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Poole Executive #5 frustrations

Ajay1

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Jan 3, 2011
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533568-c8c6ea8d2d38c6fd3cfee3dae69fa4a6.jpg I recently acquired a Poole Executive #5 clock. Its condition was not so good so I started by trying to get it going. Eventually it started to run but the impulse frequency was between 9 and 14 complete swings and not running for very long at a time. After many minor adjustments of lever bending, changes were slight and results were inconsistent. I have a copy of Clesson Turner's article that he wrote for the NAWCC bulletin and checked his suggestions. No problems there.
Can anyone answer these questions please?
When the toggle catches, how high should the arm be raised to trip the latch. One adjustment or this would mean bending the little stop indicated by the black arrow.
Another possibility to affect the latch triggering would be the curved lever that interacts with the toggle arm spiggot as shown by the yellow arrow. What is the correct resting position of the spiggot inside the curve?
Finally, regarding the latch, does the gravity arm knife edge rest on the tip of the latch or slightly away from the edge? There's obviously a thin line between too much play and not enough to release the gravity weight.
Any guidance on these issues would be greatly appreciated.
 

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Uhralt

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Sep 4, 2008
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View attachment 616635 I recently acquired a Poole Executive #5 clock. Its condition was not so good so I started by trying to get it going. Eventually it started to run but the impulse frequency was between 9 and 14 complete swings and not running for very long at a time. After many minor adjustments of lever bending, changes were slight and results were inconsistent. I have a copy of Clesson Turner's article that he wrote for the NAWCC bulletin and checked his suggestions. No problems there.
Can anyone answer these questions please?
When the toggle catches, how high should the arm be raised to trip the latch. One adjustment or this would mean bending the little stop indicated by the black arrow.
Another possibility to affect the latch triggering would be the curved lever that interacts with the toggle arm spiggot as shown by the yellow arrow. What is the correct resting position of the spiggot inside the curve?
Finally, regarding the latch, does the gravity arm knife edge rest on the tip of the latch or slightly away from the edge? There's obviously a thin line between too much play and not enough to release the gravity weight.
Any guidance on these issues would be greatly appreciated.
I'm not sure if you are working on the real problem. In my experience the number of swings depended on three main factors.
1. The pendulum moves back and forth between the crutch when it swings. That robs a lot of power. Make sure it moves only to the sides. This can be achieved by loosening the nut that holds the suspension spring and slightly turn the spring until there is no back forth movement. Then tighten the nut.
2. The suspension spring may have a kink.
3. The movement doesn't run absolutely free. Make sure it hasn't been oiled in the past. If it was, clean it thoroughly. It is also possible that the second hand shaft rubs on the dial opening.

I should also note that the clock has to be in beat. Let it run and count the number of beats. Then lift the left side of the base about 1 mm and count again. Is it better or worse? If better, lift one more mm and repeat. If worse, lift the other side. You'll get the message. My Poole #5 currently gets between 39 and 44 periods between impulses.

Uhralt
 

Ajay1

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Jan 3, 2011
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Uhralt, Many thanks for your suggestions. The one idea that I had not been too accurate with was the alignment of the suspension spring. That was an item that I had replaced because the original one (in my ownership) was kinked. I used a strip of clock suspension spring I had, disregarding the thickness, but it is fairly light. Is that critical? At the time I thought it was aligned well but after your mention I achieved a slightly better result. The movement freedom is fine.
One fault I did pick up was that the gravity weight roller was striking the crutch spiggot on the outer edge of the roller instead of the centre of the wheel. Correcting this gave me a slightly greater displacement of the crutch at each impulse
Swing frequencies are slightly better (19 - 22) but nothing like your results yet.
I've still got a bit of intermittency in that it stops occasionally. Just to clear my suspicions, how deep should the notch be at the base of the toggle? I read that they do wear. Since the latch hasn't been triggered when this happens, this must be the problem source surely.
I'll press on in the mean time.
Al.
 

Uhralt

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NAWCC Member
Sep 4, 2008
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617
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Uhralt, Many thanks for your suggestions. The one idea that I had not been too accurate with was the alignment of the suspension spring. That was an item that I had replaced because the original one (in my ownership) was kinked. I used a strip of clock suspension spring I had, disregarding the thickness, but it is fairly light. Is that critical? At the time I thought it was aligned well but after your mention I achieved a slightly better result. The movement freedom is fine.
One fault I did pick up was that the gravity weight roller was striking the crutch spiggot on the outer edge of the roller instead of the centre of the wheel. Correcting this gave me a slightly greater displacement of the crutch at each impulse
Swing frequencies are slightly better (19 - 22) but nothing like your results yet.
I've still got a bit of intermittency in that it stops occasionally. Just to clear my suspicions, how deep should the notch be at the base of the toggle? I read that they do wear. Since the latch hasn't been triggered when this happens, this must be the problem source surely.
I'll press on in the mean time.
Al.
I didn't measure the depth of the notch but it is rather shallow, maybe a third of a mm. Right now I can't stop my clock to measure because it is running for a prolonged time to demonstrate if Poole's claim that the clock will be accurate to a minute within a month of runtime is true or just a marketing claim. It seems so far that it may be possible to obtain that result.

Before I had fully restored my clock it had "double impulses" from time to time that turned out to be a contact issue. They could be so bad that the clock sometimes stopped. Make sure both contacts are very clean and the depth of the contact screws is such that they will both be closed when the impulse is triggered.

Uhralt
 

Ajay1

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Jan 3, 2011
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Uhralt - I do understand regarding your time trial. After further thoughts about the toggle mechanism, I closely inspected the knife edge that engages with the notch and found that it was uneven and a little 'blunt'. In case this was a possible reason for the intermittency, I trued it up but the problem persists. Your suggestion of the contact being a cause doesn't seem to be the case because I've just observed a stoppage and the latch was not released, just a gradual slowing down of the swinging pendulum. Might fiddle some more.
Al
 

Uhralt

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NAWCC Member
Sep 4, 2008
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Uhralt - I do understand regarding your time trial. After further thoughts about the toggle mechanism, I closely inspected the knife edge that engages with the notch and found that it was uneven and a little 'blunt'. In case this was a possible reason for the intermittency, I trued it up but the problem persists. Your suggestion of the contact being a cause doesn't seem to be the case because I've just observed a stoppage and the latch was not released, just a gradual slowing down of the swinging pendulum. Might fiddle some more.
Al
Does the toggle move absolutely free? it needs to wiggle with every beat of the pendulum. If it gets stuck in a tilt position, the knife edge cannot engage.

Uhralt
 

Ajay1

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Jan 3, 2011
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The toggle is quite free. I've noticed that sometimes, as the pendulum swing decreases, the notch and knife edge just don't engage. That was what made me ask how deep the notch should be. I have also noticed that quite a few joints are sloppy and under regular horological practices, should be rebushed. This situation results in play that I'm trying to find a compromise for, The areas I'm referring to are the toggle assembly (latching pawl joints), and the weight pivot bushes. Maybe the toggle hole is worn to the point that it has sideways play.
Al
 

Uhralt

Registered User
NAWCC Member
Sep 4, 2008
5,017
617
113
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Region
The toggle is quite free. I've noticed that sometimes, as the pendulum swing decreases, the notch and knife edge just don't engage. That was what made me ask how deep the notch should be. I have also noticed that quite a few joints are sloppy and under regular horological practices, should be rebushed. This situation results in play that I'm trying to find a compromise for, The areas I'm referring to are the toggle assembly (latching pawl joints), and the weight pivot bushes. Maybe the toggle hole is worn to the point that it has sideways play.
Al
I'm sorry that I can't be more helpful. Fortunately I didn't have the same problem with my Poole. I think you will have to spend quite some time in critically observing what exactly is going on, and maybe make some trial and error repairs.

Uhralt
 

Ajay1

Registered User
Jan 3, 2011
32
0
6
Country
Uhralt - Many thanks for all your suggestions. As I originally mentioned, the overall condition was not very good. Yes, I was able to get it running but to achieve a satisfactory operation has needed a lot of intensive inspection. Your ideas have certainly helped my understanding of its operation. Not knowing what was acceptable or not, I decided to address everything from the bottom up. The excessive play in the joints came down to a basic cause that didn't seem to need attention. The armature bushes were slightly worn and because the latching mechanism is attached to it, this is where the play originated. Two new bushes have fixed that issue. The operation is a lot quieter too. I'll see how that goes and then rebush the gravity weight pivot holes. Improvements are on the way. I should be right now thanks.
Al
 

Uhralt

Registered User
NAWCC Member
Sep 4, 2008
5,017
617
113
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Region
Uhralt - Many thanks for all your suggestions. As I originally mentioned, the overall condition was not very good. Yes, I was able to get it running but to achieve a satisfactory operation has needed a lot of intensive inspection. Your ideas have certainly helped my understanding of its operation. Not knowing what was acceptable or not, I decided to address everything from the bottom up. The excessive play in the joints came down to a basic cause that didn't seem to need attention. The armature bushes were slightly worn and because the latching mechanism is attached to it, this is where the play originated. Two new bushes have fixed that issue. The operation is a lot quieter too. I'll see how that goes and then rebush the gravity weight pivot holes. Improvements are on the way. I should be right now thanks.
Al
Glad you're making progress and happy that I could help (somewhat).

Uhralt