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Please show your Waltham Model 1872's - all grades

Clint Geller

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Here are pix of two early 16 jewel Am'n Grade Model 1872 movements, compliments of my watchmaker. One of them, SN 670,578, is what John calls "push set" and the other, SN 670,941, is lever set.

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Tom McIntyre

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Dear Ethan,

Thank you for supporting this effort with some of your own images. Post #7 of this thread addresses your question. It shows a close-up of the "nail setting" attachment adjacent to the pertinent patent date engraved on the case. That attachment converts the movement from pin setting to nail setting. I believe there are a few pin set Model 1872 movements, perhaps mostly Park Road Grade movements, in button set cases too, by the way.

Clint
While pin set is correct, it is also the same mechanism as in the button set models. English watches and the U.S. Watch Co examples of the mechanism have a lozenge that protects the button and only exposes the top. I think those are the ones that are properly called pin set, but it is all pretty subjective.
 

Clint Geller

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While pin set is correct, it is also the same mechanism as in the button set models. English watches and the U.S. Watch Co examples of the mechanism have a lozenge that protects the button and only exposes the top. I think those are the ones that are properly called pin set, but it is all pretty subjective.
Yes, pin set watches tend to have a lozenge-shaped olivette that protrudes from the band. John preferred to call the setting mechanism on those particular early M72 movements "push set," so I have deferred to his expertise.
 
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Clint Geller

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Here is 21 jewel AWCo Grade movement SN 1,265,940, another example from the fourth AWCo Grade run, and the last slow beat train AWCo Grade run. The winding wheels may be unique, and I love the range of different damaskeening patterns appearing on the plates. Of all the watches I've ever sold, I may miss this one the most. The 18K AWCo case is a gorgeous drum style and the glass enamel dial has an old English "AWCo." signature. Alas, I have only an electronic image of an older film picture of the movement to offer here.

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MikeRyan

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I thought I would start a thread dedicated to my favorite watch model: The Waltham Model 1872. I'll get the ball rolling with one of mine: 21 jewel open face AWCo Grade Model 1872 SN 2,788,104, bright nickel finish, glass enamel A.W.Co. dial, 14K "Waltham" drum style case. I've shown this one before, but I'll have two recent acquisitions, in addition to several other older ones, to show fairly shortly.

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That’s a real beauty!
 

Clint Geller

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Clint Geller

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Here is another lovely example from Tom McIntyre's website, 21 jewel AWCo Grade example SN 2,605,071. I like the combination of radial lines and the circumferential rope pattern of decoration on the winding wheels. The bright nickel plates and the steelwork are lovely as well. I can't see a scratch or a blemish on them. I like the Breguet ("moon") hand style as much as the slender sculpted steel hands more often seen.

The AWCo Grade balance cock of Movement SN 2,605,071 is beautifully original. Only American Watch Co. Grade Model 1872 balance cocks like this one show the words "Fast" and "Slow" completely spelled out above the regulator index, rather than being represented only by their first letters "F" and "S." it is useful to know that when a balance cock has been replaced, the present of an "F" and "S" is a quick way to tell that a lower grade part has been substituted.

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1667064311972.jpeg
 
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Clint Geller

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Here is an interesting early Model 1872 movement, SN 625,121, that just turned up on ebay. I don't know the seller:

16s Waltham HC button set first run mod 1872 Park Road pocket watch movement | eBay

The movement is listed as "button set," and like Jerry's Park Road example, SN 750,121 shown in Post #3, it is marked both "Amer'n Watch Co." and "Park Road." But unlike SN 750,121, SN 625,121 features an interesting exposed winding click next to the main wheel. My watchmaker friend informs me that Waltham's earliest 8 Size movements have similar exposed winding clicks. The portion of the regulator arm of the Park Road movement to which the hairspring attaches seems subtly different than others I have seen as well.
 
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MrRoundel

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Yeah, those Park Roads with the "economically" placed winding wheels are pretty neat. I haven't seen a lot of them. Cheers.
 

Clint Geller

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Here is another one from the J&H website, 21 jewel AWCo Grade Movement SN 2,719,004, another of the 180 open face gold dome movements. The winding wheels are quite unusual with a braided rope pattern on top of a frosted finish and set between concentric circumferential lines. I have not seen another set of Model 1872 winding wheels with a frosted finish in combination with other decorations. This example is from the final run of gold dome AWCo Grade Model 1872's, which is also the first run of AWCo Grade Model 1872's to feature a complete set of raised gold train wheel settings on the top plate. On all earlier runs, all these settings save for the center wheel setting, were flush with the top plate. The last two runs of gold dome model movements have brightr nickel finish as well. The next run, at SN 2,605,001, no longer features the gold dome.

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Rick Hufnagel

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I bought this late Royal grade movement shortly after starting to learn about watches because I thought it was a nice looking 16s Waltham. It was not long before realizing it wasn't getting a case, lol.

Regardless, I've kept it because it has a really interesting setting mechanism. It uses a winding/setting clutch and a shipper spring tripped by the setting lever.

I feel like this setting mechanism is a few years ahead of it's time. Love it. Plus ... that Fogg regulator is just neat! 155fb8e38c803f0ac4409599ff6b7374.jpg 15ec92176f8fe3a98e090690d02b1eac.jpg
 

Clint Geller

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I bought this late Royal grade movement shortly after starting to learn about watches because I thought it was a nice looking 16s Waltham. It was not long before realizing it wasn't getting a case, lol.

Regardless, I've kept it because it has a really interesting setting mechanism. It uses a winding/setting clutch and a shipper spring tripped by the setting lever.

I feel like this setting mechanism is a few years ahead of it's time. Love it. Plus ... that Fogg regulator is just neat! View attachment 734116 View attachment 734117
Thank you for posting this, Rick. According to the hand transcribed Waltham factory ledgers as summarized by the NAWCC's SN lookup utility, your movement is out of the final group of 3,000 hunting case Model 1872 movements, all of the "Royal" Grade, finished within the SN range from 4,109,501 to 4,310,000 between May and November, 1890:

NAWCC-Info
 
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Clint Geller

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Here is a 15 jewel "Am. Watch Co." Grade movement, SN 1,637,520, with nickel plates but an engraved brass pallet bridge, and the sickle-shaped regulator index arm variation with the index scale on the train plate instead of the balance cock. In principle, the longer index arm and expanded index scale would have provided the opportunity for finer rate adjustment.

1667217475976.jpeg
 
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Clint Geller

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Yeah, those Park Roads with the "economically" placed winding wheels are pretty neat. I haven't seen a lot of them. Cheers.
Hi MrRoundel, by "economically" placed, do you mean that there is no recess milled in the top plate to receive them?
 

Clint Geller

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Here is an interesting early Model 1872 movement, SN 625,121, that just turned up on ebay. I don't know the seller:

16s Waltham HC button set first run mod 1872 Park Road pocket watch movement | eBay

The movement is listed as "button set," and like Jerry's Park Road example, SN 750,121 shown in Post #3, it is marked both "Amer'n Watch Co." and "Park Road." But unlike SN 750,121, SN 625,121 features an interesting exposed winding click next to the main wheel. My watchmaker friend informs me that Waltham's earliest 8 Size movements have similar exposed winding clicks. The portion of the regulator arm of the Park Road movement to which the hairspring attaches seems subtly different than others I have seen as well.
Here is a complete early Park Road button set watch with Movement SN 625,563 in an original open face sidewinding coin silver case with gold hinges and an October 1873 date artfully engraved on the dust cover. The setting button is apparent. The watch is from my watchmaker's collection. John graciously took the pictures for us.

M72 Pk Rd SN 625,563 silver OF sidewinder button set case.JPG Pk Rd movt SN 625,563 in button set case.JPG rear case view.JPG dated cuvette inscription.JPG setting button band.JPG
 
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Clint Geller

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Here is another one of my watchmaker's examples, open face 21 jewel AWCo Grade Movement SN 2,717,945. The damaskeening pattern is four layers deep on this bright nickel movement, and I especially like the way the triple-tiered circumferential rope pattern and the radial line pattern on the winding wheels enhance one another. Notice the presence of a dust ring on this movement. Dust rings appeared on Model 1872 movements after approximately SN 2 million, and this design change can affect movement compatibility with earlier cases unless the dust ring is removed (never a good idea).

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Clint Geller

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Here are two more movement pictures from my watchmaker - a rare open face example of the "Royal" Grade Model 1872 (but which is listed in the hand transcribed factory ledgers as "Riverside, Special") and an open face Riverside Grade example with nonmagnetic escapement. Both have Woerd's cam ("tadpole") regulators and are in silver Model 1872 cases.

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Clint Geller

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Here is another one of mine. I have shown it before, but there is a point to getting all of these images, and as many other Model 1872 images, on a single thread. I have one more of mine to show after this one, which I will show when my watchmaker is done with it, but I have several friends' watches that I have permission to show as well. Here is SN 3,349,025 out of the final run of AWCo Grade Model 1872's, all of which, at least according to the records, were finished in 1891, six years after the company's name changed from AWCo to AWWCo. This movement, signed "William Moir, NY," is one of only two private label AWCo Grade Model 1872's of which I know. The damaskeening is particulary spectacular. The interesting AWCo Grade winding wheels combine the subtle radial line pattern seen on 19 jewel Model 1888 winding wheels with a second decorative pattern that one might describe as "bunting." The very appropriate double sunk glass enamel Old English dial and 18K hunting case, which the previous owner chose for this movement, are both signed "AWWCo." This marking is rare on 18K Model 1872 cases.

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I thought it would be good to provide a link to one of the other three known private label AWCo Grade Model 1872 examples, one of two made for E. A. Thrall of NY:

Waltham model 1872 Multicolor - Bogoff Antique Pocket Watch # 7079
 
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Clint Geller

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Here ia another rare marked "nonmagnetic" AWCo Grade Model 1872, hunting case movement SN 3,127,956, finished in 1890. It has AWCo Grade winding wheels of the deceptively "simple" radial line style characteristic of contemporaneous 19 jewel AWCo Grade Model 1888 production. In my nearly 40 years in the hobby I have come across or have seen reports of exactly eight marked nonmagnetic AWCo Grade Model 1872's.

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Clint Geller

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Here is a Model 1872 variety I have not seen before, a 7 jewel gilt keywind example with internal winding wheels, marked "Am. Watch Co." My watchmaker informs me that these were made for export and that they have independent seconds, that is, the second hand can be stopped and started independenly of the minute and hour hands. Hence the misleading claim in the ebay ad that this movement is a "chronograph."

very rare 16s Waltham model 1872 key wind chronograph pocket watch movement | eBay

Of course, everything on ebay is "very rare."
 
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Clint Geller

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Here is American Watch Company Grade Model 1872 SN 871,163 in its 18K AWCo hunting case. This movement is out of the Second Run of 100 American Watch Company Grade Model 1872 movements at SN 871,101. Like the First Run of AWCo Grade Model 1872's at SN 670,001, the Second Run also features an adjustable screw or cylindrical plug bearing the curb pins of the regulator. (It may indirectly affect isochronism by changing the effective spacing between the curb pins when it is turned, but its purpose was to accommodate hairsprings of two different lengths and thicknesses.) The conventional wisdom is that this feature has to do with isochronism adjustment. The first 61 Second Run movements have 18 jewels. According to the hand transcribed Waltham factory records, the first 21 jewel Model 1872, and hence the first 21 jewel regular production Waltham watch, was SN 871,162. Therefore, movement SN 871,163 shown here is at least nominally the second Waltham 21 jewel regular production watch, preceded only by one, or perhaps two exceptional American Watch Co. Grade 20 Size Keywind movements with hole jewels on both sides of their vibrating hairspring stud arbors, but these were not "regular" products. Depending on whether the first Waltham 21 jewel Model 1872's or the first 21 jewel Grade 72 Elgin convertibles reached the market first (either way, it was darn close!), movement SN 871,163 may in fact be the second regular production 21 jewel American watch of any make, period. It is also the second AWCo Grade Model 1872 movement all of whose jewel settings are gold, as the earlier 18 jewel movements have some brass settings. The 18 jewel Model 1872 movements have five of their eighteen jewels in gold settings. The 21 jewel Model 1872 movements have seventeen of their twenty one jewels in gold settings.

Movement SN 871,163 has a square roller jewel, which is a Charles vander Woerd innovation that sometimes appears in conjunction with his patented unequal lift escapement and which sometimes, as on movement SN 871,163, appears on its own in an otherwise standard escapement. My watchmaker opines that Woerd's square roller jewel resulted in less variation than a standard D-shaped roller jewel in the depth of engagement between the tines of the fork and the roller jewel when the movement is not horizontal. As such, John argues that it at least theoretically produced smaller positional variations in rate that result from the necessary sideshake in the fork arbor and balance staff. Whether a performance improvement from square roller jewels was actually realized in practice is unknown, and Woerd himself was silent about his reasons for adopting them.

dial view in case.jpg Movt in case -2.JPG MOVTIN~4.JPG rear lid interior.JPG DUSTCO~1.JPG case front.JPG Case rear.JPG Plates -2.JPG plates.JPG escapement -1.JPG escapement -2.JPG
 
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Clint Geller

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Clint Geller

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A Question for my fellow Model 1872 enthusiasts:

The hand-transcribed Waltham factory records, excerpted below, list a run of one hundred 21 jewel AWCo Grade Model 1872 movements beginning at SN 1,583,601, which supposedly was finished between March 1882 and February 1886. However, I wonder whether that run ever was made, because no one I know has ever reported an example from that run. Has anyone reading my post ever seen an example from that run?

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Clint Geller

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Here is a lovely 21 jewel AWCo Grade example from a friend's collection, hunting case movement SN 2,642,803, in a 4 ounce 18K AWCo case with a glass exhibition inner cuvette and ornate relief initials of an unusual style on the front lid. Unlike the earlier AWCo Grade Model 1872 runs before the final run of gold dome movements at SN 1.7 million, this later AWCo Grade Model 1872 movement features raised gold jewel settings atop all the train wheel arbors, instead of just one atop the center wheel.

Movt thru glazed cuvette.JPG DSCN7800.JPG dial side.JPG case front.JPG case rear.JPG rear lid interior 4 oz 18K AWCo case.JPG case -1.JPG
 
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Clint Geller

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