Please help me date and identify this awesome German iron chamber clock?

Discussion in 'General Clock Discussions' started by rdbeeline, Aug 31, 2015.

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  1. rdbeeline

    rdbeeline Registered User

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    #1 rdbeeline, Aug 31, 2015
    Last edited: Aug 31, 2015
    Chamber or lantern clock 2015 001.jpg Old lantern or chamber clock 2015 097.jpg Old lantern or chamber clock 2015 107.jpg Old lantern or chamber clock 2015 161.jpg Old lantern or chamber clock 2015 279.jpg Old lantern or chamber clock 2015 306.jpg Old lantern or chamber clock 2015 140.jpg

    Please help me date and identify the clock maker for this beautiful piece! The bell is hand hammered ( forged ) from a single 1/8" brass plate! This clocks runs with the alarm working also. I have been working for a year to identify the origins and time period of this iron clock. Very clean and beautiful. Too date have not seen another hand fabricated bell on any clock, anywhere? Please help if you can. Dying to know more. Could this be from (1514 to 1741) the Swiss family of Liechti? They made similar iron frame bare stock construction ( three hole angled sides ) design for over 300 years. I have hundreds of chamber and English lantern clocks but not one even close to this.
    :confused:
    Thanks,
    Chamber or lantern clock 2015 001.jpg Old lantern or chamber clock 2015 097.jpg Old lantern or chamber clock 2015 107.jpg Old lantern or chamber clock 2015 161.jpg Old lantern or chamber clock 2015 279.jpg Old lantern or chamber clock 2015 306.jpg Old lantern or chamber clock 2015 140.jpg
    Rusty Davis
    My email is: rdsales-training@fairwaycanyon.org
     
  2. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
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    I know nothing about old lantern clocks but the brass bell is suspicious of a replica. Bell making was an art unto its own; its artisans avoided brass and instead favored their own proprietary bell alloys resembling bronze and often containing enough silver to produce the desired tone.

    Too, there are minor details in its fabrication requiring tooling and processes not available until the industrial revolution of the middle 1800's that suggest the example in the photos is a replica.

    On the other hand, the Antikythera mechanism and the like of another age required significant "quasi-industrial age" metal cutting and shaping tools.
     
  3. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    Les could be right. This was a much copied clock.
    You might unscrew one of the screws and measure the threads.
    A replica would have used a more typical thread that is available today.
    The real thing would have had the threads made to an arbitrary
    pitch and diameter.
    You should not have oil on the teeth of the wheels and pinions.
    If it is an old clock, it will cause excess wear over time.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  4. rdbeeline

    rdbeeline Registered User

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    Thanks Guys for the helpful information so far! I am checking into the threads cut, quality, pitch and thread count. I included are some pictures of machined surfaces that might also help. The bell is extremely loud on the hour chimes also. I was wondering what the benefit would be from someone to go thru all painstaking steps and motions to replicate this clock? This bell I would think be very labor intensive to form. It looks like thousands of strikes were needed to form the shape of the bell. Also I was not aware that oil of any kind had bad effects on old metals ( brass or metal gears )? What is thought of the primitive patterns on the clock face and frets? Could this be a combination of an old clock with new parts? This also clock shows a lot of very visible scribe marks still present from the maker on the iron inside gear plates?

    Thanks again for this help with this.
    RDBeeLine Old lantern or chamber clock 2015 114 THREADS 2.jpg Old lantern or chamber clock 2015 114 THREADS 1.jpg Old lantern or chamber clock 2015 114 THREADS 6 UNDERSIDE OF BELL 6.jpg Old lantern or chamber clock 2015 114 THREADS 9.jpg Old lantern or chamber clock 2015 114 THREADS 10.jpg Old lantern or chamber clock 2015 114 THREADS 11.jpg
     
  5. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    #5 Tinker Dwight, Sep 2, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 2, 2015
    The oil it self will not hurt the gears. It is the dust and grim that
    the oil attracts that does the damage. Any surface rust on parts will
    be a source of grinding grit. As rust forms, it expands. In doing this,
    tiny particles of rust are launched into the air in random directions.
    If it lands in the oil, is will create grinding grit.
    Although, one might think that gears
    are slipping against each other, they should really be doing a kind of
    roll/slip.
    Gears that have been running for a 100 years without oil don't show wear.
    Gears that have been oiled show wear in 10 or 20 years.
    If we could avoid oiling pivots and bushing, there would be little to repair in
    a clock.
    Oil is a necessary evil.
    That nut looks like a end of the 1900th century to modern. I'm
    not sure when nuts were first created with a shear. I'd have thought
    earlier ones would be forged or turned.
    When looking at threads, don't forget whitworth.
    I find an easy way to measure pitch is to take a piece of paper
    and roll it around the screw. Use your thumb to stretch a little
    of the paper into the threads ( only need to do this on one side ).
    Take a flat piece of pencil lead ( a carpenters pencil is handy here )
    and slide it along the tops of the teeth.
    It will leave nice spaced marks on the paper that can be measured.
    I find it easier to count the marks if put an additional tic mark next to
    every 2 or 3 teeth marks. Each tic is a little different and easier
    to keep straight as to what I'm counting.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  6. rdbeeline

    rdbeeline Registered User

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    Last night I made note of more possible identifying features on this clock in several locations: It seems "Dovetailing" of certain components and even a brass gear tooth repair are evident. How long has this type of fastening components together been around? It looks liks silver soldering or brazing was also used in these joints? Please see pictures and let me know if these may indicate a possible original make or component repair time frame indication? Note the picture of the balance wheel main body arm has an inverted dovetail slip in the machined balance CONSISTANT JOINTS STYLE 015.jpg CONSISTANT JOINTS STYLE 041.jpg CONSISTANT JOINTS STYLE 065.jpg CONSISTANT JOINTS STYLE 070.jpg wheel mount?
    Thanks for taking another look.

    RDBeeline
     

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  7. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    Such technics have been used for more than 200 years
    for repairs and construction. I don't think you'll find much
    to go on there.
    Look carefully at the wheels though. Early brass would have
    some voids. Stuff done around 1870 to 1920 would be clean
    of voids.
    One is curious why a count wheel tooth would break and if
    repaired by the original manufacture, why was the profile poorly
    done.
    It may have been done to make the clock look older.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  8. rdbeeline

    rdbeeline Registered User

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    Thanks Tinker, I have see some void ares on a lot of the gears. Another picture of the same gear repaired and the balance wheel main body bar unusual cut and seat for a dovetail? What do you think of this dovetail fit on the balance wheel and on the bell straps? Kinda hard to see on the balance wheel. This is a better picture.

    Thanks again!
    RDBeeline. CONSISTANT JOINTS STYLE 004.jpg CONSISTANT JOINTS STYLE 041.jpg CONSISTANT JOINTS STYLE 032.jpg CONSISTANT JOINTS STYLE 037.jpg CONSISTANT JOINTS STYLE 060.jpg
     
  9. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    #9 Tinker Dwight, Sep 5, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 6, 2015
    It still bothers me that the count wheel would
    need repair. I don't know the train path for your clock
    but usually there is no load on the count wheel.
    That doesn't mean it is or isn't true for your clock.
    I think for much more, you'll have to take it to
    a proper clock appraiser. Thing look a little off, other than
    that I can't help much more.
    They will be able to do the proper investigation.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  10. rdbeeline

    rdbeeline Registered User

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    Thanks again. Can you recommend an appraiser of specialist I can take this to? I live also in the Redlands / Beaumont Ca. area. I travel the Southwest U.S. as a sales territory rep so driving is not a problem. GB three weight GSon 1.jpg GB three weight GSon 2.jpg HOME VALUABLES RECORD 8 16 15 007.jpg HOME VALUABLES RECORD 8 16 15 008.JPG HOME VALUABLES RECORD 8 16 15 039.JPG HOME VALUABLES RECORD 8 16 15 028.jpg HOME VALUABLES RECORD 8 16 15 058.JPG HOME VALUABLES RECORD 8 16 15 077.JPG HOME VALUABLES RECORD 8 16 15 110.jpg HOME VALUABLES RECORD 8 16 15 114.jpg HOME VALUABLES RECORD 8 16 15 130.jpg HOME VALUABLES RECORD 8 16 15 136.jpg HOME VALUABLES RECORD 8 16 15 138.JPG HOME VALUABLES RECORD 8 16 15 140.jpg HOME VALUABLES RECORD 8 16 15 164.jpg HOME VALUABLES RECORD 8 16 15 167.JPG

    I have learned a great deal from you and your advise on this post and have included some pictures of a few other clocks in my collection over the years for you to enjoy.

    Thanks Again!

    RDBeeline.
     
  11. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    Cool collection.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  12. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Find your closest NAWCC chapter, and take your clock to one of their meetings. There should be someone there with the expertise needed to appraise your clock.
     
  13. rdbeeline

    rdbeeline Registered User

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    Thanks Harold,

    I did exactly that as I had been advised to do by local experts a year ago and joined the local NAWCC chapter in Jan of 2014 in Riverside Ca. To date I have had no luck with this clock other than this forum. Everybody is at a loss. Evin Brian Looms in London does not know anything and could not advise me on this steel clock. He just told me it was not English and probably So. German. I will just hang it back up and enjoy it but it sure would be nice to know the history. I understand many of these clocks were collected in Europe at the time and melted down for the war effort in the late 1930's to 40's.
    ---------------------------- If only they all could talk I always hear especially in regards to this one.

    Thanks,

    RDBeeline.
     
  14. gmorse

    gmorse Registered User
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    #14 gmorse, Sep 7, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 7, 2015
  15. rdbeeline

    rdbeeline Registered User

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    Thanks gmorse!
    I appreciate the info.
     
  16. rdbeeline

    rdbeeline Registered User

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    Tinker,

    I found some time to take some measurements on the screws on the clock and thought you might like to see some pictures / results. These have three deferential diameters and thread depths. None are the same in any way including thread depth or cut. The distance between thread center lines is close to five thousands vary each bolt? Basically by choice or accident there are also three different diameters and only fit in certain locations on the top plate of the clock. I have been careful not to mar the head slots while removing and reassembling the frets of the clock to see these.

    Question: Have you ever seen pictures of these type bolts complete with the threaded shank area? I can not find a reference as to what the threads should look like?

    Thanks sooo much again.

    RDBeeline. CHAMBER CLOCK 9 5 15 037.jpg CHAMBER CLOCK 9 5 15 003.jpg CHAMBER CLOCK 9 5 15 005.jpg CHAMBER CLOCK 9 5 15 018.jpg
     
  17. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    Are you sure it is 5 thousandths and not .05.
    50 threads per inch is not that uncommon on newer screws.
    They don't look lathe turned or from a die. They look roller pressed
    as more modern screws might be( forget the exact name for the process ).
    Note that all the screws ends have been cut off. This may
    have been done to hide the ends.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  18. Ralph

    Ralph Registered User
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    On an early clock, the screw slots would be v-shaped.

    Ralph
     
  19. rdbeeline

    rdbeeline Registered User

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    Thanks guys for the follow up. Some interesting things I found when reinstalling these screws back into the frets and the rear top of the clock- I found that there are three separate varying diameter threaded holes to match only three each of the screws in the pictures? I had to fit each screw to each threaded hole while going back together as I did not want to force a tonight fit or strip a loose fit for each screw? The nuts also were not interchangeable for the hammer springs? One top and one on the bottom of the clock. I did not notice this when I removed the screws last week or the nuts or I would have marked them correctly to go back together as I normally do when working on clocks. The depths of the screws had no inside clearance problems with the mechanics of the clock as I made sure of that. On the slotted cut in the screw heads I have seen both the rounded wall "V" cut in just a few examples but most I have seen and collected pictures of seem to have varying depth cut slots like these do? I always thought the slots were simply cut with a saw? I did use three different size slotted head screw drivers to fit the heads perfectly with no slipage as to not harm the fit or slip while tightening. Not easy to get square on some screws because of the tight clearance inside the brass frets. Another note while going back together was each fret had up to a quarter inch difference in mounting hole spacing in the top of the clock? I knew what fret went where but I thought this was also unusual as nothing seemed to be universal and more custom made to fit. I don't know what to make of the ground screw ends as you mention also.
    Thanks,
    A few better pictures of these bolts. These fasteners CHAMBER CLOCK 9 5 15 032.jpg CHAMBER CLOCK 9 5 15 061.jpg CHAMBER CLOCK 9 5 15 021.jpg CHAMBER CLOCK 9 5 15 036.jpg CHAMBER CLOCK 9 5 15 033.jpg are all over the place.
    Thanks again.
    RDBeeline
     

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  20. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    The original makers would have used the same tool for
    cutting all the threads.
    Having slightly different threads has no purpose. Rather than
    make me think it was older, it makes me think it was done
    intentionally.
    It is like intentionally having different tools that one swaps
    around while making it.
    The screws would have unique threads but they would all be the same.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  21. rdbeeline

    rdbeeline Registered User

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    #21 rdbeeline, Sep 12, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 12, 2015
    Thanks Tinker,

    Is it just possible that this is all the maker was capable of at the time or region of country that it was made at? Could these also be hand filed threads on these screws? The only place I have NOT checked for a makers mark is behind the silver face and front engraved face plate? It is riveted and I don't know if it is worth removing the rivets or studs to separate to see. I have read that sometimes the name or markings exist behind the silver dial? Would it be worth it to check? CLOCK 1.JPG

    Thanks!

    RDBeeline.
     
  22. rdbeeline

    rdbeeline Registered User

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    I did the other day find another two tooth section repair on the primary gear while looking at some recent inside pictures of this clock. The replacing teeth profile also looks to be not the same as the teeth it was replacing. It also looks like the repair is cracking? The adjoining CHAMBER CLOCK TWO TOOTH REPAIR PIC HIGH CONTRAST 2.jpg tooth below the repair looks like it has been shock loaded and should have been replaced also? A picture included.

    Thanks,
    The more I look the more I see!

    RDBeeline.
     
  23. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    They most likely would have used a threading cutting plate. They would
    have used the same plate.
    Threading tools are hard to make. I doubt they'd have made
    several, just so each screw was different and then used different
    taps, also hard to make, to match the different screws.
    They would have bought or made a tap to create the plate and then
    used the plate and tap to make nuts and screws.
    A process used since around 1480. Before that it would have been pined.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  24. rdbeeline

    rdbeeline Registered User

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    #24 rdbeeline, Sep 15, 2015
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2015
    Thank you again Tinker! What might you think of this other gear ( two tooth ) repair shown in my past post I just noticed in photos taken a while back?

    If you would ever like to put your hands on this clock in the future I could bring it to you sometime if you would like to meet. I see you are also in So. Ca.

    Please also see my other post in trying to identify the Winterhalder Grandfather clock.

    RDBeeline.
     
  25. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    Actually about 350 miles or so north.
    Tinker Dwight
     
  26. rdbeeline

    rdbeeline Registered User

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    When in the area check out Antique Clock Shop in Pacific Grove Ca. A great shop with lots of great rare clocks to see!
    Leon the shop owner member NAWCC #6052

    RDBeeline.
     
  27. Tinker Dwight

    Tinker Dwight Registered User

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    I'll make a point of it.
    Tinker Dwight
     

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