Post Chauncey Jerome Clocks

Discussion in 'General Clock Discussions' started by dan_46, Jul 6, 2006.

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  1. dan_46

    dan_46 Guest

    100.gif This is my current project, a Chauncey Jerome 30 hr. column clock.(not the best photo ) Got her running like a top, getting ready for the cosmetics. Love the oldies !
     
  2. dan_46

    dan_46 Guest

    100.gif This is my current project, a Chauncey Jerome 30 hr. column clock.(not the best photo ) Got her running like a top, getting ready for the cosmetics. Love the oldies !
     
  3. Jeremy Woodoff

    Jeremy Woodoff Registered User
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    Here is a Chauncey Jerome clock with a molded, vulcanized rubber front, made about 1850. The same pattern appears later in a Waterbury catalogue, but the material is cast metal. The bezel and hands are replaced. Behind the rubber front is a wood box shaped to match.

    101.jpg
     
  4. DBPhelps

    DBPhelps Registered User

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    Chauncey Jerome Steeple double fusee time & strike movement with alarm. Original tablets.

    102.jpg

    Brass round dial OG with original tablets

    View attachment 365821
     
  5. Here are two of my Chauncey Jerome Clocks.

    104.jpg

    105.jpg

    The 30-Hour clock has a full label and was produced when Chauncey was a superintendent, ca. 1866 – 1868, working at the United States Clock Manufacturing Co, in Austin, Illinois. Chauncey moved from New Haven to Austin in 1866 and returned to New Haven just prior to his death. The Austin factory burned down in 1868. It is possible this company is also associated with the U.S. Clock and Brass Co of Chicago, Illinois.

    106.jpg

    107.jpg

    The 8-Day OG is also a Chauncey Jerome, New Haven. Has a single door with three glasses. All original. The bottom is original reverse painted, the middle is original but the painting has completely flaked off (the design is just barely visible).

    108.jpg

    The third is a Jerome Mfg. with gutta percha tablet inserts. I just threw this in… because I like the gutta percha clocks.
     
  6. Sooth

    Sooth Registered User
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  7. owen.or

    owen.or Registered User
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    Chauncey Jerome 8-day ogee. Nice paper and painted glass.Original dial.

    http://mysite.verizon.net/~davidowen1/DSCN1577cj.jpg

    http://mysite.verizon.net/~davidowen1/DSCN1578cj.jpg

    David "owen.or"
     
  8. Sooth,

    Nice clocks, as most of yours are.

    I have been waiting to add a gothic/split top style Jerome like yours to my collection. I believe the rosettes on the door are gutta perch, and would fit into my other Jerome Mfg collection.

    I am hoping to get lucky someday for a reasonable price. I have my eye on one now that looks equally as good as yours, wish me luck.
     
  9. kathi17

    kathi17 Registered User

    Apr 30, 2013
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    This is my first post here. I found this site when searching for information about my clock.

    This clock has been in the family for generations, and was bought new by one of my great great grandparents. My mother is selling her house and downsizing, and I got this clock, which I always loved. I know it needs cleaning badly, and probably oiling as well. My mother never liked the sound of the clock chiming. It makes a really loud whirring noise whenever it chimes. She had it sitting on a shelf unused for about 25 years, and never bothered with it.

    I just got it home the other day, and it is running fast. I know I need to adjust the pendulum, but haven't had a chance to do that yet. It also only runs for about 22 hours before I have to wind it again, even though it is a 30 hour clock. It did run for 30 hours when my grandmother had it 25 years ago.

    I'm wondering what this type of clock is called. It is similar to an Ogee, but doesn't have the ogee molding. Is this what is known as a flat ogee, or something else entirely?

    One of the photos shows a hand written card which is inside the clock. I'm wondering if this was written by the person who sold the clock to my family originally, or by a family member later, who was looking for information about the clock.

    So far, I have never seen a Chauncey Jerome clock that looks like this any where on the internet. Most of the clocks like this seem to be ogee clocks, and most have paintings in the door rather than a mirror. The mirror appears to be original, as does everything else about the clock. View attachment 175531 View attachment 175532 View attachment 175533 View attachment 175534
     
  10. Bruce Barnes

    Bruce Barnes Registered User

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    Here are two of mine............... jerome ts&c.jpg 10292227_1_l.jpg
     
  11. Steven Thornberry

    Steven Thornberry User Administrator
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    kathi: A very nice example of Chauncey Jerome's only patent for a clock case, obtained April 14, 1857. They are found with a variety of names on the labels. Jerome was working for William Gilbert, I believe, at the time of the patent, and Gilbert wanted Jerome to put his own label in the clock to increase its appeal. The mirror may be original, though I can't remember seeing one myself on this style clock. Others will undoubtedly speak to that and other matters. Can you take a picture or two of the movement for our records. In the meantime, Mike Bailey's website (here) has an example of another of these, which you might enjoy seeing.
     
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  12. kathi17

    kathi17 Registered User

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    Thank you so much Steven. I wanted to see the movement, but would that mean I'd have to take the face off? I don't see any other way to get to it.
     
  13. Steven Thornberry

    Steven Thornberry User Administrator
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    Yes, you need to remove the hands and the dial. That sounds more daunting than it is. To remove the hands, you need to take out the brass tapered pin that hold the minute hand in place.
     
  14. kathi17

    kathi17 Registered User

    Apr 30, 2013
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    I can't get the little pin out of the hands, it's in there really tight. I will probably have to wait for my husband to get home. While trying, I noticed that someone has put screws into the bottom of the face. There are little pin things at the top. I also noticed that for some reason 1840 is penciled inside. It could have been done by an ancestor, since that is long before the case patent. Someone may have looked up the information in a book and got the wrong dates. Either that, or, my grandmother helped Ruth Wells and her husband start Old Sturbridge Village. There is, or was, a clock museum there, and the Wellses may have tried to identify it for her.
     
  15. Jerome collector

    Jerome collector Registered User
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    kathi,

    Thanks for posting those images of your clock. Steven Thornberry has already pointed out the important aspects of the clock, from the connection to Chauncey Jerome to his employment for William Gilbert in 1857 (likely date of this clock). The movement has me intrigued, as I don't recognize it as a product of any of the makers whose movements are found in Jerome patent cases. Your comment about the clock only running for 22 hours makes me suspect that the movement is spring, not weight, driven. Is that correct? I'd love to see photos of it. Removing the pin will likely take pliers (needle-nose, if you have them), but it shouldn't be too difficult. The minute hand will come off easily, once the pin is removed. The hour hand is held on by a friction-fit sleeve. If you grasp the hand near the center shaft and wiggle gently back and forth, while pulling at the same time, it should slide off. The only other thing to do is remove the two screws at the bottom of the dial.

    If you look at the two examples of Jerome patent cases on my website (see link in Steven's post above), you'll notice that the corner blocks at the top of the case are capped by a flat piece of wood. They show up better on the Waterbury than the New Haven. Those are missing on your clock. Possibly your mother stored them somewhere for safe keeping? The mirror may be original to the clock, but I haven't seen them used on this style of case. A view of the back of the door might help answer that question.

    You have a nice piece of American history, with a connection to one of the most important clockmakers of the 19th century. The fact that it has been in your family for generations is wonderful. Keep the tradition going!

    Mike
     
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  16. kathi17

    kathi17 Registered User

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    #16 kathi17, Apr 30, 2013
    Last edited: Apr 30, 2013
    Thanks Mike, your clocks are wonderful!

    I need to get some needle nose pliers. I was afraid of that when I tried to get the face off this afternoon. That's really interesting about the movement. Now I'm more anxious than ever to get a photo of it.

    I feel bad about the corner blocks. I don't think they were ever on there in my memory. I had a great aunt who cleaned everything furiously, possibly she knocked them off. How were they applied? My clock is all smooth and finished with no sign of anything ever being there.

    I wish I had originally gotten all my grandmother's clocks. She had a Chauncey Jerome steeple clock which my brother got before I got a chance to photograph it. He's in WVA, and only wanted it to sell. I also have a New Haven banjo clock. The banjo clock is a very sad story. It stopped working when my grandmother was still alive, and was up here in Maine. (She had a house in Sturbridge, MA and one in Stonington, ME). Unfortunately, she didn't look into taking it to someone who had a good reputation, and the guy lost the original face. He drew numbers on the steel part under the face with magic marker. Then, the clock stopped working after my grandmother had passed away, while my mother had it. She decided to take it to someone in Sturbridge, but didn't even bother to notice that she was transporting the clock face down. She never did get it repaired, and gave it to me at Christmas time. When I unwrapped it from the blanket she had wrapped it in, the key and pendulum had rubbed most of the reverse glass painting off the glass. I have been terribly upset about it since I saw it. I think I am the only one in the family who ever cared about these clocks.

    I will probably contact the Maine chapter of the NAWCC and see who they recommend for fixing it, as well as cleaning this clock as soon as summer gets here and I can make some money. I have a Black Woods cuckoo clock from the forties which needs cleaning and a new chain as well, so I will probably need quite a lot of money! :)

    I ran out of time today, and haven't really had a chance to explore this site, but if there are categories for the rest of my clocks, (they aren't really antiques, since they aren't as old as this one), I will upload photos of them to my album and the correct categories.

    Ooops forgot a photo of inside the door.

    View attachment 175628
     
  17. Steven Thornberry

    Steven Thornberry User Administrator
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    Thanks for the extra pictures. Mike's point about the movement is well taken. From the little I can see of yours, I currently suspect it is a Gilbert 30-hour movement, one that I am familiar with from clocks of the 1870's and 1880's, however. Whether it was used earlier, I'm not sure. That's one reason for asking to see it, to see if e can determine whether it is original.

    The mirror appears backed by a piece of cardboard, not necessarily an indication that it is a replacement, however.
     
  18. kathi17

    kathi17 Registered User

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    Here are pictures of the movement.

    View attachment 175669 View attachment 175670

    I don't see any markings anywhere. Maybe I should have taken it out and looked at the other side, but I'm not very brave with my precious clock!

    I see that someone did something with string, and that there is a metal rod hanging down at the left with nothing attached to it.

    I'm just starting to learn about clocks, so I'm sorry if I sound ignorant!
     
  19. Steven Thornberry

    Steven Thornberry User Administrator
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    It is definitely the 30-hour time and strike movement found in some Gilbert clocks. The "metal rod" on the left appears to be a strike adjustment wire - if the clock does not strike the correct hour for some reason, one can lift wire to advance the strike to the correct hour. The string appears to be holding up an alarm detent, indicating that this movement at one time had an alarm disc and was in a clock case with an alarm movement. I see that there are additional holes in the bottom right of the backboard, where I suppose an alarm movement might have been located, but I dunno.

    This clock looks like it might have been oroginally made for a weight-driven movement, but I'm not really sure it ever had one. I'd like to see what Mike Bailey has to say, since he is eminently more familiar with these cases than I.
     
  20. kathi17

    kathi17 Registered User

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    Thanks Steven, I'm very curious too. I'm 60, so my memory of the history of this clock is fairly recent. I only have vague memories of this clock when my great grand parents had it, but I remember my grandmother putting it into her den in the 1950s, after my great grandmother died. I used to sleep in that room, so this clock is quite special to me. Once my great grandparents had passed away, my grandmother had a ticking clock in every room.

    I'm beginning to wonder if something happened to the clock way back before my memory of it, and someone changed the movement? By the time my grandmother got it, it was almost 100 years old. I know she never changed it, and thought it was all original, but that doesn't mean it wasn't changed in the 100 years before that. Even she wouldn't know for sure, since she wasn't born until 1903, and it originally belonged to her grandparents.

    Oh, thank you for telling me what that wire is. When I put it back together, it was stiking all kinds of strange times. It scared me! It all of a sudden straightened itself out on it's own, but it's nice to know that there is an easy way of fixing it!
     
  21. Jerome collector

    Jerome collector Registered User
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    I'll add a few more thoughts about the clock, but some of them are little more than speculation.

    1) The label, which should indicate a Glebe Bldg address for the printer, John Benham, is exactly what I'd expect to see in a circa 1857 Chauncey Jerome clock.
    2) The whitish strip of paper on the cross bar separating the upper and lower glasses is a common feature of these patent cases, and it usually stated, "PATENTED APRIL 14, 1857." I don't see any evidence of printing on yours, but that may be a reflection of the resolution of the image.
    3) The fact that the mirror is held in by finishing nails (or something similar) leads me to believe it's a later replacement.
    4) I concur with Steven that the movement was designed for an external alarm. Steven pointed to holes in the backboard on the lower right (did you mean left, Steven?) that might be where the alarm was attached, but I'm more inclined to think the un-oxidized outline on the left might be the shadow of the alarm. That said, there are way more screw holes than I'm used to seeing just to attach a simple alarm. But alarms came in a wide variety of shapes and sizes.
    5) The dial doesn't strike me as one you'd find on an alarm movement, but I'm open to persuasion on that score. The brass alarm disc would look odd in the central opening in the dial. It's also conceivable that the alarm was an after-market addition (often done), and the dial was never intended for that type of marriage.
    6) I'm concerned by the extra set of holes at the bottom of the dial. While they're spaced appropriately to secure the dial to the vertical rails, positioned in that way, the dial would not be centered. However, I have a hard time believing that those holes would center the dial in any clock, nevermind this one. So I don't really know what to make of them.
    7) I confess to not knowing much about spring-driven movements, so I'll have to defer to others. Even so, the movement looks "of the period" to me. The cutout on the front plate, which is an appealing design, strikes me as an earlier, rather than a later, design feature. I don't see any extra holes in the backboard that would suggest it originally had a different movement, though. Highly unlikely that you'll see a maker's stamp on the backside of the movement; it would have been visible from the front.
    8) Though the vertical rails are often indicative of a weight-driven movement, my spring-driven Waterbury Jerome patent case clock has the rails, as well. Mine was never fitted for a weight-driven movement, so I'm not concerned about the configuration of your clock.

    I'd say there are still some puzzles about the clock, and I'd be interested in hearing what others have to say.

    Mike
     
  22. harold bain

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    I notice an arm tied back at the top left on the movement, maybe an alarm arm??
    However the position of the suspension post seems to me wouldn't allow much room for an alarm disc.
    But, the ghost of an alarm movement seems to be there on the case.
     
  23. kathi17

    kathi17 Registered User

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    Thanks Mike, I hope others will chime in as well. One thing that puzzles me, is why the face is decorated in the corners, when the corners are covered by the design on the glass of the case. I did see a Chauncey Jerome Ogee clock on the internet with the exact same face and corner flowers as mine, but the whole face was visible through the glass, rather than having painted corners.

    The other thing odd is the fact that the top of my clock is finished. If it had tops on it, wouldn't it have been unfinished, and possibly had signs of glue, or whatever they used to attach them?

    The strip of paper is pretty much scrubbed off. Possibly by my great aunt who was an obsessive scrubber and cleaner. She was a spinster, and after my grandfather died, she lived with my grandmother. They lived together for about 25 or 30 years.

    The mirror and glass are definitely very old. The mirror is like the glass in an old federal period mirror I have, as well as a few other 19th century mirrors. I did wonder about the cardboard behind it though.

    I agree that the un-oxidized part may have been where the alarm was. I also wonder if the other holes were used to attach the clock to a wall at some point? My great grand parents lived in a lot of places from Maine to Whitestone, NY, as well as at least four different towns in Mass. Who knows how they, or their parents displayed the clock. Also, possibly the clock was broken in a move at some point. My grandmother may not have even known if the clock had been broken and repaired, because she was only a child during most of those moves. They finally settled permanently back in Maine when she was about 26. She married my grandfather and stayed in Sturbridge, only coming here during the summer.

    I was also concerned by the extra set of holes as well as the fact that the dial was decorated in the corners, as I mentioned above.

    I'm also puzzled by the paper in the bottom of the clock, which mentions the mirror on the front. I don't know who wrote it, but it is old, and was in the clock. Since it was considered an heirloom, which belonged to my grandmother's grandparents, and they were supposedly the first owners, It would seem surprising if anything except possibly the mirror, and the alarm would have been replaced. There is no sign at all that another movement had been in there except for the alarm.

    Could this possibly have been some type of prototype of the patented case, put together quickly before the patent? Both my great grandfather and his father were inventors, and had patents on machinery which was used in early mills and manufacturing plants. I know they hung out with a lot of people who were also on the cutting edge of things in those days. My grandmother used to mention a lot of people her grandfather knew well, but I don't know if Chauncey Jerome was one of them.
     
  24. kathi17

    kathi17 Registered User

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    kathi1720130501_120257.jpg

    Interesting. The instructions are very difficult to read, so I photoshopped them to try to read what it says. Sorry the file is so large, but it's the only way you can read it. The instructions mention the weights. Isn't it pretty strange that they should add the label with weight driven instructions, and then add a spring driven movement?
     
  25. Steven Thornberry

    Steven Thornberry User Administrator
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    Good points, Mike. Yes, I meant the "other right," generally called the left. Sheesh!:glasses:
     
  26. Steven Thornberry

    Steven Thornberry User Administrator
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    I will add that my concerns about the date of the movement may have been overstated. This could have been a standard part of Gilbert's inventory for several years. My knowledge of these earlier Gilbert clocks is not so great as I would wish. But others certainly used the same style movements for several years, and Gilbert himself in the last quarter of the 19th century had a mire or less standard 8-day sprin-driven movement.

    As for the central dial opening/alarm disc, I have an S.C. Spring 8-day weight clock with a similar opening and an alarm disc (see picture - it was decorated for Christmas:whistle:). S.C. Spring was in business under this name 1864-68, so somewhat contemporary with the Jerome clock.
     
  27. gilbert

    gilbert Registered User
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    Nice clock Kathi, more so with family history. I believe if the clock originally had weight driven movement there would be two rectangle holes in top of case on either side, this would be where pulleys were attached. See any indication of this, perhaps wooden blocks covering them?
     
  28. kathi17

    kathi17 Registered User

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    Hi Gilbert, no holes at all, and no signs of anything else except an alarm. It seems highly unlikely that any of my ancestors did so much damage to this clock that everything had to be replaced, it would have been easier just to buy a new clock. I can see replacing the bottom glass with mirror, but not so many other things about this clock. Am I the only one who thinks it's odd that the dial was decorated as well as the glass in front? I also wonder about the other set of holes in the dial as Mike mentioned, but like he said, the other set of holes wouldn't have centered the dial in any clock, so it's strange that they are there at all.

    I think I have a mystery clock. When I got it, I just assumed it was a straight forward Jerome clock.
     
  29. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    Kathi

    Thanks to you for sharing your clock and it's history and to MB members who have shared their thoughts, observations and knowledge.

    Couple of observations. Don't think I'm going to break much new ground.

    I agree that the movement appears to be a spring driven Gilbert product of the last 30-40 years of the 19th century. Apparently, they were sold/traded to other members of the "trade" for use in clocks bearing their label. I have owned examples with the very same movement, including a miniature ogee and an iron front labelled by Levy Frank of NYC. He was one of a number of so called "makers" who purchased components from various sources, including Gilbert, and assembled them into a clock with his label. However, I wasn't aware that Jerome/New Haven did the same but they may have?

    There is clearly the shadow of a separate alarm movement and I think if you look carefully a nearby screw hole and evidence of where an iron bell touched the label. The presence of an alarm lever on the front plate of the movement has been commented upon.

    I have encountered perfectly original clocks were the case was intended for a weight driven movement but one was never installed. In those instances, there were rectangular openings cut into the top of the clock but pulleys were not installed. Furthermore, and it may be tough to tell in your clock given the condition of the label, but as weights are wound up then fall down, they abraid areas of the back board and label. I don't see evidence of that in your clock.

    Once again, like a broken record, I've encountered clocks which I felt were absolutely original but the label didn't jive with the movement. I can think of a number of examples (rolling pinions when there were none, "equalizing springs", ie, fusees, when there weren't, etc) including labels for a weight driven movement when a spring driven one was present. They used what they had on hand. Or, it can be a sign of a swap.

    I've seen a number of clocks where the absolutely original dial had decorated spandrels (the fancy term for the decorations in the corners of your dial) AND there was also reverse painted or transfer decoration on the upper glass which covered the spandrel decoration when the door was closed. They used what was available. What does give me pause about your dial are the 2 spurious holes at the bottom. Makes me wonder if it is original.

    So how to decide if it all started life together? It's a preponderance of evidence and probability. I actually can't draw any firm conclusions about your clock based upon available information.

    Does it matter? Not to me. Ultimately, it's the provenance and history of your clock that makes it so special. So few objects remain in families for > 100 years. Its travels tell the story of an American family, how they lived, etc that we otherwise might not have known.

    Enjoy your family heirloom.

    RM
     
  30. kathi17

    kathi17 Registered User

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    Thanks RM, you are right. I loved this clock when I thought it was a pure Chauncey Jerome, and I still love it just as much now. I also love that so many generations of my family were comforted by it's ticking, and looked at that same clock whenever they wanted to know the time. I think I got too caught up in the mystery.

    Since I would never sell it, nothing else really matters. If the mirror was replaced by an earlier generation, then I guess that is just part of it's history, and the history of my family. It is still a very beautiful, (to me, at least), and treasured object! :)
     
  31. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    Absolutely!!

    RM
     
  32. Jerome collector

    Jerome collector Registered User
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    kathi,

    I agree with everything RM said. In particular, the covered spandrels don't bother me. In a perfect world, the maker would have had a stack of undecorated dials and a stack of decorated dials. For unpainted upper glasses, he would have pulled from the stack of decorated dials, and vice versa. The reality is that they used whatever they had at hand. Same goes for the mismatched label and movement. We can be confident it never had a weight-driven movement and wasn't intended to have one, because it doesn't have pulleys. Also, the vertical rails do not have grooves to receive the seatboard that would have held the weight-driven movement, nor are there cutouts in the vertical rails for the weight cords to go through.

    I would ask RM to rattle his brain for a moment and remember that Chauncey Jerome worked for William Gilbert in 1857, after the Jerome Manufacturing Co. went belly up. The story goes, as Steven has already noted, that Gilbert insisted on putting Jerome labels in the clocks (with Gilbert movements), presumably because the name was so highly regarded. It's clear that Chauncey resented Gilbert doing it, but he wasn't financially secure, and there wasn't much he could do about it other than leave, which he did after only 8 months of working for Gilbert. Which raises another point that I don't want to push too forcefully: In reality, this may strictly be regarded as a Gilbert clock, not truly a Jerome. It was almost certainly made and assembled in Gilbert's factory. Gilbert was the boss; Jerome the employee (though apparently he was never fairly compensated for his work). However, there's no question the case design was Jerome's, and he likely directly oversaw the construction of the cases. In that sense, the clock has a more personal connection to Jerome than the hundreds of thousands of clocks produced by the Jerome Manufacturing Co in the early 1850s.

    Going back to your question about the missing capitals. It's not conceivable to me that yours never had capitals. They were glued on and would have been vulnerable to popping off from careless handling. My Waterbury also has a very fine nail securing each capital, but I'm not certain they're original. If you can't see evidence that your clock had capitals, I suspect that just means that they were lost a long time ago, and the exposed surfaces have acquired patina from long exposure.

    As a final thought from me, I am comfortable with a conclusion that, with the exception of the mirror, everything could very well be original to the clock. For reasons noted above, the mirror and means of fastening are not right for a clock of this style and age. I would not advocate replacing the mirror, though. It has been in your family that way for many years. If you replaced the mirror with another tablet, it wouldn't be the clock that you treasure for its family connections. That's my sentimental view, anyway.

    Thanks again for sharing your clock with us.

    Mike
     
  33. kathi17

    kathi17 Registered User

    Apr 30, 2013
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    Thanks Mike, I like what you said about Jerome overseeing this clock, (or, at least more of a chance of overseeing it), while working for Gilbert. I actually like this clock better than the Ogees. I like the simple, but beautiful lines, and have never been a fan of veneer.

    I also would never replace the mirror, even though it may not be original to the clock, because it is part of the clock's history. I don't object to the mirror at all. It's how I always have known it to look, and it is definitely an old mirror, not something modern. It has that sort of dark and not quite clear look to it that old mirrors have. It's kind of hard to describe, but all of the antique mirrors I have, have a different look to them than modern glass, so it doesn't look out of place on the clock.

    I really appreciate all the comments on this clock, and all the opinions on it's various parts. A week ago, I had no idea who Chauncey Jerome was. Now I have learned so much more about him, as well as about Gilbert. It's kind of neat to have a combination of both kinds of clocks. A Jerome Case, but a Gilbert movement that was original to the clock. Thank you so much again!
     
  34. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
    NAWCC Member

    Nov 26, 2009
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    Just catching up.

    I did forget the brief association between Gilbert and Jerome!

    Key point well made.

    RM
     

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