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Possible to identify unsigned brass weight driven movement?

T.Cu

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Sep 26, 2020
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Hi, I bought this movement a few years ago. Is it possible that someone could give me a name of the type, or style it is? Or maybe even who made it? Or anything about it? (I put some spare hands on it, they didn't come with it.) I think it's for an ogee type clock.
The ebay seller sold it with that nice wood dial, but I don't know if that was "original" to the movement. It does fit the movement though.
I know there are those who can identify these by various hints and "tells" so I included some photos of various angles. I can include more if there's some aspect of the movement missing in these pictures that can help.
Thanks in advance to everyone, Tim

IMG_9228.JPG IMG_9230.JPG IMG_9231.JPG IMG_9232.JPG IMG_9229.JPG IMG_9233.JPG
 

Jim Hartog

NAWCC Member
Jan 6, 2010
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Hello Tim,

There are some excellent sources for the identification of unlabelled brass movements. One, based solely on the shape of the escape wheel bridge, is by A. Lee Smith and is found in the NAWCC Bulletin, Dec 1999, #323. It uses the foot shape, neck shape and rivet patterns to identify the maker of the bridge. Based on that, I will hazard the guess that your movement is by E. N. Welch.

A second identification source is Snowden Taylor's 30 Hour Brass Works Identification treatise which is found in the NAWCC Bulletin, Dec 1982, #221, part II. It identifies the movement based on many characteristics. I did not go through the effort to do the ID except to find a picture of a Welch product on page 745 which shows a movement very similar to yours but the strike train arbors seem to be in slightly different positions.

You can look up these sources on the NAWCC website to do some interesting sleuthing.

My guess is Welch.

Jim
 

T.Cu

NAWCC Member
Sep 26, 2020
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Hello Tim,

There are some excellent sources for the identification of unlabelled brass movements. One, based solely on the shape of the escape wheel bridge, is by A. Lee Smith and is found in the NAWCC Bulletin, Dec 1999, #323. It uses the foot shape, neck shape and rivet patterns to identify the maker of the bridge. Based on that, I will hazard the guess that your movement is by E. N. Welch.

A second identification source is Snowden Taylor's 30 Hour Brass Works Identification treatise which is found in the NAWCC Bulletin, Dec 1982, #221, part II. It identifies the movement based on many characteristics. I did not go through the effort to do the ID except to find a picture of a Welch product on page 745 which shows a movement very similar to yours but the strike train arbors seem to be in slightly different positions.

You can look up these sources on the NAWCC website to do some interesting sleuthing.

My guess is Welch.

Jim
Hi Jim, Thank you! If no one had had any ideas I'd have next asked if anyone knew where there were some resources for these things. I know I have seen somewhere, possibly somewhere here on our site, that the escape wheel bridges were useful in identifying them.
And I seem to remember that the way the loop for the trip-wire on the count wheel lever was made was also useful. Some of these, when they are present, are a twist in the count lever itself, but some are a separate screw eye or rivet eye in the count lever.
And I think I remember someone describing the shape of the hammer, and the ribbing on the wheels or plates, when present.
So I will eagerly read the resources you have supplied, and snoop around here and there. If I find anything interesting I'll report back. Wonderful! Thanks again, Tim
 

Steven Thornberry

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Jan 15, 2004
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I think the movement is the same as that shown on page 782, fig. 110, of the Bulletin article Jim mentioned. Snowden Taylor states it was made by Terry & Andrews and is type 8.2. Following is a link to the relevant portion of the article, which is posted in several parts online. Have a look.

221_2_775.pdf (nawcc.org)

As a caution, later research by Snowden resulted in changes of the movement types and, perhaps, the assigned makers.
 

Jim Hartog

NAWCC Member
Jan 6, 2010
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Whitby, Ontario, Canada
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Hello Tim,

I defer to Steven. Fig. 110 is a much better match. Obviously, I stopped looking too soon.

Since I said your escape wheel bridge was a Welch, I had a closer look at your "foot". It may have the little notches at the edges of the round part, which makes it a C4.1. not a B4.1a, as I had assumed. The C4.1 was used by Terry and Andrews in a one day time and strike movement. Welch also used the C4.1 but only in 8 day movements according to the article.

Jim
 

T.Cu

NAWCC Member
Sep 26, 2020
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Hi, Well thank you both! I will enclose some pictures of the "rivet eye" on the count lever and the cut-outs or notches in the base of the foot on my movement. And though hard to see, both are present in the article photos too.
The movement I have really does seem to be exactly like the one in the photo, though mine has a bent tooth ha ha (picture three).
And Steven, I acknowledge your caveat about possible differences in type or maker that might come up in later documents and later attributions.
But this is truly wonderful information and I love being able to get it. Thanks, Tim

IMG_9245.JPG IMG_9246.JPG IMG_9249.JPG
 

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