Pocket Watch Girardier Laine,help identify

Discussion in 'European & Other Pocket Watches' started by Marian, Feb 18, 2011.

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  1. Marian

    Marian Registered User

    Feb 8, 2011
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    Hello, The attached photo pocket watch marked Girardier Laine.Case watches hallmark three chevron, the letters "IM" and serial number of the 5756th. I have a question to learn more about, and clockmaker casemaker Neuchatel? Help identify a watchmaker and jeweler, Thank you for your help. 84685.jpg 84686.jpg 84687.jpg 84688.jpg 84689.jpg
     
  2. MartyR

    MartyR Super Moderator
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    Welcome to the board, Marian :)

    I can't see clearly in your photo, but I think the name must be Girardier l'aine (Girardier the elder) who would be Charles Girardier. Pritchard gives him as a master watchmaker active from 1780-1815, and he worked in both Geneva and Paris.

    Your watch would certainly be in that period, and the movement looks to be of a very fine quality. Girardier was awarded a prize in 1792 by the Geneva Society of Arts, and was particularly famous for automata and repeaters.

    Your case is solid 18 karat gold, as signified by the Neuchatel chevron which you have noted.
     
  3. Mikrolisk

    Mikrolisk Registered User

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    A quarter repeater verge watch... really stunning!

    Andreas
     
  4. MartyR

    MartyR Super Moderator
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    Hi Andreas ... how great to see you here - I love your website and use it a lot!

    I looked at Marian's photo really closely, because I expected it to be a repeater and it certainly has something about it that made me think it was, but I saw nothing to convince me.

    So please tell me your secret ... how do you know that? :rolleyes:
     
  5. Marian

    Marian Registered User

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    Hello,yes this is a quarter repeater pocket watch.Thank you.
     
  6. dshumans

    dshumans Registered User
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    Marty,

    No secret. These verge repeaters have a repeater train separate mainspring which is covered by the little round engraved cover with 2 screws below the balance cock. It is unmistakable. There is also a repeat speed adjustment, which is a square top peg with a little index around it. Only repeaters have that.

    Regards,

    Doug
     
  7. Marian

    Marian Registered User

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    Hello!Can I find out something about the manufacturer pocket watch casing? Try advice? Thank you!
     
  8. MartyR

    MartyR Super Moderator
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    Thanks for the instruction, Doug. Much appreciated :)

    Marian, "IM" are probably the casemaker's initials, but Swiss makers are usually difficult to identify. If you're lucky someone may post here who has managed to identify this one ;)
     
  9. Roland Ranfft

    Roland Ranfft Registered User

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    Hi Marian,

    the shield with three chevrons is the hallmark of Neuchatel for 18K gold used
    between 1820 and 1866.

    As the style of case and dial meets the fashion of the very early 19th century,
    you can be sure that the watch was made in the beginning of this periode.

    Regards, Roland Ranfft
     
  10. MartyR

    MartyR Super Moderator
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    Hi Roland. It's good to see the duopoly of German horology on the same thread ;)

    These dates are interesting. Pritchard says that Charles Girardier was active from 1780-ca.1815, but you're saying that the Neuchatel chevron was used from 1820 onwards. Maybe one of those dates is wrong by a few years, or the watch was cased some years after it was made, or the watch was not made by Girardier himself but by his firm after his retirement.

    Girardier was born in 1757, so in 1820 he was 63 years old (and in fact died at the good age of 82!). Probably the most likely conclusion is that Pritchard has the 1815 date wrong, but I'd like to hear some views on this.
     
  11. Roland Ranfft

    Roland Ranfft Registered User

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    Hi MartyR,

    Mrs. Pritchard isn't actually wrong. She carried together what could be
    proved by old archives, advertising, journals etc. So the mentioned periodes
    of activities are just the guarandeed times. So if business is recorded
    anywhere until 1815, it is of course possible that it actually lasted longer
    or business was continued by children or other successors.

    Regards, Roland Ranfft
     
  12. Marian

    Marian Registered User

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    Hello!On this forum AM 05-17-2006, 10:57 Luger wrote: The Chevron was the hallmark used at Neuchâtel
    from the 1700's until the 1880's. Chevron Which would Indicate 18k gold. The Chevron hallmark was merely
    superceded in 1881/1882 when the Swiss Federal Government assumed
    control of hallmarking from the Cantons. I believe the information at this link: (http://poincon.blogspot.com/2005/11/poinon-antique-neuchteloise-1740.html)Where is the truth? Thank you.
     
  13. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User
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    Marian the link does not work for me.
     
  14. Roland Ranfft

    Roland Ranfft Registered User

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    Hi Marian,

    it was before my date of birth, and I'm therefore forced to believe the
    literature. And all I've seen agree roughly with 1820 for the introduction
    of the mark with three chevrons in a shield.

    The first law to sign items from Neuchâtel existed since Sept. 24. 1754,
    and forth items were marked with three chevrons; but it was still optional.
    Not before another law from Aug. 30. 1819, control offices were estabished
    between 1820 and 1823, and forth Neuchâtel items were marked with the
    stamp in question.

    However it may be only the written truth, not the real. And possibly the
    statement about 1700 is based on better informations.

    Regards, Roland Ranfft
     
  15. Marian

    Marian Registered User

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    Hello, please could someone of you send me an entire chapter from the book by Swiss Timepiece Makers, 1775-1975 By Kathleen H. Pritchard, in which he writes about clockmaker Charles Girardier? Thank you very much. Regards,Marian
     
  16. MartyR

    MartyR Super Moderator
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    It's not a complete chapter, Marian, it's half a page. I've already given you the salient points.

    Can someone tell me what the copyright position is on this? My general understanding is that it's legal to quote data from a book, but may not be legal to copy and distribute complete sections such as pages. Anyone have specific knowledge on this?
     
  17. Audemars

    Audemars Registered User
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    My take on it is that if it is a case of special interest - which surely applies to this forum - then the author of origin ought to be bloody pleased that he, she or it is being quoted by experts.
    I would have no compunction in quoting paragraphs or pages.
    Whole publicatiopns or whole chapters might be a bit different..............

    P
     
  18. pepo

    pepo New Member

    Apr 15, 2010
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    this book was written for NAWCC so for the members should be legal to share sections with mentioning the author
     
  19. MartyR

    MartyR Super Moderator
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    I wouldn't expect that to be so. The book is a commercial production to which (as far as I know) NAWCC members have no privileged access or use.

    I have always understood that quoting data from the books is fine, but the question here is whether I can photocopy a complete page, which I suspect is a quite different process under copyright law. I do know for certain that in the UK it is illegal to copy and distribute articles from a magazine or newspaper.

    Does anyone have legal knowledge of the position?
     
  20. pepo

    pepo New Member

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    I have always understood that quoting data from the books is fine, but the question here is whether I can photocopy a complete page, which I suspect is a quite different process under copyright law. I do know for certain that in the UK it is illegal to copy and distribute articles from a magazine or newspaper.

    So you can ask to his e-mail address and you can send it directly ..or ?
     
  21. MartyR

    MartyR Super Moderator
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    I really don't know, Pepo :confused: That's why I'd like someone with appropriate legal knowledge to tell me.
     
  22. Kent

    Kent Registered User
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    As someone who constantly posts images (pictures, page copies, etc.) from periodicals, catalogs, etc, I've settled in my own mind the concept that I don't post an image of pages in books or periodicals that have been published within the last 40 years (without prior permission - which I have obtained from time to time, mostly for publication in the NAWCC Bulletin).

    Sending copies of pages to an individual for research and other non-commercial purposes is a whole other matter.
     
  23. Marian

    Marian Registered User

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    Hello, Thank you all for the information provided very help me.I want to ask you again to send half a page of the book By Kathleen H. Pritchard: Swiss Timepiece Makers, 1775-1975, in which he writes about Girardier watchmaker.Please,thank you very much.Marian
     
  24. GIRARDIER

    GIRARDIER New Member

    Dec 27, 2018
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    Very interesting thank you all for the family history lesson!! Im a new watchmaker in the US..Im Matthew Girardier im looking for advise and knowledge on all the history of the Girardier family

    1547149482108801545169.jpg
     
  25. Keith R...

    Keith R... Registered User
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    Welcome to the NAWCC message board. I'm sure when Marty, Paul or Doug becomes available,
    they might can provide you with info on this maker.

    Check the board in about 12 hours from this post.

    Keith R...
     
  26. GIRARDIER

    GIRARDIER New Member

    Dec 27, 2018
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    Thank you very much! Ive been researching my family history and Christmas morning I discovered that we come from a long line of swiss watch making I'm amazed by all this history I'm a stone mason and i do a lot of side work I'm a great craftsman .A man I did work for owns and runs a coin shop and jewelry repair I went in and told him what i found out he gave me a few tools and some old pocket watches to tinkerr with and some old clocks to fix so im gaining a lot of knowledge on the art and skills.any advice and other knowledge would be greatly appreciated
    Thank you
    Matthew W Girardier
     
    Keith R... likes this.

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