img603.jpg img604.jpg
     
  22. Mark Kauzlarich

    Mark Kauzlarich Registered User
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  23. Kenny S.

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    New York Standard Excelsior 11j possibly 15j? 14s in original silveroid case. Manufacture date: Unknown.
    This was pretty dirty when I got it and the crystal was horribly scratched. The dial is perfect so like Rob said, a new crystal made all the difference! It runs great, keeps perfect time and the second sweep functions perfectly. $100 for this one was a bargain in my book.

    20200601_064754.jpg 20200601_065008.jpg 20200601_065029.jpg
     
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  24. Kenny S.

    Kenny S. Registered User
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    Waltham 1884 Riverside Chrono. 14s 13j Manufactured early 1887. This one runs great as well. Sweep hand works perfectly. I might replace the crystal in this one as it's a little scratched up. I have a 15j movement that I have tried to transplant into this case but it wouldn't fit. I was surprised by that. It measured the same, but something was different. I will post pics of my Waltham chrono movements next. I have 4 of them. 11j on up to 15j.

    20200607_140726.jpg 20200607_140804.jpg
     
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  25. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    Nice, I would say it's a 7j but that does not take anything away from it being a nice example!


    Rob
     
  26. Kenny S.

    Kenny S. Registered User
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    Thanks Rob.

    Upon closer examination, I don't know that there's even 7 jewels in it. The only ruby I see is at the balance wheel. The others look jewel-less for lack of a better term. At any rate I simply used the info given to me by the seller who probably looked at the PWDB for help like me and found generic information. Still, there are four jewel points, so could it be 8j?
     
  27. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    I think 7j(but to know for sure it can be disassembled to see.)


    Rob
     
  28. Kenny S.

    Kenny S. Registered User
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    Fair enough. 7j it is then. Thanks for your input!
     
  29. jagrieff

    jagrieff Registered User

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    I know that I am a little late to this thread but I just wanted to add a couple of other American made chronographs from my collection to the discussion.

    The first is the Pastor Stop Watch which, in spite of its name, is a true chronograph. It was manufactured by E. Ingraham based on the patent of Thomas Pastor from 1932. The mechanism is extremely simple with the column wheel moving the seconds counter pinion into and out of contact with the drive wheel. It was produced in a few versions, some marked Sterling Watch Company, others unmarked.
    IMG_2004.jpeg IMG_2014.jpeg IMG_2016.jpeg
    IMG_2005.jpeg IMG_2018.jpeg

    The next watch I would like to add to this thread is much more complex and unique. Most watches produced by the Trenton Watch Company are relatively unremarkable but they produced one of the most interesting chronographs I have ever seen. The switching mechanism of this chronograph uses a fine toothed roller that is twisted when the chronograph is engaged to make contact with the drive wheel and the seconds counter wheel. When the chronograph is disengaged the roller is pushed back out of contact with either wheel. I have never seen this type of chronograph mechanism used in any other watch - if anyone has seen anything similar this please let me know.

    IMG_2009.jpeg IMG_2013.jpeg IMG_5176.jpeg
    Thanks for looking at my treasures. It's fun to share them with others.

    Jeff Grieff
     
  30. musicguy

    musicguy Moderator
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    Thanks Jeff for posting those great examples!
    and welcome to the NAWCC Forum.


    Rob
     
  31. Kenny S.

    Kenny S. Registered User
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    I don't know anything about chronos myself, but that is freaking cool!! I agree Jeff very interesting indeed! Thanks for sharing!

    --K
     
  32. Kevin Neathery

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    Hi Mark. Bila, Pat H, and I have been working on serials and info for Manhattan watches. There is no structure for runs and such for this company as of yet. I am also of the mind that the model identification may need updating.

    There are multiple types. Time only no seconds, time with seconds, time with seconds and stop function (stop watch), and finally a chronograph. The one you have is as time only no seconds. The center post for the hands is solid I am guessing. This is by no means to say all non seconds models have a center post as I have one that is hollow but no location for any of the seconds setup.

    These 4 show some of the models.

    20200608_171653.jpg

    The two on the left have the stop function. Note the 2nd "button" on the left of the stem. That is one that is slid up to stop the watch. Mind that it stops the movement completely not just the seconds. This was the stop watch type.

    20200608_171726.jpg

    Manhattan produced a chronograph type prior to the renaming to "New York Chronograph Watch Co" that had the same look when you look at the movement because all of the chrono fuction happened behind the dial. Note that the left side has a button rather than the sliding "button" you see on the stop watches. These remained running even with the seconds at 12. The button started, stopped, and reset the seconds.

    20200608_171755.jpg

    20200608_171808.jpg

    After Manhattan changed names they eventually moved completely away from their design. The new movements were made by the US Watch Co for the New York Chronograph Watch Co. To date I believe only one is known with the complete chrono parts. Not because the rest have the parts taken off but rather they were never installed.

    20200608_171822.jpg

    20200608_171838.jpg

    So in answer to your question, your watch is running as it should. It should not stop or have a seconds as it is not a stop watch model.
     
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  33. Kevin Neathery

    Kevin Neathery Registered User
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    One of the missing links I am hunting for still. Great watch Greg. If you ever decide to part with it please look me up.
     
  34. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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    Regarding your 16s New York Chronograph Watch Co. mvt, first it's really neat and very scarce (if not rare). Second, I've seen at least 2 (and maybe 3, I haven't been good about recording the sightings of these) 16s mvts with the chronograph parts attached. Unfortunately, the one I bid on (ebay) about 15 years ago went elsewhere.

    I have a little side collection of these mvts. 2 are 18s true chronographs, one is a loose 16s mvt (no chrono parts), one is a new-old-stock unused 16s mvt in original mvt tin (with no chrono parts) and then there is a loose multi-color 16s fancy dial in mint condition.
     
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  35. Kevin Neathery

    Kevin Neathery Registered User
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    I started on the Manhattan/NYCWCo collecting only about 3 or so years ago when I bought a few Manhattan from Bila including the NYCWCo pictured. After that I kept hunting more of them. Sounds like you have an awesome group of them even as a side collection.

    I am sure we would be interested in serials if possible. Of the ones I have noted on my own only comes to 3 observed. Otherwise it had been very slim. There are the ones noted in the bulletin mentioned before. But having only 3 years hunting in makes the exposure limited to me.

    I had to explain the NYCWCo and US Watch Co connection to someone just recently. Sadly there is no formal records to show the connection from either company.
     
  36. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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    Most of my old data on New York Chronograph Watch Co. are in Mike Harrold's fine Bulletin articles.

    Here are a couple old message board threads that might have info not reported there:

    New York Chronograph Watch Co.
    New York Chronograph Watch Co Production

    I think that a few have passed through Jone-Horan and, if you haven't already, you might check there for new s/ns.
     
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  37. jagrieff

    jagrieff Registered User

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    Kevin,

    I had no idea that the Manhattan Watch Company produced a watch that was a full chronograph in addition to their stop watch. Have you ever had an opportunity to remove the dial of one of their chronographs to look at the chrono mechanism? I am particularly interested in different variations of chronograph mechanisms and would be interested to see a photo of what is happening under the dial of these watches. Does anyone have any photos or drawings of the Manhattan under the dial chronograph mechanism?

    Thanks for sharing your photos and discussion on these interesting watches.

    Jeff Grieff
     
  38. Bila

    Bila Registered User
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    #38 Bila, Jun 9, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 9, 2020
    Not much use lifting the dial on these (made by Manhattan Watch Co) if this is the type you are referring to, it has to be fully disassembled to view the chrono mechanism as it is between the watch plates on the underneath of the dial side plate (the New York Chronograph Watch Co Chrono's made for them by the Manhattan Watch Co were the same as this as well).
     
  39. jagrieff

    jagrieff Registered User

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    Bila,
    Thanks for that information. Do you happen to know any patent details for this chronograph? That would at least give me a drawing of the mechanism. Otherwise I may need to try to purchase one to disassemble for pictures. I just don't see them come up for sale very often. Thanks again for your reply.

    Jeff Grieff
     
  40. Bila

    Bila Registered User
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    I think the Patent number is #445064 from memory Jeff, attributed to Edmund Kuhn in or around 1890-1891. It is very unlikely that you will find one anytime soon, they are hardly seen, I have seen 3 or so over a 15 year period:(
     
  41. jagrieff

    jagrieff Registered User

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    Bila,

    I am amazed that you know the correct patent number by memory! The patent picture clearly shows me everything that I need. Thank you very much for your help. Now I just have one more item on my list of watches to look out for.

    Jeff Grieff
     
  42. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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    Aug 25, 2000
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    Bila,

    I have a Manhattan true chronograph on my bench needing repairs. Will post pictures of mechanism later.

    Did a quick check of Jones-Horan and they sold #160026, another chronograph. Did you record the numbers of those you've seen?

    Greg
     
  43. Bila

    Bila Registered User
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    #43 Bila, Jun 13, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 13, 2020
    Yes Greg I have some serial numbers recorded somewhere in my files (I'll have to dig them out), also I think from memory a couple of N.Y. Chrono Watch Co (US Watch Co made) examples as well, that are not in Mike Harrold's great article:)
     
  44. yellow_sub

    yellow_sub Registered User
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    Toward the end of last year I picked up a Waltham Riverside Chronograph. It ran and functioned but definitely needed some work, so it's currently being repaired. I'll take some new pictures once I get it back.
    DSC00246.JPG
    DSC00247.JPG
     
  45. D Magner

    D Magner Registered User
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    A later American made chronograph. The Hamilton model 23 with original box.

    Hamilton Mdl23 008 copy.jpg Hamilton Mdl23 018 copy.jpg Hamilton Mdl23 025 copy.jpg
     
  46. Jim Haney

    Jim Haney Registered User
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    Where did the 0-100 seconds circle come from? Is it on the crystal ?
     
  47. D Magner

    D Magner Registered User
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    #47 D Magner, Jul 2, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2020
    delete
     
  48. D Magner

    D Magner Registered User
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  49. Jim Haney

    Jim Haney Registered User
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    David,

    I wish I had instant recall from 5 years ago. ;) As has been discussed, it was a special order from a non-military customer, for who knows what.?
    That kind of watch is what makes collecting fun and interesting.
     
    179, PatH and musicguy like this.
  50. Greg Frauenhoff

    Greg Frauenhoff Registered User
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    Pics of Manhattan chronograph parts. This particular mvt has nickel plates.

    img945.jpg img946.jpg
     
    viclip and musicguy like this.

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