Pillar plate/setting mechanism ID

[Greg Frauenhoff]

Does this pillar plate, setting mechanism, etc., look like something you might have seen? It's 18s. If you have some suggestions for something like it let me know. Thanks in advance.

 

[Appa69]

You're quite sure this is an American movement?

 

[roughbarked]

I did find that at least one of the better jeweled American watches had a rocker bar.
Example, year: signature; shock device
1902: 1690541, Hampden-Logo, Canton O., Wm.McKinley.

It appears that some Elgins did as well as Waltham. Though I've never seen one decorated like that.

 

[4thdimension]

That’s a weird one all right. Key set, but is it a hunter? Seems like there are some
American attributes but what it is I couldn’t say. Marion had rocker bars but they didn’t look much like that.. -Cort. p.s.- 3000th post and counting

 

[Greg Frauenhoff]

Thanks for the replies.

I'm quite sure it's American.

Hunter.

Stem-wind, lever set, but has key set style cannon pinion as well.

I'm holding back on a full description for a while because I don't want to bias anyone's opinion. Just looking for the "naked truth".

There is no number visible on the pillar plate side shown in picture. I haven't had the watch completely apart to see if there is one on the other side. Interestingly, on the edge of the pillar plate near the hole for the winding arbor is the number 77.

 

[Greg Frauenhoff]

The shape of the click spring (see end where screw is) is rather similar to a spring seen on this early stem-wind Cornell. But nothing else about the setting mechanism is like it (Photo courtesy Jones-Horan). Does anyone have other stem-wind Cornell's that they can compare it to?

 

[Greg Frauenhoff]

I've seen a few watches with the minute wheel held in place with a screw, but can't recall off the top of my head which ones.

 

[Greg Frauenhoff]

Looking at a snippet of the other side, the regulator index is similar to, but not identical, to that seen on some early high grade Rockfords:

 

[Bila]

Have you a complete picture of the back-plate of the watch in question Greg?

 

[Jerry Treiman]

It seems to have some characteristics of a U.S. Watch Co. (Marion) movement.

 

[roughbarked]

It is in such threads that I realise how little I know about American watches.
I do mean that I have never seen most of what I see in the American watch section.

 

[Greg Frauenhoff]

Have you a complete picture of the back-plate of the watch in question Greg?

Bila,

Will post picture of other side soon.

Greg

 

[Greg Frauenhoff]

It seems to have some characteristics of a U.S. Watch Co. (Marion) movement.

Jerry,

That's a good idea. I will check the Muir/Krauss book for pictures to compare with.

Greg

 

[Nathan Moore]

Does this pillar plate, setting mechanism, etc., look like something you might have seen? It's 18s. If you have some suggestions for something like it let me know. Thanks in advance.

View attachment 765592

I am not necessarily suggesting this is the proper attribution - just an observation. The setting mechanism is similar to a patent issued to Marshall N. Frederick on July 14, 1868 (including the screw to retain the minute wheel). This patent was subsequently assigned to Charles Moseley, superintendent of the Elgin factory at the time.

Patent Watch Stem Wind & Set by Marshall N. Frederick Issued Jul 14, 1868

Horology Patents - Patent Watch Stem Wind & Set by Marshall N. Frederick Issued Jul 14, 1868

pocketwatchdatabase.com

 

[Greg Frauenhoff]

Marion had a bunch of different setting mechanisms (no wonder they were a financial failure). Here's one that is reasonably close. Notice also that the minute wheel is held in place with a screw. United States Watch Co. grade mvt #206168, Muir & Kraus Marion book, page 98.

 

[Greg Frauenhoff]

I am not necessarily suggesting this is the proper attribution - just an observation. The setting mechanism is similar to a patent issued to Marshall N. Frederick on July 14, 1868 (including the screw to retain the minute wheel). This patent was subsequently assigned to Charles Moseley, superintendent of the Elgin factory at the time.

Patent Watch Stem Wind & Set by Marshall N. Frederick Issued Jul 14, 1868

Horology Patents - Patent Watch Stem Wind & Set by Marshall N. Frederick Issued Jul 14, 1868

pocketwatchdatabase.com

Nathan,

I'll check it out.

Thanks,

Greg

 

[Greg Frauenhoff]

The raised portion and cut outs of such on the pillar plate are also similar to Marion, except for the enlarged cutout for the click spring on the latter. But, the subject watch has a right angle escapement rather than a straight line as seen on the Marion (see location of jewels in pillar plate).

 

[Greg Frauenhoff]

So far, a click spring similar to Cornell, a regulator index similar to Rockford, and a pillar plate design and setting mechanism with similarities to Marion. Will post another pic soon.

 

[Greg Frauenhoff]

View of the mvt. I have a good opinion of what it's very similar too. Do you?

 

[Bryan Eyring]

Looks like a Cornell that's been finished by Rockford - no dial?

 

[Nathan Moore]

View of the mvt. I have a good opinion of what it's very similar too. Do you?

View attachment 765657

Looks like the Newark/Cornell model. Any possibility for disassembly to inspect the design of the patent pinion?

 

[Greg Frauenhoff]

I agree, this side looks very much like Cornell (though not identical, e. g. see the location of the hairspring stud). But the pillar plate side looks very much like Marion (unless someone can post a picture of a stem-wind Cornell pillar plate that is similar).

I hesitate to take it apart further to inspect the pinion feature.

It has a dial that is almost certainly not the first one for the mvt, but there are reasons to think it is an "original replacement". The holes for the dial feet are at approx. 18.5, 36.2 and 54.0 min. Dial feet for Cornell are at approx. 16.5, 36.5 and 54.0 min. For Marion they are at approx. 18.5, 36.5 and 53.3 min. So, given the pillar plate/stem winding mechanism is more similar to Marion than Cornell (by a wide margin) this may not be a surprise. More on the dial later.

 

[Greg Frauenhoff]

The upper end of the barrel arbor has a polished metal cap over it, but I'm not sure if there is a jewel (hole or cap) beneath or not. I removed the barrel bridge but there was no hole jewel visible on the underside. There could be a hole jewel set into the metal cap somehow, but this will require further inspection. The upper end of the barrel arbor is round (as opposed to square like on a key wind).

Numbers wise, the pillar plate has only "77" on the edge, and there are no numbers on either the balance or barrel bridges, which suggests (to me) that it was not an in process factory piece by Cornell, Marion or other firm.

 

[Bila]

A very interesting piece Greg, I agree that it is more like a USWCo or Newark movement, although the position of the balance cock to the plate pillar is a little off for a USWCo, and that positioning is more like a Newark produced movement as is the right-angle lever. The only thing Rockford is possibly the Reg-scale and the engraving on the Barrel-bridge (not the bridge itself), I wonder if it is a Horological School Student's creation?

 

[Greg Frauenhoff]

Bila,

In my opinion, this piece, which might be patterned on a combination of Cornell and Marion, probably dates to the mid 1870s or so and, thus, cannot be a student's horological creation. The first US horological school (Parsons) didn't get started until 1886. The overall finish also looks too good for a student and the setting mechanism, which a student is unlikely to have designed anew as a graduation project, has not been found (so far) on another American make (I'd still like to see a late Cornell stem-wind mechanism since the possibility exists that such might be similar).

The jewelling is superb, as is the barrel arbor cap and engraving.

I've intentionally obscured some of the lettering so as not to have the name bias what people might think. An employee watch is a possibility, but being a combination of ideas from two different companies suggests that it is not simply a specially finished Cornell or Marion ebauche. If it were, it would be one or the other and not a bit of both. (It can't possibly have started as a Marion but the pillar plate side does have more Marion than Cornell characteristics)

Thanks for you thoughts. I will share all soon.

Greg

 

[Bila]

I will share all soon.

I look forward to it

 

[Bila]

If you ever take it apart Greg I would like to see the Pallet fork, also the train wheels with their dimensions, as that would give me a much better idea of origin

 

[Greg Frauenhoff]

I don't have the watch handy (it's at the bank) to get a good clear picture of the mvt, but here is what all is marked on the plates/bridges:

Charles C. Hinckley, Hartford, Conn., 20 Ruby Jewels, Patent Pinion, Adjusted, No. 4

Starting with who was Hinckley, below is some biographical info on him (all the info has period references supporting it...I can post such if you don't want to take my word for anything).

Jan 1, 1854, et al.: Born in Winsted, Conn. Reared and educated in Hartford, Conn.. Father was George W. Hinckley who, in 1883, was a pattern maker for the Aurora Watch Co.
Work for Colt's Armory in Hartford, went to sea from Marblehead, Mass., for 6 months, then in 1868 became employed by E. Howard & Co. of Boston.

Remained with Howard for 4 years then went to Waltham Watch Co. for about 1 year.

Left Waltham for United States Watch Co. at Marion

Left Marion and went to New York Watch Co.

1872: went to Grand Crossing, Illinois, to work for Cornell

Dec. 1874: Left Cornell to help start Rockford as foreman of the jewelling department.

Apr. 1882: Hinckley leaves Rockford for Springfield (Illinois Watch Co.)

Nov. 1882: "Mr. Charles Hinckley has just completed three models of our sixteen-size watch" (Illinois Watch Co.)

While still in Springfield he made the model of the Aurora watch.

June 1883: He comes to Aurora as one of the chief mechanical men for the new Aurora Watch Co. Becomes foreman of the jewelling and motion departments.

Feb 1884: Hinckley has just completed two pump center lathes for the jewelling department (Aurora Watch Co.)

Jan 1886: Leaves Aurora to go into business for himself.

Aug 1886, 1888, et al.: C. C. Hinckley & Co. (Aurora, Illinois), manufacturers of watchmaker's tools, etc.. Model work is made a specialty

I have more, but the above should show that Hinckley was more than just a watch factory worker. He designed/made models of new movements. He worked for all three of the companies that the watch under consideration has attributes of.

The jewelling: 20 ruby jewels. 15 in the usual places, cap jewels for the pallet and escape pivots. I'm guessing that the 20th jewel is associated with the upper end of the barrel arbor, but I haven't removed the polished metal cap on the barrel bridge to look for such underneath. A few 20 jewel Cornell mvts have been reported and the 20th jewel looks to be assoc. with the barrel arbor, but I have not had one to inspect personally.

Marked "No. 4" certainly suggests that Hinckley made more than one watch.

 

[4thdimension]

Zounds! What a cool find! Great history too.—Cort

 

[Bila]

KInd of explains a lot Greg regarding the design features of your watch, I have been collecting a list of Rockford Watch Co employee's during my research forays and have come across your man before. Some of the news periodicals of the day had his name mis-spelt as a "Charles C. Huckley"

 

[roughbarked]

As I've said before. The members here constantly delight me with the amount of quality research behind their posts.