Authentic please rate my solid gold Rolex conversion pocket watch

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svenedin

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You did ask for opinions! I hate it and wish it had remained a pocket watch as intended. It was never designed as a wristwatch and looks completely ridiculous with the movement rotated. At least the early, genuine pocket watch conversions used hunter movements with the winder at 3 not 12. It’s an unremarkable Rolex movement though quite pretty. I hope it can be put back how it should be. As a pocket watch!
 
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Brunod

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please rate my solid gold 9K Rolex conversion pocket watch

View attachment 714434
Could you explain what you have done ? Did you buy or did you make the case ?
And concerning the face, did you make the hands or were they already made in 2 colors ?
I presume it's quite a big watch.
I'm not the biggest fan but I appreciate the job done.
BD
 

aucaj

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While I would never dispose of a pocket watch’s case for the sake of a conversion, it is a better job than many others. And in my opinion a conversion is better than an orphaned movement without any case.
 
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svenedin

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While I would never dispose of a pocket watch’s case for the sake of a conversion, it is a better job than many others. And in my opinion a conversion is better than an orphaned movement without any case.
BUT it obviously did have a case because the OP shows the inside of the back with Birmingham hallmarks for 1935
 

Antique Watch

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Dear Sirs, watch was bought on ebay as not running, case was all in dents and back cove was not been abel to close. I restored all of that and transform it wrist watch.
This is a kind of my business. I have do that more then 12 years becouse of high demand. but mostly people ask me to transformed their own pocket watches saved in time from their grandfarthers. They want to use them not to save in shelfes. Also have no problem with reconvertation it back to pocket watch. Just need to cut 4 lugs, and soldered the canon with ring back and lengthen the thread one sm of winding stem. That will takes to me abt 4-5 hours of work. Also watch does not loos more then 10 persent of it s original parts so it remainds in it's originality, is nt it?
Dial and hands was coming with it so i have no riasons to think that smth wrong with them.
I want to try to sell that watch on bonhams and I'm interesting in your opinion of its originality and who knows what of Rolex caliber is it? I know that it is Cortebert caliber for rolex only Rolex Cortebrt Calibers have inverted escapment finger. But who can help me what exactly caliber is it. So what I find in internet in attach.

160330_cort_transition.jpg 220421-rolex-panerai-6154-all-known-watches-movements.jpg Screenshot_41.jpg
 

svenedin

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If you have the skills to do the conversion you could have repaired the original case and kept it as a pocket watch. I don’t agree pocket watches sit on shelves. I have worn a pocket watch every day for decades and I’m not that ancient!
 

Antique Watch

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As it known Rolex pocket watches was never had movement and case identical numbers. In that old time Rolex received movements from Cortebert and other suppliers from one side and cases from Dennison, Borgel and Stockwell from other side. So cases were had numeration of manufacture plant. Rolex at that time had no equipment and machine tools for that. Only later when he start stamping numerations of movements and cases of wrist watches on his own factory they will start to be identical.

Unfortunatly in old times sizes of wrist watches was too small for modern mens and womens. so this is only the way to get original big size original antique Rolex watch on the wrist.
The movement is a Cortebert 618.

and if you check the serial number and date posted here then match it with the one on the watch displayed, maybe the case back is not from this watch?
 

roughbarked

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I wasn't talking about the case number.
I was talking about the serial number on the watch.


Though because I cannot clearly define the serial on the watch from your photo, could you please state the serial here?

There are also more oddities.
The Cortebert 618 was apparently provided to Rolex/Penerai between 1940/44
The pallet cock/bridge on your movement was apparently introduced in 1956, if it belonged to a Cortebert 618.
Though I believe yours is closer possibly to a Cortebert 526.

I'm only trying to clear things up.
 
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Antique Watch

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I wasn't talking about the case number.
I was talking about the serial number on the watch.


Though because I cannot clearly define the serial on the watch from your photo, could you please state the serial here?

There are also more oddities.
The Cortebert 618 was apparently provided to Rolex/Penerai between 1940/44
The pallet cock/bridge on your movement was apparently introduced in 1956, if it belonged to a Cortebert 618.
Though I believe yours is closer possibly to a Cortebert 526.

I'm only trying to clear things up.
Sir
I'm afraid it is not 526 because (please look at photo bellow) it has different main plate and escaipment finger.
seria of 618 caliber is very complicated it has a lot of variations with 15 and 17 jewels, also it may has different external size and thickness adaptations for different pocket watch cases. undoubtedly it is 618 family but which one exactly caliber 616-618-622 and all of them was instaling by Rolex.
It is hardly to recognize wich one exactly because I have found not enough photos with all modifications.

Screenshot_42.jpg
 

roughbarked

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Regardless of the caliber. Though it is an interesting exercise. Does the serial number on your watch match the date of the hallmarks on the case? It is simply something that I'm trying to make sense of.

My opinions aside on the application, the work you have done is good.
 

Antique Watch

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Regardless of the caliber. Though it is an interesting exercise. Does the serial number on your watch match the date of the hallmarks on the case? It is simply something that I'm trying to make sense of.

My opinions aside on the application, the work you have done is good.
sure I'll tell you number but firstly you please tell me where you want to find history of all pocket watch modifications 618 family produced by cortebert factories?
 

Bernhard J.

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As to a value, I would like to set it in relation to this fully authentic Bubble Back, which I bought for €2,300.-- last year. 14K case, very good condition, running perfectly. The only fault: gold flaking off the (original) winding crown. Considering this, if I would like your watch, I would take the material value of the case and add a maximum of 500.-- €, if the enamel dial is in mint condition (no hairlines). Others might, however, like it so much that more is paid. Depends on the auction audience and, thus, luck.

I do not think that the current (and imho crazy) Rolex hype extends to early ones, or to pocket watch conversions. Good luck with the sale.

Bubbleback3.jpg
 

Antique Watch

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Authenticity is the question here, since that is what you are alluding to. This is up to you to prove. For me, my perogative is to query. I don't have to prove anything.
Dear Sir,
I have nothing to prove to person who not see difference between 526 and 618. All other respected members as know doubt abt its authentisity it is triple signed with the famous movement specialised by cortebert exactly for Rolex. Here not the place for teaching all beginers. but for you last time. Pocket watch numerashion has nothing with rolex wrist watch numerashions. So if you can not show source Rolex pocket watch numbers checking we have nothing to tolking about.
If you take a work to look at rolex pocket watch numbers sold on Christies and Bonhams you can see that pocket watch Rolex numbers even more then 10 million. And have nothing with information abt wrist watch numeration in internet.
So when you will aducate little bit please welcome for posting on NAWCC forums.

panerai_6154_997583_622_618_02.jpg
 

Antique Watch

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Authenticity is the question here, since that is what you are alluding to. This is up to you to prove. For me, my perogative is to query. I don't have to prove anything.
you can see 6 - 7 millions numbers for 1945-1950;
my number 5102ххх for 1935;
it is Cortebert - Unitas - ETA calibers numeration.

Screenshot_43.jpg
 

Antique Watch

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Feb 9, 2015
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As to a value, I would like to set it in relation to this fully authentic Bubble Back, which I bought for €2,300.-- last year. 14K case, very good condition, running perfectly. The only fault: gold flaking off the (original) winding crown. Considering this, if I would like your watch, I would take the material value of the case and add a maximum of 500.-- €, if the enamel dial is in mint condition (no hairlines). Others might, however, like it so much that more is paid. Depends on the auction audience and, thus, luck.

I do not think that the current (and imho crazy) Rolex hype extends to early ones, or to pocket watch conversions. Good luck with the sale.

View attachment 714544
it is solid gold pocket Rolex. Rolex gold pocket watches prices from 3000-5000 usd depending of condition. So you forget one "0" in price. As for your small watch Oyster Perpetual pricing abt 1800-2000 usd depending on size. So you overpayed abt 500 usd and I'm ready to pay you 500 usd for your watch, but I'm suppose you want not to agree. As I know NAWCC forum not a place for pricing , so better 2 stop that.
 

Antique Watch

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Authenticity is the question here, since that is what you are alluding to. This is up to you to prove. For me, my perogative is to query. I don't have to prove anything.
and here you can see 618 calibers hunter variation with serial number 6200437. Truth is as I say movement unfortunately no official information abt pocket watch calibres numeration.

W521941-rolex-pocket-watch-195593-gold-fill-porcelain-dial-50mm-manual-watch-1920-e.jpg
 

Bernhard J.

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it is solid gold pocket Rolex. Rolex gold pocket watches prices from 3000-5000 usd depending of condition. So you forget one "0" in price. As for your small watch Oyster Perpetual pricing abt 1800-2000 usd depending on size. So you overpayed abt 500 usd and I'm ready to pay you 500 usd for your watch, but I'm suppose you want not to agree. As I know NAWCC forum not a place for pricing , so better 2 stop that.
I appreciate that you have done nice work. But your market knowledge does not seem to be second to none. The prices mentioned in your post relate to authentic pocket watches, wherein no recase has taken place, not to speak of conversions, wherin the movement is in an unusual position. And they are asking prices, not prices paid. However, you asked and if the posting was not meant just as a marketing tool, then you should be able to live with opinions, even if they do not reflect what you apparently expected to read.

Upon your question I just told you what I would be prepared to pay, as a collector for pocket- and wristwatches since decades and with at least a small bit of market knowledge. For collectors only originality and condition counts, everything else, in particular conversions, are considered only over the price, which needs to be far away from originals.

Please show me (either in this thread or by PN) a 1930s/40s Bubble Back (chronometer) with original 14K case, original crown, good original dial and well performing movement (with no internal corrosion) for 1800 - 2000 USD, I will purchase it immediately from whoever offers it, as long as it is not stolen.

Aside this, there are always poeple around prepared to pay unreasonable prices, so you might be lucky in finding someone paying 10 k$. Would be absolutely OK for me, as long as it is someone else ;).
 
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Antique Watch

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Feb 9, 2015
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I appreciate that you have done nice work. But your market knowledge does not seem to be second to none. The prices mentioned in your post relate to authentic pocket watches, wherein no recase has taken place, not to speak of conversions, wherin the movement is in an unusual position. And they are asking prices, not prices paid. However, you asked and if the posting was not meant just as a marketing tool, then you should be able to live with opinions, even if they do not reflect what you apparently expected to read.

Upon your question I just told you what I would be prepared to pay, as a collector for pocket- and wristwatches since decades and with at least a small bit of market knowledge. For collectors only originality and condition counts, everything else, in particular conversions, are considered only over the price, which needs to be far away from originals.

Please show me (either in this thread or by PN) a 1930s/40s Bubble Back (chronometer) with original 14K case, original crown, good original dial and well performing movement (with no internal corrosion) for 1800 - 2000 USD, I will purchase it immediately from whoever offers it, as long as it is not stolen.

Aside this, there are always poeple around prepared to pay unreasonable prices, so you might be lucky in finding someone paying 10 k$. Would be absolutely OK for me, as long as it is someone else ;).
I have no reasons to discuss you watch in my post about MY watch. If you want to discuss your watch, open your own post for that. because of that Im thinking you want to use my post to promote somehow your small trench watches for sell. Also your opinion is only your opinion.
I can see that you now nothing abt Rolex pocket watches and valuation of its transforming variants. Do you know why? Because only me do that well. I registrate 4 patents for that. If you read above you can see that after watch conversion it loose not more than 10 percent of it, and this 10 prsnt can be reconverted back. So no problem with its authenticity and value. Also a lot of people, and some people in that post like it. I can show you much more peoples who like my watches in my other posts on NAWCC include moderators.
I understand that my watchers is big problem for your small watches business, but be strong. So please sell your watches by yourself I don't want you to use me for that especially in your bad manner, when you pour mud someone's watch to sell your own))
 

miguel angel cladera

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roughbarked

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Dear Sir,
I have nothing to prove to person who not see difference between 526 and 618. All other respected members as know doubt abt its authentisity it is triple signed with the famous movement specialised by cortebert exactly for Rolex. Here not the place for teaching all beginers. but for you last time. Pocket watch numerashion has nothing with rolex wrist watch numerashions. So if you can not show source Rolex pocket watch numbers checking we have nothing to tolking about.
If you take a work to look at rolex pocket watch numbers sold on Christies and Bonhams you can see that pocket watch Rolex numbers even more then 10 million. And have nothing with information abt wrist watch numeration in internet.
So when you will aducate little bit please welcome for posting on NAWCC forums.

View attachment 714545
Again, I have nothing to prove. I was only asking questions. Thank you for attempting to prove the authenticity but you gain nothing from trying to rubbish me. I can and would make a watch case like this to house a good movement but I wouldn't be attempting to claim that it was an authentic antique.

I wouldn't be looking at auction sites to see what people pay for things. The thing is, this is what it costs. Which has little at all to do with actual worth.
 
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zedric

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Here not the place for teaching all beginers. but for you
It is a shame that you come to these forums with such an attitude. If you look at the title of the forum you are posting in, it is clearly dedicates to Horological Education - the forum being "Horological Education - Watches - European & Other Pocket Watches".
 

Antique Watch

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Again, I have nothing to prove. I was only asking questions. Thank you for attempting to prove the authenticity but you gain nothing from trying to rubbish me. I can and would make a watch case like this to house a good movement but I wouldn't be attempting to claim that it was an authentic antique.

I wouldn't be looking at auction sites to see what people pay for things. The thing is, this is what it costs. Which has little at all to do with actual worth.
As I undestand now you have no questions to movement.
After your above demonstrated apparent inability to distinguish one caliber from another you anonce your possibility to make exact copy of Dennison case. Nobody on earth can not do that. That just show that you have no Idea about precision and hardship of that work. This is a pink dream of all fakemakers so that is only your bla bla. Think nobody on nawcc will belive to that fanny words. Also nobody interesting in opinion in man who telling that. And by the way if you think that case of that watch is made by hands whay you dont say that I made by hands the movement also?
I was not trying to prove the authentisity, I just done that documented if you not undestand yet.
 
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Dr. Jon

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I am going to lock this thread.

As moderator I get to have the last word and this is my view:

I do not like, and will try to discourage rating of watches as collectables. We can rate them for running rate and argue about authenticity or the value of conversions but the idea of rating a watch in a general sense strikes me as a very bad topic for conversation.

I will encourage a thread on the merits of conversion of old watches to more contemporary or accessible forms.

As to the value of such conversions I favor an old definition of a fair price. It the price some with the money will pay to a seller who knows that the item is.

On the specific subject of old pocket movemenet converted for wrist wear I suggest they be posted on contemporary watchmaking, wich I also moderate and which can use the traffic.

This forum is about Eurtopean and Other Pocket watches and by its nature it teh place of pocket watch people. OUr nature is to abhor conversions away from pocket watches. It is not the only such view in horology or in the NAWCC but it what we do here.

Going forward if I see another inquiry regard a pocket to wrist conversion I will move it either to contemporary horology or the wrist watch area.

I prefer contemporary hhorlogy because that is where I hope the people most favorable to good contemporary work will hang out and post.

My aplogies for getting to this late
 
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