Please Show the Most Recent Addition to Your Collection

[Kenny S.]

Got me another Waltham! This one's kinda rare I think:
Model 1899, Manufacture date: 1900, 16s, 17j, HC with a conversion dial to put 12 at the pendant and obviously moves the second dial to 3 o'clock. Runs great.

 

[Clint Geller]

Got me another Waltham! This one's kinda rare I think:
Model 1899, Manufacture date: 1900, 16s, 17j, HC with a conversion dial to put 12 at the pendant and obviously moves the second dial to 3 o'clock. Runs great.

View attachment 596744 View attachment 596745

This is one of the latest conversion I have seen. Interesting.

 

[Kenny S.]

This is one of the latest conversion I have seen. Interesting.

Clint, this newbie had never even seen one before. I have another one coming that shows to be made in '03. I'll post the pics later in the week. What can you tell me about these conversion dial watches?

 

[Jerry Treiman]

An important distinction should be made between factory dials and after-market dials. In the 'twenties and later, hunting case watches started to fall out of favor and the watch companies were stuck with unsold inventory of these movements. Jobbers or other entrepreneurs could put a conversion dial on these to make them easier to sell as open-face watches. Most of the after-market dials were painted metal and I do not see them in the Waltham material catalogs of the era. The really interesting ones, from the factory, are enamel. Is your dial enamel or metal? If the latter it may not be a factory product.

 

[Kenny S.]

Is your dial enamel or metal? If the latter it may not be a factory product.

Jerry, it is painted metal. The one I have coming in appears to be glass enamel, but I won't know for sure until it's in hand. I can tell you that opposed to the painted metal one, the second hand is sunk so I believe that it is factory original.

In the 'twenties and later, hunting case watches started to fall out of favor and the watch companies were stuck with unsold inventory of these movements. Jobbers or other entrepreneurs could put a conversion dial on these to make them easier to sell as open-face watches.

This is an interesting fact and makes sense to me. I too am not a big fan of the HC watches. The cases alone can be such a PITA to deal with. They can be very beautiful however.

 

[Clint Geller]

To add a little to what Jerry has already said, the first group of conversion dials were made shortly after the advent of stem winding in the American watch industry in the late 1860's, in a period in which open face watches simultaneously were beginning to gain in popularity. The public was accustomed to seeing the number twelve in the upright position when they looked at a watch to tell the time. For key wind watches, this preference posed no special difficulty, because one can simply reorient a key wind movement in a case to bring the 12 into the desired position, at most drilling a second locating pin hole, in order to place a given key wind movement in a either a hunting or an open face case. However, stem wound and set hunting case watches naturally wound and set at 3 o'clock, other arrangements being inconvenient, and customers expected an open face stem wound and set movement to wind at 12. Thus, in order to keep 12 in the upright position, it was necessary to design stem wound movements intended for hunting cases such that the winding stem, the center wheel pinion and the fourth wheel pinion (which carries the seconds hand) make a 90 degree angle, whereas open face stem wind movements needed to be designed such that these same elements define a 180 degree angle (i.e., they lay in a straight line). When stem winding was introduced in the late 1860's, hunting cases were the predominant style. Nevertheless, in this period watch manufacturers and retailers alike increasingly needed to accommodate customers who preferred either style of movement. However, watch manufacturers like Waltham and Howard would not come out with their first open face stem wind movement models for quite a few more years, and even after such movements were available, some retailers preferred to avoid the increased inventory cost of carrying two styles of each make, model and grade of movement they sold, movements that sometimes cost more than the gold cases that housed them. Hence, the "conversion" dial was born. Most of these dials have a seconds bit at 3 o'clock, rather than at 6, whereas others (more commonly seen on ladies' watches) simply dispense with the seconds bit altogether. Conversion dials were never very popular, as the seconds bit at 3 was off-putting to many consumers. Similarly, consumers liked seconds hands, if for no other reason than that the seconds hand conveyed the very useful information whether a watch was still running in noisy environments in which the tick could not easily be detected.

In a much later period, as Jerry noted, hunting case movements vanished from the scene almost entirely, so that retailers needed after-market conversion dials to move their old, outdated hunting case watch inventories.

 

[Tom McIntyre]

If you like the conversion dials, E. Howard & Co. made some interesting ones for the early L and N size watches when stem winding appeared that had the seconds at 3:00 and a logo or monogram at 9:00 to give balance to the dial.

Some 1892 model Walthams used the same idea and had the grade name at 9:00 with a circular logo look.

 

[Clint Geller]

If you like the conversion dials, E. Howard & Co. made some interesting ones for the early L and N size watches when stem winding appeared that had the seconds at 3:00 and a logo or monogram at 9:00 to give balance to the dial. ...

Since Tom mentioned Howard conversion dials, here are three examples I could find quickly, all of which are unusual even as conversion dials go. One N Size example has a seconds bit at 3 and an offsetting circular Howard signature at 9. A personalized L Size example has a seconds bit at 3 with a customer's stylized monogram at 9. (As I recall, the case has a matching monogram.) A second L Size example has no seconds bit at all. Two of these particular examples, the N Size dial and the L Size dial with no seconds bit, feature unusual artistic embellishments. These two are signed on their reverses by the dial painter Josiah Moorhouse, who was the Howard dial room foreman.

There are four more conversion dial examples pictured in my August, 1993 NAWCC Bulletin article. (I tried to provide a link, but one must be logged into the NAWCC site to access the Publications/NAWCC Bulletin/Past Issues/1990s/August 1993/ page.) Three examples shown there have seconds bits at 3, but only two of these have circular Howard signatures at 9. The other example, which has obviously been recased (notice the empty lever slot at 1 o'clock), has no seconds bit. I have seen this latter style in the G and L sizes, but never in an N Size Howard dial. (Note that the article calls these dials "transitional dials," referring to the watch market transition that was taking place between key and stem winding, and which began first among luxury watches. However, the more commonly used term for these dials is "conversion dials.")

Yet another, possibly unique Howard conversion dial example is shown in my 2005 book, NAWCC Special Bulletin Supplement #6. That N Size dial, which is pictured in Figure 66 on page 72, is on a watch that belonged to my friend, the late Mr. Gene Fuller (SFNAWCC). It has its circular Howard signature at 9 o'clock on a separate disk of the same diameter as the seconds bit, and like the seconds bit, the separate signature disk is sunk below the plane of the main dial.

E. Howard & Co. production especially created a need for conversion dials for two reasons. First, while Howard's first stem wind watch models were introduced in the L and N Sizes in 1869 and 1871, respectively, both of these designs, also known as the "Series V" and Series "IV" according to the Small-Hackett-Townsend nomenclature, were intended for hunting cases. However, Howard's first N Size open face stem wind design, the "Series VIII," and their first L Size open face stem wind design, the "Series XII," weren't introduced until 1884 and 1895, respectively. So if you wanted an open face stem wind Howard watch in the L or N Size before those respective dates, your only option was a conversion dial. Second, Howard movements were expensive, creating an especially great incentive for retailers to reduce their movement inventory costs through the use of conversion dials, even after open face Howard stem wind movements became available. Yet despite these factors, Howard conversion dials were never that popular. Based on the paucity of surviving examples today, I would estimate their total production at no more than 500. The true number is probably less than that.

 

[Tom McIntyre]

The center one was one of my favorites and one of my first Howard watches. It left my collection when I decided I could not afford to collect Howards and keep up with my other interests as well. I paid an old horse trader $1200 for it in 1982.

 

[Clint Geller]

The center one was one of my favorites and one of my first Howard watches. It left my collection when I decided I could not afford to collect Howards and keep up with my other interests as well. I paid an old horse trader $1200 for it in 1982.

Well, Tom, here is a little trip down memory lane for you. Here are the case, with exhibition back, and the dial of Howard watch SN 55,137 whose dial we have been discussing. Apparently, the case carries matching initials, but not a monogram. This watch passed through my hands sometime after it left yours. I'm not sure where it is now.

For those who may not know, "Semper Paratus," which means "always ready," is the motto of the US Coast Guard.

 

[Christopher Burris]

My guess is the "C" for CLIFFORD. Coat of arms including moto match up close to theirs.
Clifford Name Meaning, Family History, Family Crest & Coats of Arms

 

[Clint Geller]

My guess is the "C" for CLIFFORD. Coat of arms including moto match up close to theirs.
Clifford Name Meaning, Family History, Family Crest & Coats of Arms

I may know the current owner of the watch. I'll let him know about this thread. Perhaps the similarity of the US Coast Guard motto is just a coincidence:

semper paratus - Bing video

The USCG was founded in 1790, but I don't know when their current motto was adopted.

 

[Kenny S.]

I literally just took this out of the box that came in the mail.
Model 1892 Crescent St. Mfg date: 1903, 18s, 21j. HC

As Clint pointed out with his Howard, this conversion dial has an offsetting signature circle opposite the seconds bits. All of this is very intriguing and interesting to me. As I had stated above, just recently I had never seen a watch with a conversion dial, now I own two of them. This comes in a display case as well.



Here is the other Waltham that was in the box:
Model 1892 Vangaurd Mfg. date: 1903 18s 21j. OF.

I thought it was interesting how descriptive the case inscription is.

 

[Joe Blossic]

This reminded me of one I picked up at a Regional in Syracuse a few years back.
Circa 1903, SN# 12652044, Grade 845, M92. 18S, 21J.
The question for the group is why does my 845 get listed as Open Face and Kenny's Vanguard, from about same time, get listed as Hunting - per the NAWCC Waltham database?


Joe

 

[Joe Blossic]

Sorry, my mistake. I picked up the wrong serial number. Never mind

 

[Downing]

Here is the other Waltham that was in the box:
Model 1892 Vangaurd Mfg. date: 1903 18s 21j. OF.

I thought it was interesting how descriptive the case inscription is. View attachment 596984 View attachment 596985

I see a lot of mint and/or near mint cases that were guaranteed for 20 to 30 years. Makes me laugh as here we are, 100+ years later. I guess no one would have believed them if they had guaranteed the cases for 100 years. Under promise and over deliver.

Here's my latest American pocket watch, already posted in another thread but what the heck. It's intended to be a present for my three-month old grand daughter, when she's old enough not to try to swallow it.

1888 Hampden 15J 6s. Very "girly," so I hope she likes it. If so, and she passes it down to my great-grand daughter someday, the watch should be in the neighborhood of 200 years old at that point. I'll never know, but I like to think that will happen.

 

[Kenny S.]

1888 Hampden 15J 6s. Very "girly," so I hope she likes it.

Beautiful watch Downing. I'm sure she'll love it.

 

[Joe Blossic]

Debated over posting in the thread 'Show off all sizes of your BW Raymonds' or this one ...
Last found in the mailbox ...
Circa 1906 Grade 341 B. W. Raymond, SN# 12283606, M8, 16S, 17J Hunter

 

[Downing]

Nice!

I'll have to post my BW Raymond in that thread.

 

[musicguy]

Debated over posting in the thread 'Show off all sizes of your BW Raymonds' or this one ...

I like this thread too but in the future when someone is looking up
B W Raymond's from the Elgin Sticky thread they will be pointed to the
"Show off all sizes of your BW Raymonds" thread. This thread is more
of a show and and tell. The other is when you want to look at a whole thread
of different BW Raymonds in one place. Both are good but serve different
purposes.

Rob

 

[richiec]

Just got this Wednesday, sold by my great, great grandfather's business in NYC. Bought it primarily because it was the right price, it ran and still had the glass display back, usually they are broken. It is 11 jewels, missing the minute hand (not too easy to find as the arbors are all different diameters and I had nothing to fit it, not even in a broken movement). It has an uncompensated balance, nickel case with the Cross and Beguelin cartouche. I'll give it a cleaning and oiling this week and hope I don't find that the balance still works because of crud, that has happened a few times, the plate pivot is rotating in coagulated grease and works fine even though the pivot is broken, I will see. It is stem wind, pin set.

 

[Leigh Callaway]

Hamilton 946 SN 442145. Bought this last October, so not the latest. I'd like the gent from whom I bought it know that it's been well cared for - just back today from overhaul and keeping excellent time. Superior example of Hamilton's high end railroad watch. From the Hamilton ledger, this watch is one of at least four 946s sold on Sep 23,1906 to A.M. Church, a watch inspector for the Chicago and Northwester and the Chicago, Minneapolis and St. Paul Railways.

 

[Paul Sullivan]

This thread is more
of a show and and tell.

Exactly. It's just all of us posting our latest stuff and dipping our oar in the discussion which is fun and fine. We all like talking about our watches!

 

[James J Nicholson]

My new Columbus

 

[Clint Geller]

My new Columbus

View attachment 598310 View attachment 598311

Lovely. I've seen that style of "woodsman's dial" on watches of several different manufacturers now. Does anyone know whether they were all made by the same party, and if so, who that might have been?

 

[PatH]

Has O'Hara already been ruled out as the maker of the dials like the one on James' watch? I ran across this file today in some scans of The Waterbury (April 1894) that I had made when doing Waterbury Watch Co research at the NAWCC Library and Research Center. It shows 2 different versions of the woodsman numerals.

 

[Kenny S.]

Lovely. I've seen that style of "woodsman's dial" on watches of several different manufacturers now. Does anyone know whether they were all made by the same party, and if so, who that might have been?

Clint, I remember a thread about "Log dial" watches but this was all I found:

O'Hara Log Dial Watches

 

[Joe Blossic]

This is the thread I remember on the log dials - What is this number style?

 

[Joe Blossic]

I have a dial waiting for the right movement. No markings that I see...



Is it just me or does it seem that Columbus dials are more often found with cracks and hairlines than other makers?

 

[Clint Geller]

I remembered this personalized woodsman style dial on a Waltham American Watch Co. grade Model 1872 from Tom McIntyre's website:

AWCo Web

So I am guessing that several sources were available for this style of dial.

 

[James J Nicholson]

Has O'Hara already been ruled out as the maker of the dials like the one on James' watch? I ran across this file today in some scans of The Waterbury (April 1894) that I had made when doing Waterbury Watch Co research at the NAWCC Library and Research Center. It shows 2 different versions of the woodsman numerals.

View attachment 598317

Has O'Hara already been ruled out as the maker of the dials like the one on James' watch? I ran across this file today in some scans of The Waterbury (April 1894) that I had made when doing Waterbury Watch Co research at the NAWCC Library and Research Center. It shows 2 different versions of the woodsman numerals.

View attachment 598317

Great looking dials figures they could only be O'Hara. Now if only I could find one like that.

 

[James J Nicholson]

Has O'Hara already been ruled out as the maker of the dials like the one on James' watch? I ran across this file today in some scans of The Waterbury (April 1894) that I had made when doing Waterbury Watch Co research at the NAWCC Library and Research Center. It shows 2 different versions of the woodsman numerals.

View attachment 598317

Hi Pat, Just curious about the O'Hara lettering on the face of the dial, was this done just for the advertising or did they just stamp O'Hara on the back of the dial as usually found on other examples?

 

[PatH]

Great question, James, and unfortunately I don't have (or remember?) the answer. Here are links to several Bulletin articles about the company that I've added to my reading for today. Maybe we'll find the answer there - if not, at least we will know a little more about the company.
Log In
Log In
Log In

[EDIT: The links just say Log In, but they do link to the articles if you're logged in to the NAWCC main site.]

Not the latest addition to my collection by any means, but this is a Trump Cyclometer (Waterbury Watch Co) advertising piece with an O'Hara pin. The third article above discusses O'Hara's entry into the market for bicycle-related items.

 

[Kenny S.]

Just got this one:
Amn. Watch 1872 16s, 16j, Button set, S/N: 600075 making it just the 75th '72 off the line. It's definitely a project watch as it's showing its age and needs a lot of help. I don't know how many of these first '72s were button set. I'm guessing the first run of 100? Does anyone here know? I find this early history of a watch model to be fascinating. I'm stoked to own a piece of history.

 

[Clint Geller]

Congrats, Kenny. I don't know the actual production total, but I believe button set Model 1872's are very scarce in any grade.

 

[Kenny S.]

I don't know the actual production total, but I believe button set Model 1872's are very scarce in any grade.

Agreed. Your link to Tom M's website in post #330 above alludes to this as well, although he doesn't specify any numbers. If anyone here knows, I'm sure he does, or perhaps Ethan Lipsig might know as well.

 

[Andrew Wilde]

I spend most of my time on the European forum, given that my main interest is English lever and verge pocket watches, but I do have a small side collection of pre-1900 Walthams. I picked this one up late last year in a mixed lot of otherwise unremarkable model 1883s. Just got round to cleaning it and it's now a keeper and the latest addition to my Walthams. A model 1899 16S/11J two-tone, it just makes it into the pre-1900 category. It came in an unoriginal Fahys rolled gold case and I think that's where it will stay - they look rather nice together. Running well and keeping time. Very unusual to find one of these in the UK

 

[Kenny S.]

Very nice Andrew! I love tone movements, yours is very lovely.

 

[Harold Visser]

Well, Tom, here is a little trip down memory lane for you. Here are the case, with exhibition back, and the dial of Howard watch SN 55,137 whose dial we have been discussing. Apparently, the case carries matching initials, but not a monogram. This watch passed through my hands sometime after it left yours. I'm not sure where it is now.

For those who may not know, "Semper Paratus," which means "always ready," is the motto of the US Coast Guard.

View attachment 596897 View attachment 596898

Clint, I owned 55137 for a while, I believe I might have sold it to that rancher in Oregon about 10 years ago........ Meanwhile here are a few more of my Howard transitional dials, both are Moorehouse if I recall correctly.
Harold

 

[Clint Geller]

Clint, I owned 55137 for a while, I believe I might have sold it to that rancher in Oregon about 10 years ago........ Meanwhile here are a few more of my Howard transitional dials, both are Moorehouse if I recall correctly.
Harold

View attachment 598710 View attachment 598711 View attachment 598712

That's a great case, in the middle picture there, Harold. Could we see more of it?

 

[Clint Geller]

Here is my newest acquisition: 18 jewel American Watch Company grade Model 1868, SN 501,503, the third of the second short run of 20 American grade Model 1868s. I once owned this same movement many years ago. I had always regretted selling it and I never expected to see it, much less have an opportunity to own it again. But through a series of transactions to which I am not privy, the movement lost its original and pristine 18K AWCo engine turned case and ended up in the possession of a friend of mine, who just sold it back to me. Despite the disturbing loss of its case, I was overjoyed to return movement SN 501,503 to my collection. Then, last week I purchased an original Model 1868 display case in the Jones & Horan on-line auction. It had a gilt 15 jewel Model 1868 movement in it at the time, and inasmuch as the Model 1868 has an unique setting lever and thickness, there is no other model of movement that will fit properly in this case. J&H's lot description essentially guaranteed the case to be 14 karat gold. It should have read "at least 14 karat gold," because my friend John Wilson tested it and it is in fact 18 karat gold. In addition to it being gorgeous, the winding crown is solid, rather than hollow, and there is a total of 32 dwt of 18 karat gold in the case, with a scrap value greater than my purchase price. Sometimes you just luck out. Also shown, for comparison, is my other American Grade Model 1868, SN 410,435, an unique example out of the earlier of the two AWCo grade Model 1868 runs, but which was held back and finished many years later with elaborate damaskeening and elegant gold hands. The hunting case of movement SN 410,435 is marked "AWCo 18K," and it is quite hefty, though I haven't weighed it. I suspect it contains three ounces of gold, though.

 

[Clint Geller]

I just weighed the case of movement SN 410,435, and subtracting 5 grams for the crystal, springs and stem, it contains exactly 3.5 ounces of 18 karat gold. That's pretty unusual for a watch with a 16 Size movement.

 

[Ethan Lipsig]

Congratulations, Clint. The1868 AWCOs are scarce. I have #410,470, in its original 18k AWCO case. I don't know the net weight of the case. The gross weight of my watch is 133 grams. What do your movement, dial, and hands weigh?

 

[Clint Geller]

Congratulations, Clint. The1868 AWCOs are scarce. I have #410,470, in its original 18k AWCO case. I don't know the net weight of the case. The gross weight of my watch is 133 grams. What do your movement, dial, and hands weigh?

Thank you, Ethan. A nickel Model 1868 movement weighs 58 grams, and figure the crystal, springs and stem weigh another 5 or 6 grams, so your case has 2.25 ounces of 18K gold in it. I miscalculated the weight of my own case, because I had used the wrong movement weight (32 grams, instead of 32.7 dwt). My case actually has about 2.7 ounces of 18K gold in it, or a bit less if I have underestimated the weight of the springs, crystal and stems. That's still quite heavy for a 16 Size watchcase, but not monstrous. (I didn't value the watch at time of purchase based on case weight, anyway.)

 

[vintageguy]

Congratulations, Clint. The1868 AWCOs are scarce.

Does anyone have an idea about how many 1868s have survived?

 

[Ethan Lipsig]

Thanks, Clint. For a discussion of my watch and photos, see Case Question About Waltham "American Watch Co." Grade 1868.

Based on your weight numbers, the net scrap value of my watch's case is around $2500 if it is 18k, which seems likely. I paid significantly more than that for the watch at an auction in early 2019. The seller had bought it in 2001 at an Antiquorom auction for $10,925, an amount that might not include the buyer's premium. I paid much less for it.

For a further discussion of Model 1868, see American Watch Company Model 1868 v. Model 1872.

Vintageguy, no more than 152 1868 AWCOs were made. I don't know how many survive. Bila seems to be keeping track of AWCO Model 1868 serial numbers. I am hoping he will see this message and reply giving further information about how many of them are still around.

 

[Clint Geller]

Thanks, Clint. For a discussion of my watch and photos, seeCase Question About Waltham "American Watch Co." Grade 1868.

Based on your weight numbers, the net scrap value of my watch's case is around $2500 if it is 18k, which seems likely. I paid significantly more than that for the watch at an auction in early 2019. The seller had bought it in 2001 at an Antiquorom auction for $10,925, an amount that might not include the buyer's premium. I paid much less for it.

For a further discussion of Model 1868, seeAmerican Watch Company Model 1868 v. Model 1872.

Vintageguy, no more than 152 1868 AWCOs were made. I don't know how many survive. Bila seems to be keeping track of AWCO Model 1868 serial numbers. I am hoping he will see this message and reply giving further information about how many of them are still around.

I hope Bila will reply too. That would be an interesting number to know. I thought Tom McIntyre wrote recently that total production was 151, not 152, though. I am told by one who should know that the first run of a hundred movements at 410,401 have slightly simpler damaskeening than movements in the second run at 501,501.

 

[Jerry Treiman]

It’s not American, but it is for an American jeweler. I first saw this watch 17 years ago when I serviced it for a friend who had just bought it on eBay. I was really impressed with the finish and quality of it and have thought about it many times since. Well, recently we both have been re-evaluating our collections and I had a watch that he really wanted, too, so we made a trade. I am excited to finally have this watch in my small collection of quality Swiss watches. The ebauche is very similar to one used by Meylan, but it was finished by Robert Cart, probably in the early 1920s. Cart is better known for the “wandering hour” watches he made for Breguet and Vacheron & Constantin. The fact that this was a private-label watch for Webb C. Ball Co. is an added bonus to me.

 

[Clint Geller]

Here is my newest acquisition: 18 jewel American Watch Company grade Model 1868, SN 501,503, the third of the second short run of 20 American grade Model 1868s. I once owned this same movement many years ago. I had always regretted selling it and I never expected to see it, much less have an opportunity to own it again. But through a series of transactions to which I am not privy, the movement lost its original and pristine 18K AWCo engine turned case and ended up in the possession of a friend of mine, who just sold it back to me. Despite the disturbing loss of its case, I was overjoyed to return movement SN 501,503 to my collection. Then, last week I purchased an original Model 1868 display case in the Jones & Horan on-line auction. It had a gilt 15 jewel Model 1868 movement in it at the time, and inasmuch as the Model 1868 has an unique setting lever and thickness, there is no other model of movement that will fit properly in this case. J&H's lot description essentially guaranteed the case to be 14 karat gold. It should have read "at least 14 karat gold," because my friend John Wilson tested it and it is in fact 18 karat gold. In addition to it being gorgeous, the winding crown is solid, rather than hollow, and there is a total of 32 dwt of 18 karat gold in the case, with a scrap value greater than my purchase price. Sometimes you just luck out. Also shown, for comparison, is my other American Grade Model 1868, SN 410,435, an unique example out of the earlier of the two AWCo grade Model 1868 runs, but which was held back and finished many years later with elaborate damaskeening and elegant gold hands. The hunting case of movement SN 410,435 is marked "AWCo 18K," and it is quite hefty, though I haven't weighed it. I suspect it contains three ounces of gold, though.

View attachment 598929 View attachment 598930 View attachment 598931 View attachment 598932 View attachment 598933 View attachment 598939 View attachment 598940 View attachment 598941 View attachment 598942 View attachment 598943 View attachment 598944 View attachment 598945 View attachment 598946 View attachment 598947

Here is the Waltham 19 jewel nickel 16 Size keywind, SN 501,586, that I recently acquired to complement my Model 1868's. I just received these pix from my friend who cleaned the watch for me. Fewer than 80 of these, a maximum of 79, were made, and this particular example is unusual even for a nickel 16KW in several respects: It has a glass enamel dial, which most do not; it has a flat hairspring, whereas all but one or two other known examples have Breguet hairsprings (flat hairsprings may have been an individual finisher's choice, as flat hairsprings even turn up occasionally on American grade Model 1872's - I owned one); and of course, the especially vivid damaskeening. It is interesting that the nickel 16KWs have 19 jewels and stop works, whereas the nickel Model 1868's have 18 jewels and no stop works. One can speculate on the reasons why. The absence of stop works on the Model 1868s might just be a matter of the space taken up by the Model 1868 winding and setting mechanism. The absence of a center hole jewel on the dial side of the nickel Model 1868's is harder for me to understand, but the first run of American grade Model 1872s mostly were jeweled the same way.

 

[pmwas]

Such beauties you show here, mine turns out to be just a Zenith



Don’t be mistaken. It is an American watch. South American, however.



This arrived from Argentina and I think it was made for South American market.
It is in bad condition and I bought it for parts, but it turned out to be of the wrong size so... I repaired it instead lucky watch, one might say
It’s a practical use of Dennison’s manufacturing system - the 4th gear I took out of a parts’ movement was perfect without any modifications

The balance is bad, neither flat nor true - in fact there are many things already repaired, as this watch clearly suffered a serious fall, telling by a big dent on it’s side.

Still, a working South American Zenith