Please help date

marylander

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Hello, I picked up this Kiennger & Obergfell clock today. The back plate is very similar to Plate 1355 except lack a small hole below first wheel pivot hole. The serial number is 12935. Please let me know if this belong to Plate 1355 family and the datting. Thank you in advance.
Ming
 

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John Hubby

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Hello, I picked up this Kiennger & Obergfell clock today. The back plate is very similar to Plate 1355 except lack a small hole below first wheel pivot hole. The serial number is 12935. Please let me know if this belong to Plate 1355 family and the datting. Thank you in advance.
Ming
Ming, thanks very much for your inquiry and posting of your Kundo clock. The back plate "is" identical to Plate 1355 except does not have the three screw holes for mounting a Kundo suspension guard. These holes are missing because they had not yet introduced that feature to their clocks. The lowest serial number in my database for a Kundo with the suspension guard is 14587, which is 1,652 units (about four months production) later than yours.

On the other hand, your clock now has the honor of being the "first" Kundo having the Kieninger & Obergfell Germany "rising full moon" logo stamp as illustrated on Plate 1355. The previous first was posted about 10 months ago by etmb61 on this forum having serial number 13462, 527 units (about six weeks) later than yours. The two clocks are virtually identical:

12935 Front.jpg 13462 Front.jpg The first clock is yours and the second one is Eric's.

I posted a little story about the "rising full moon" logo recently in This Post in the thread where Eric's clock is featured. There was also a discussion about Socol & Montag (or Sokol & Montag, either one = SMC) clocks. All evidence to date shows that logo format originally belonged to SMC, as it was used exclusively for the clocks made for them by Kundo from the beginning of Kundo production in 1923 and up to the time your clock was made, about April 1926. That happens to be a three-year period of exclusive use, but we don't know what the law was at the time so either the design protection expired (after three years in the same manner as a DRGM utility patent) or SMC agreed to license the design to Kundo. Whatever the case, Kundo continued to use the design until shortly after WWII. During the exclusive period that SMC used it, Kundo stamped their movements with the circular "KO" logo that was registered in 1918 at the time the company was founded. They continued using the circular KO logo in parallel with the Kieninger & Obergfell Germany rising full moon logo during the 1920's and 1930's, and then after WWII it became their only logo stamp by not later than 1949.
 

marylander

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John, Thank you very much for taking time to give us the in depth history lesson. Thank you for the dating. Every time your history lesson make me understand my clocks more and love them more.

From the photo you post, I found my clock has a slightly different base. My base style was also used in some clocks after WWII.
Thank you again for your help.
Ming
 

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John Hubby

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John, Thank you very much for taking time to give us the in depth history lesson. Thank you for the dating. Every time your history lesson make me understand my clocks more and love them more.

From the photo you post, I found my clock has a slightly different base. My base style was also used in some clocks after WWII.
Thank you again for your help.
Ming
Ming, thanks for the additional photo. Actually you've now won the lottery!! Not only does your clock have the lowest serial number documented thus far for Plate 1355 with the Kieninger & Obergfell Germany "full rising moon" logo, you also have the first Kundo design base to go with it. This advances the introduction of their own design base by a little over a year. My data show that the introduction of this base was quite slow and more than three years passed before it almost completely displaced the JUF-style base that was used before.

I couldn't tell for certain which base was with the clock from your earlier photo, thanks very much for the additional photo showing the Kundo version.
 

marylander

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Ming, thanks for the additional photo. Actually you've now won the lottery!! Not only does your clock have the lowest serial number documented thus far for Plate 1355 with the Kieninger & Obergfell Germany "full rising moon" logo, you also have the first Kundo design base to go with it. This advances the introduction of their own design base by a little over a year. My data show that the introduction of this base was quite slow and more than three years passed before it almost completely displaced the JUF-style base that was used before.

I couldn't tell for certain which base was with the clock from your earlier photo, thanks very much for the additional photo showing the Kundo version.
Thank you John for your additional information. I am so sorry that I did not take more photos before got on The forum. I took two photos and posted as soon as I arrived home from my local clock store. I will post more photos when I restore the clock at the later time. I saw the main spring winding pivot has a number 55 stamped at one face of the square.
Ming
 

pollythecat

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Sorry about hijacking this thread but I also got a K & O yesterday and its plate no. and date is doing my head in. The closest I can find in the Horolovar repair guide is plate 1388A but my clock does not have the hole under the fourth wheel bush. I was thinking it was post WW2 but now I am confused :confused:

DSC_4684.JPG DSC_4685.JPG DSC_4686.jpg
 

marylander

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Sorry about hijacking this thread but I also got a K & O yesterday and its plate no. and date is doing my head in. The closest I can find in the Horolovar repair guide is plate 1388A but my clock does not have the hole under the fourth wheel bush. I was thinking it was post WW2 but now I am confused :confused:
[/ATTACH]
I am sure John can rescue you from your confusion! You have a very K&O clock.
Ming
 

John Hubby

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And mine's 45788. I don't think I've asked for dating for this one before?

Glyn
Glyn, thanks for posting! If you posted this one before I missed it as it wasn't in my data. Have added it now, Plate 1355 SN 45788, made right at the beginning of 1932. Do you have the suspension guard? Otherwise your clock appears to be complete and original.
 

GT.NZ

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Hi John,

Yes suspension guard is with it. Possibly one reason that I hadn't asked for dating before is that I had to take off the guard to see that there's a serial number at all, let alone what it is. Guard now back in place and thanks again to your database and personal mine of information.

Glyn
 

John Hubby

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Sorry about hijacking this thread but I also got a K & O yesterday and its plate no. and date is doing my head in. The closest I can find in the Horolovar repair guide is plate 1388A but my clock does not have the hole under the fourth wheel bush. I was thinking it was post WW2 but now I am confused :confused:
Polly, thanks for posting! You picked the correct back plate for your clock and even though the Repair Guide says 1935, based on the serial number 3193 your clock was made near the beginning of 1924. That was the second year of Kundo's production of 400-Day clocks, and they did not have suspension guards until 1926 as I discussed earlier in this thread. Plate 1388A was last used in 1926, after the suspension guard was introduced Plate 1388 and a number of others were used.

It appears your clock is complete and original, and in very good condition.
 

pollythecat

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Thank you John, my K & O is a lot earlier than I thought, it was on Ebay for weeks and no one wanted it and in the end I got fed up with seeing it so bought it to give it a home, also there does not seem to be many early Kundo's for sale.

Condition is OK but the usual monkey business has gone on with the eccentric, I do not think they managed to budge it because the lock/drops are in adjustment and it runs well enough even though it needs a service. The dome is missing and I saw another similar clock to mine with a slightly pear shaped dome, is this right?
 

MUN CHOR-WENG

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Glyn, thanks for posting! If you posted this one before I missed it as it wasn't in my data. Have added it now, Plate 1355 SN 45788, made right at the beginning of 1932.
The one I have with serial number 48269 and Plate 1355 was probably made a few months or even a year later than Glyn's clock.
Except for some loss of paint on the pendulum balls as well as on the movement support columns the overall condition of the clock is good and it still looks attractive without requiring extensive restoration on the paint work. Remarkably the lacquer on the dial is relatively intact to bring out the striking sun-burst effect.

IMG_5058.jpg IMG_5025-001.jpg
IMG_5033-002.jpg IMG_5059-002.JPG

Mun C W
 

John Hubby

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The one I have with serial number 48269 and Plate 1355 was probably made a few months or even a year later than Glyn's clock.
Except for some loss of paint on the pendulum balls as well as on the movement support columns the overall condition of the clock is good and it still looks attractive without requiring extensive restoration on the paint work. Remarkably the lacquer on the dial is relatively intact to bring out the striking sun-burst effect.

Mun C W
Mun, thanks for posting your spectacular Kundo Plate 1355 clock. This is one of the best ones I've seen with this style of lacquering of the dial, movement pillars, pendulum balls and base. Based on the serial number your clock was made a little over 4-1/2 months after Glyn's clock about end-May early June of 1932. It appears to be fully complete and original, I presume you removed the suspension guard for the photos so the back plate would be clearly seen.

One point I would like to mention about Plate 1355 is the position of the click spring tab hole and securing screw hole. The present illustration in the Repair Guide is actually valid only for serial numbers above 52101 made in June 1933 at which time the pendulum base cup was introduced. You will note in the illustration that the click spring tab position hole is toward the center of the clock plate with the securing screw hole to the left. With this arrangement the bend of the click spring is to the left of center, as seen in this photo:

Kundo 1355 Click.jpg

In this position, the click spring is completely outside the suspension guard when the guard is installed.

Prior to the introduction of the pendulum base cup, the two click spring holes were reversed, as seen on Mun's clock. This placed the bend of the click spring slightly inside the suspension guard, which had a cutout to fit accordingly. Thus, you can annotate your illustration in the Repair Guide that "as drawn", the back plate applies only to clocks with serial numbers above 52101 as already noted.

You can also make three other notations for that back plate:

1) The circa date is 1933 to 1939 for the actual illustration.

2) The click spring tab position hole and securing screw hole layout is reversed for clocks made from April 1926 to May 1933. This applies to clocks with serial numbers from 12901 to 52100.

3) There are no suspension guard screw mounting holes for many clocks with serial numbers 12901 to 16101, all made from April to December 1926. The suspension guard was introduced in August 1926 with the transition being completed by the end of 1926, clocks will be found both with and without suspension guards during this transition.

NOTE: It may yet be that the transition serial numbers could change slightly in future as more clock examples are found, however the changes should not be material.
 

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