Plymouth (Seth Thomas) screw-in bushing?

GregS

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These bushing are in an 89IM movement out of a Plymouth mantle clock. I believe Plymouth was owned by Seth Thomas. I've never seen any bushing like these before and am wondering what you all know about them? They appear to be threaded into the plate. There are four of them, three on the front and one on the back. Are these factory bushings or some other aftermarket bushings similar to KMW? Anyone using a system like these?

Appreciate your help!

Img_1712.jpg Img_1713.jpg
 

BLKBEARD

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Those look like carburetor fuel jets, used in boat motors, lawn mowers etc. Maybe a shade-tree clock mechanic?

I'm interested if they're a clock bushing, or someone fixing their clock with what they had?

Might even be Natural or Propane Gas Jets
 

harold bain

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Those are Rathbun bushings, sold by many of our parts suppliers. They can be installed without taking the movement apart. NOT RECOMMENDED.
 

BLKBEARD

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I wonder if fuel jets were the inspiration for Rathbun Bushings? I'll see if I have couple kicking around and post a picture tomorrow. you'll be amazed at the similarity.

PD_0071_500_690232?wid=400&hei=400.jpg
 

GregS

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Those are Rathbun bushings, sold by many of our parts suppliers. They can be installed without taking the movement apart. NOT RECOMMENDED.
Howard, I certainly agree what your saying about "not recommended" but I always thought Rathbun bushing looked like the ones in this photo:

Image2.jpg

There's no way someone installed the bushings in my photo without taking the movement apart. Were there more than one type of Rathburn bushing?
 

Willie X

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Well, I would say that you are very lucky in that the screw-in bushings are much smaller than the ones I usually see and S - T clocks have a very accurate concentric circle to help you recenter a replacement bushing.
There isn't anything really wrong with having a threaded bushing; the problem is that the clock has not been taken apart and will suffer from the effects of that unpolished/worn pivot.
Another problem is that the screw-in bushings are to tall, thus causing present or future binding of the pivot.
If I were working on that clock, I would carefully assess the bushing work you have and see how everything works after the pivots are polished. If the fit was good and the pivot is long enough, you may be able to go with what you have. If the fit is sloppy and/or the pivot tips are beneath the top edge of the bushing, it should be rebushed in the normal manner.
Willie X
 

bangster

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Not Rathbuns. Those attach to the plate with a sheet metal screw. These are screw-in bushings that had their day a while back. I had a set of them (off eBay) before I learned better. Don't think I ever used one. Set came with (1) a selection of threaded bushes, of various id sizes; (2) a hollow double-ended tool with a threading tap on one end, and a two-pronged insertion wrench on the other; and (3) a handle for the tool. Idea was, you use the tap to thread around the end of a pivot, then use the wrench to insert the bush, without splitting the plates. Actually a cute idea (better than Rathbuns) for the handyman, but not recommended, for a variety of reasons.
 

dad1891

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I don't want to sidetrack the thread, but can anyone explain why ST/Plymouth cut the oil sink and area around the oil sink like they did? They started with a thin plate and then removed quite a bit of the pivot bearing area.
 

R&A

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I don't want to sidetrack the thread, but can anyone explain why ST/Plymouth cut the oil sink and area around the oil sink like they did? They started with a thin plate and then removed quite a bit of the pivot bearing area.
The idea was to hold oil.
 

shutterbug

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Those screw in bushings are a real pain. They are too big, and too ugly, and the only way to deal with a worn one is to either remove it and plug the hole, using a preacher to re-find center, or re-bush the screw-in bushing. If you opt for the later method, it's best to use loc-tite to anchor the thing so it can't move while you replace the center of it with a bushing.
 

Willie X

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Bugs,
I don't think that these bushings, jets, or whatever (pictured) are that big. These look rather small and tidy, compaired to what I usually see.
Willie X
 
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roughbarked

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Those are Rathbun bushings, sold by many of our parts suppliers. They can be installed without taking the movement apart. NOT RECOMMENDED.
They can also be installed after taking the movement apart.
There are Swiss screw in bushings as well. I've got the tools here WIT branded. They are thinner flatter bushes that fit the plates better.
 

kinsler33

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Those screw in bushings are a real pain. They are too big, and too ugly, and the only way to deal with a worn one is to either remove it and plug the hole, using a preacher to re-find center, or re-bush the screw-in bushing. If you opt for the later method, it's best to use loc-tite to anchor the thing so it can't move while you replace the center of it with a bushing.
I encountered one of the larger-diameter screw-in bushings not long ago. I didn't even trust LocTite to hold it in properly while I rebushed that bushing, so I locked it in with Mr Ball-Pein Hammer and his friend Mr Anvil. The plate was really thin, and the thing was held in with maybe two threads.

I saw one of the screw-in bushing machines in an old clock shop in Parkersburg, WV years ago. Rather expensive, it used a hollow mill to saw out a donut of brass around the loose pivot. The hole was threaded with a hollow tap and then you'd screw in a new, threaded bushing. I think at least one of the suppliers still sells the bushings.

M Kinsler

KWM fan, at least at the moment
 

roughbarked

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I encountered one of the larger-diameter screw-in bushings not long ago. I didn't even trust LocTite to hold it in properly while I rebushed that bushing, so I locked it in with Mr Ball-Pein Hammer and his friend Mr Anvil. The plate was really thin, and the thing was held in with maybe two threads.

I saw one of the screw-in bushing machines in an old clock shop in Parkersburg, WV years ago. Rather expensive, it used a hollow mill to saw out a donut of brass around the loose pivot. The hole was threaded with a hollow tap and then you'd screw in a new, threaded bushing. I think at least one of the suppliers still sells the bushings.

M Kinsler

KWM fan, at least at the moment
All true. I'm also a KWM fan. However, there were for a time 30 day Korean time bombs made to in a fashion, knock off the original American clocks. There was no way I'd bother to pull them to bits to bush. The monsters would mostly come in with the case blown to bits by the mainsprings. Plates bent and etc. Mostly I told them to throw the movement out and put in a quartz jobbie. If it only needed a couple of bushes and they wanted to keep the 'orrible gonger and the movement was one of those with improved plates to reduce plate warp, I could contemplate putting a couple of screw in bushes in.
 

harold bain

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All true. I'm also a KWM fan. However, there were for a time 30 day Korean time bombs made to in a fashion, knock off the original American clocks. There was no way I'd bother to pull them to bits to bush. The monsters would mostly come in with the case blown to bits by the mainsprings. Plates bent and etc. Mostly I told them to throw the movement out and put in a quartz jobbie. If it only needed a couple of bushes and they wanted to keep the 'orrible gonger and the movement was one of those with improved plates to reduce plate warp, I could contemplate putting a couple of screw in bushes in.
Perhaps your corner of the world gets the worst of these, but I would say they are no worse than Hermle movements with plated pivots. The springs are weaker than American movements, just longer. I have one at my cottage that I have been running for over 20 years, customer didn't want to pay for the repair, and abandoned it to me.
 

R. Croswell

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These bushing are in an 89IM movement out of a Plymouth mantle clock. I believe Plymouth was owned by Seth Thomas. I've never seen any bushing like these before and am wondering what you all know about them? They appear to be threaded into the plate. There are four of them, three on the front and one on the back. Are these factory bushings or some other aftermarket bushings similar to KMW? Anyone using a system like these?

Appreciate your help!
I won't install "screw up" bushings like these, but if its your own clock and the bushing fits well as others have suggested it won't hurt to leave it. If its a clock that's being repaired for someone else and you leave it there then you "own it" and have your name and reputation on it. If a clock isn't worth the cost to repair it I prefer to just refuse the job rather than do something like this.

RC
 

Willie X

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I would disagree with RC.
The customer "owns" the clock and I will do whatever that customer wants ... Make them an estimate, and do good work, if they OK the estimate.
RC's business model is exclusive and works well in a large city with a lot of valuable clocks with wealthy owners, or for the hobiest or specialist who prefer to work on just one type clock.
In my experience, when a customer walks away, that customer is lost forever. So, if you want to build a business, in most places you will have to be less choosy.
Note, most of what we do is based on sentimental value and many repairers make the BIG mistake of bowing out on big jobs on inexpensive or run-of-th-mill clocks with little face value.
Willie X
 

doug sinclair

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I regularly turn down clocks with Rathbun bushings, screw-in bushings, lead solder, or other "Clockmaker Hall of Shame" type repairs! I find no pleasure in working on stuff like this. I just declined a watch repair because the guy who serviced it in 2013, must have put the dial on with hot glue. No way I could get it off without destroying it! I suggested he seek out the shop that did it, and hand the problem back to them! Undertake to salvage someone else's messy repair out of the goodness of your heart, and you could be in for a world of hurt!
 

Willie X

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On the clock in question, it would be a straight up repair job in my shop. Nothing unusual about cleaning up some old or questionable work.
My point is clear, if you don't repair the clock, the customer might bring it to someone like me who will repair it, at a normal rate ... no problemo. IOW, you let that ~$250, along with a posible life-long customer, walk out th door.
Willie X
 

R. Croswell

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I'm not saying that I wouldn't repair the clock, I've repaired lots of clocks that had Rathbun bushings and worse. What I am saying is that I won't let a clock leave my shop with a lot of half-fast 'repairs' that someone else did that now have my stamp of approval. I'm only going to refuse the job if the customer doesn't want to pay what it takes to fix it right. True, if I won't work on it they may take it elsewhere, but if I let it out and someone else's crappy repair fails I'll get the blame and they will still go somewhere else. The ~$250 price tag mentioned should cover cleaning up most improper previous repairs. It's the customer that comes in with a clock they paid $15 bucks for at a yard sale and thinks any charge over $35 is robbery that I don't need. Just for the record, I live in a small town with a population of about 1000. I'm retired from a couple other professions and do not rely on repairing clocks to make a living, so I don't mind taking the time to do what needs to be done but I do expect reasonable compensation for doing it.

RC
 

R&A

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250.00 is pretty cheap work But I guess when you are retired you can do that sort of thing
 

Kevin W.

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Many here won,t even pay 50 dollars to repair a clock. I would be glad to get 250.
 

kinsler33

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I may be out of order here and I certainly don't want to suggest rules, but I wanted to remind everyone that a discussion of repair prices here may result in trouble, specifically from the Federal Trade Commission of the US government. I too am curious about what others charge to fix clocks, but another group--piano teachers, believe it or not--got into serious trouble with the FTC a year or so ago when they discussed their fees in their newsletter.

Just a thought.

Mark Kinsler
 

Kevin W.

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Perhaps one of the moderators could comment on this, as far as i knew its not against rules.
 

kinsler33

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Perhaps one of the moderators could comment on this, as far as i knew its not against rules.
No, it's not, and I know we have lots of non-US posters. But my concern is that, at least for us down here in the US, the discussion might be considered price-fixing. Again, that's what happened to the piano teachers.

That said, I've been following the discussion with great interest.

Mark Kinsler

not a moderator, or even a wannabe moderator.
 

R&A

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Q: Our company monitors competitors' ads, and we sometimes offer to match special discounts or sales incentives for consumers. Is this a problem?
A: No. Matching competitors' pricing may be good business, and occurs often in highly competitive markets. Each company is free to set its own prices, and it may charge the same price as its competitors as long as the decision was not based on any agreement or coordination with a competitor.
No one here has done this. No laws have been broken. Read the whole page and you will have a better understanding of what you think has transpired. For your interest
https://www.ftc.gov/tips-advice/com...itrust-laws/dealings-competitors/price-fixing
 

R. Croswell

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I may be out of order here and I certainly don't want to suggest rules, but I wanted to remind everyone that a discussion of repair prices here may result in trouble, specifically from the Federal Trade Commission of the US government. I too am curious about what others charge to fix clocks, but another group--piano teachers, believe it or not--got into serious trouble with the FTC a year or so ago when they discussed their fees in their newsletter.

Just a thought.

Mark Kinsler
I believe the ~$250 mentioned by Willie and repeated by me is a purely hypothetical amount for the purpose of discussion and not an offer to repair a clock for that amount.

RC
 

shutterbug

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There are no specific rules about mentioning prices for repairs, and earlier threads show that the prices vary a lot by location and competition. Any offers to repair and discussions about specific prices for such work should take place off the board, however. Email addresses can be exchanged via private messages. All should be aware though that there are 'bots and spiders working the web constantly, seeking private information.
 

BLKBEARD

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I think Servicers/Repairers determine their own rates based on many factors.
Their regional cost of living
Population density........Supply & Demand
Quite a few post their General Repair Fee's on their website
Some like to price repairs at the "Going Rate"
Some repair at hourly rates
Some repair at a flat rate
Some repair a little less than what they feel is the going rate to attract bargain hunters.
Some like to charge above the going rate to attract the "You get what you pay for Customer"

I think in every industry everyone tries to find out what the other guy is charging and figure out "Am I charging too much, too little, or just right"

If a Real Estate Broker tried charging a 40% sales commission, I'd doubt they'd get many listings when everyone else charges 4-6% +-
 

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