Pivot too long?

[rsnead]

I've run into something that has me bamboozled. I have overhauled the Ingraham movement from a gingerbread clock. Everything went well. Bushings were installed in the time and strike trains. Upon reassembly, the time train ran great but the gathering pallets were missing the count wheel. I thought the problem was too much back and forth play on the wheel with the gathering pallets. Based on an earlier post, I tore the movement down again to put a shim on the opposite pivot to keep the shaft from backing away from the count wheel. This is something I have never had to do before.

In this process, I discovered that the movement was binding over the second wheel. I can assemble the plates with any combination of wheels and the movement is very free with the exception of the wheel in question - the first wheel in the strike train after the spring. With just this wheel installed, the plates have to be forced together which binds this wheel. I am guessing that the flex in the plates is what is causing the gathering pallets to miss the count wheel.

I did not put bushings into either side of this wheel and this is something that I have not seen before.

The movement is stamped 11 22. The clock would not run at all before repair. I did not verify whether or not the strike train was running before taking the clock apart. The time train now runs perfectly even without lubrication. Lesson #1

Does anyone have any idea what is going on?

A video clip of the problem is here: Ingraham 11-22 1st Wheel.mov

Any and all feedback is appreciated.

 

[howtorepairpendulumclocks]

does the count wheel go on the outside of the plate?

 

[rsnead]

does the count wheel go on the outside of the plate?

THANKS for the fast reply.

No. The count wheel is on the inside of the plates as can be seen from the video. Based on the earlier thread. ( https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/ingraham-count-wheel-doesnt-always-turn.160538/ ) I verified that the count wheel is secure and correct side up, i.e. increasing the number of spaces as it is turned.

 

[bikerclockguy]

Having to force the plates together and then having the wheel bind when it’s installed by itself makes me wonder if the wheel is original to the clock. It could be someone broke a pivot or something on the original wheel and scavenged one from another movement to try to make it work. Just a guess, but I haven’t encountered that particular problem before.

 

[roughbarked]

Having to force the plates together and then having the wheel bind when it’s installed by itself makes me wonder if the wheel is original to the clock. It could be someone broke a pivot or something on the original wheel and scavenged one from another movement to try to make it work. Just a guess, but I haven’t encountered that particular problem before.

It couldn't be the time train 2nd wheel could it? I seem to recall that in many such clocks these wheels are slightly different in that the strike train wheel will work in the time train but the time train wheel will not work in the strike side?

 

[R. Croswell]

It couldn't be the time train 2nd wheel could it? I seem to recall that in many such clocks these wheels are slightly different in that the strike train wheel will work in the time train but the time train wheel will not work in the strike side?

I believe that is correct. The time and strike 2nd wheels look the same but they don't interchange (one is a bit longer).

RC

 

[Micam100]

I agree with Roughbarked. Did you remove the count wheel from its arbor? it looks like the count wheel can’t go any further on that arbor…it’s up against the shoulder.

Michael

 

[rsnead]

RC is right! THANK YOU!

I knew the answer was going to be simple and make me want to kick myself.

The second wheels of the time and strike trains look exactly alike but they are not. The strike side is shorter but you can't tell the difference until you put the wheels into the plates. In hindsight, this makes sense since the mount for the count wheel is on the inside of the plates. howtorepairpendulumclocks was on the right track when he asked whether or not the count wheel was on the inside of the plates.

THANKS to everyone that contributed. Several lessons are learned.

#1 - verify whether or not the strike train on a clock that will not run BEFORE you tear it down.

#2 Verify that you have the #2 wheels on the correct sides before fully reassembling the movement if they look alike

Thanks again

 

[R. Croswell]

It isn't just second wheels that can trick one up. Main wheels are often identical except some wind to the left and some to the right and can be easily mixed up. Chime clocks have two fans and the pinions of both look identical but are frequently not identical. I keep a spool of insulated #24 solid electrical wire. I tie a small piece around the spoke of the time side main wheel, main spring, and second wheel. The other parts of a time/strike movement are usually identifiable because the strike parts typically have pins, cams, or other features unique to strike trains.

RC

 

[JimmyOz]

A good idea when repairing any movement is to keep the trains apart by putting them in different plastic containers that will fit in the US, then wash, dry and polish each container separately.

 

[roughbarked]

I've always tied them on a separate wire. Though in many clocks that isn't necessary, it simply keeps everything organised so that at least some time wasting errors are eliminated.

 

[shutterbug]

I have about five lengths of key chain, maybe 8 to 10 inches long with clasps. I put the gears from each train on a different chain and hook it so it won't come apart. Everything goes into the US together, and the chains have lasted many years with no sign of weakening from repeated exposure to ammonia. Then I do the pivot polishing on the gears from one chain at a time, bush the same way. It makes assembly without mixing things up very easy.