Pillar and Scroll

Discussion in 'Wood Movement Clocks' started by Jeremy Woodoff, Jun 27, 2009.

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  1. Jeremy Woodoff

    Jeremy Woodoff Registered User
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    I just won this at an on-line auction for $100. There was just the one picture, and the description was as follows:

    Clock w/ Portrait on Front
    Marked Eli Terry & Sons as found


    So, what do you think?
     

    Attached Files:

  2. Steven Thornberry

    Steven Thornberry User Administrator
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    Nice!!!!!!!! :Party::clap::thumb: I think replacement finials for P&S alone are $100.00. Original movement? I've seen a few offered before with Ingrahams et al.
     
  3. Chris Radano

    Chris Radano Registered User

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    That case looks nice. You can repair the bottom glass crack, and the veneer looks nice. The dial numbers may have been strengthened, but does not look bad from here. I have seen a couple of pillar + scrolls around these parts that have later brass 8-day Connecticut movements. You have to figure if this was the case for this clock, even the case should be worth $100. Hopefully you recieve the clock is good condition.
     
  4. DBPhelps

    DBPhelps Registered User

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    Jeremy, you seem to find all the deals! Looks to have the basics for a nice addition to your collection. Good for you.:Party:

    D
     
  5. Jeremy Woodoff

    Jeremy Woodoff Registered User
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    This is how it looks to me:

    The scrolls and feet appear unbroken. The veneer seems to be all there. The lower glass looks possibly original and without paint loss, though it has a crack. The dial is a later type, with the minute marks on the outside of the chapter ring, but this type is not unknown on pillar and scrolls. There appear to be no extra winding holes, and the two arbors are visible. The hands look original. The finials look good, though I haven't researched what the original finials would have looked like. The label must be present, as that would be the only way the seller could have identified the maker. Eli Terry & Sons was in business, I believe, from 1823-31. Given the dial type and the flat rather than molded base (above the feet), it's probably closer to 1831 than 1823.

    I'll report on what it actually is when I see it in person. In the meantime, more thoughts are welcomed.
     
  6. laprade

    laprade Registered User

    Sep 10, 2008
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    Jeremy

    Over here in Europe, we rarely get to handle any of the really nice US clocks. When you look at the amazing variety of US clocks, you realize that European clocks are quite boring and the design varieties very limited.

    Even if your clock will never work, it is an amazing bargain. As a piece of decorative furniture / art it will always please the eye.

    If you were to buy the picture as a standard picture in a frame, you would probably pay more!

    It is a lovely clock, no doubt about it.

    laprade
     
  7. Jeremy Woodoff

    Jeremy Woodoff Registered User
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    The pillar and scroll arrived yesterday. It was well-packed by UPS, with 2” of Styrofoam lining the inside of the box, bubble wrap around the clock, and peanuts filling in the spaces. Unfortunately, despite this, both scroll tips broke. One had been previously broken but broke in a new spot. I’m not sure what more could have been done, although I wish I hadn’t suggested removing the finials; they might have protected the scrolls. IMG_3421.jpg IMG_3422.jpg

    Actually, I’m surprised any of these clocks has survived at all. The scrolls are made of mahogany veneer on pine. The pine is oriented with horizontal grain, making the scroll ends very weak. The legs are incredibly attenuated. When the door is open, the clock almost falls over on its own; a slight bump or breeze would do it.

    Other than the broken scroll tips, the case seems basically intact.
    IMG_3445.jpg
    The left chimney holding the finial looks replaced, and the right side return is replaced with solid mahogany. The left return looks original and is mahogany veneer on pine. One of the legs was broken and repaired (with the original leg).
    IMG_3446.jpg
    The horizontal veneer strip on the door separating the upper and lower glasses is replaced with a piece of veneer with the grain running horizontally (it should be vertical).
    IMG_3447.jpg
    The ivory keyhole escutcheon is missing. Everything else looks original, including the case back and most of the glue blocks.
    IMG_3434.jpg IMG_3433.jpg
    The finish looks original, but it has probably been cleaned up in the past. There is no crazing, just some chips and bumps here and there.

    The glasses are both old and wavy, but the upper glass has no putty (it is held in with glazing points). The lower glass has a crack and the putty has been replaced (not well). Also, as you can see in one of the photos, the lower left part of this glass is not flush against the door frame. I don’t know if there was any reason it was set this way except carelessness. It causes the plane of the glass to be slightly broken at the break joint between the pieces. I’ll have to decide whether to remove the putty, which is slightly soft, and reset/re-putty this glass.
    IMG_3439.JPG IMG_3438.jpg IMG_3450.JPG

    See next post for continuation.
     
  8. Jeremy Woodoff

    Jeremy Woodoff Registered User
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    Other than the crack, the tablet is perfect—exactly the right style and beautifully painted. Whether it is original I do not know. (I’m going to post this part on the glass forum for comments.)
    IMG_3426.jpg

    The dial looks original and the numbers are not over-painted. Other than slight wear to the artwork from cleaning, it is perfect.
    IMG_3442.jpg IMG_3443.jpg

    The top part of the dial back has an unusual drawing in red of what looks like a dragon. It is well done but rather minimalist. You can see this if you enlarge the photo. The wood is thinner than that on other wood dials I have seen, but there is no warping.
    IMG_3431.jpg

    The label is 100% intact. There is no printer’s name.
    IMG_3424.jpg

    The finials are solid, cast brass. They are the proper style and could be original. The bell is old. There are a few extra holes under the bell. The hands look original, though they have both had solder repairs and they are painted black.
    IMG_3430.JPG


    The movement is a type 5.112, made by Jeromes and Darrow. This is not expected in an Eli Terry & Sons clock, though according to Snowden Taylor’s wood movement guide Samuel Terry & Co. and Eli Terry Jr. are known to have used this movement. The pin holes in the case rails and the movement plates align and there are no extra holes. The back plate fits into a cut-out in the case back and is protected with a sheet of tin that is attached with old brads. This allows the case to be very slender. The movement has a new verge and probably a new escape wheel, and a new piece of brass on the block under the countwheel. The wood wheels and arbors seem to have all their teeth and pinion leaves, though there may have been repairs in the past.
    IMG_3423.jpg IMG_3441.jpg IMG_3440.jpg IMG_3437.JPG


    Ironically, I had spent years looking for a short-drop 5.112 movement for a Jeromes & Darrow carved short-case clock. I finally found one, for a lot more than I paid for this entire pillar and scroll clock. Opinions on whether the movement in this clock could be original would be appreciated.
     
  9. carloclock

    carloclock Registered User

    Jul 15, 2009
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    My apologies if my first posting is polemical, but I totally do not agree with laprade.
    To state European clocks design are of limited varieties is a bit rash. Should you visit a Swiss horological flea market you can face with so many different clocks you neither may figure out. I mean different mouvement designs, not cases.

    To the contrary, browsing some American manufacturers clocks catalogues, one can see that every maker made just few, always the same, designs... IMHO :)

    Cordialità.
    Carlo
     
  10. laprade

    laprade Registered User

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    #10 laprade, Jul 15, 2009
    Last edited: Jul 15, 2009
    carloclock,

    I phrased it badly. I was referring to the English clocks, and and what was on offer in England, and shouldn't have said European. Having said that, the input from other European countries into the UK market, seemed to be limited to very standard German and French imports.

    The variety of American clocks is quite enormous, aside from the more mundane late varieties, which seemed to be competing with the German and French imports.

    When you compare what was on offer from individual country's makers and what was on offer in the US, the difference is quite amazing. Admittedly, the movements in the European clocks are generally of better quality, but as to variety of design, the US wins hands down. If you group all of Europe together, then maybe, the argument is a little thin, but weighed individually with each country, the US has the edge.

    Now that you have waved your flag, any chance of some Italian clocks? I have read about the "Tower Wardens Alarums" and the famous De Dondi clock, and it was an Italian who invented the pendulum: so the heritage is there.
    They are rarely seen anywhere outside Italy. In all the years that I dealt in clocks, I have never come across one from Italy.

    Incidentally, I often play Monteverdi and songs from "Bella Ciao" on my radio program here in France, and one of my favourite meals is Osso buco. (bad spelling?)

    laprade
     
  11. Steven Thornberry

    Steven Thornberry User Administrator
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    Carlo:

    Thanks for your input. I'm sure many will disagree. Sounds like a case of who did what to whom. In fact, I believe that both American and European clock makers were clever and inventive. That is a topic for a different thread, though I fear it could turn contentious.

    But, let's not digress from the main topic, which is Jeremy's serendipitous find, the nice pillar and scroll. Not without the flaws Jeremy has pointed out, it is still eminently restorable and I'm sure he will treasure it. Amazing what 100 bucks can get you.
     
  12. Ralph

    Ralph Registered User
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    Jeremy,

    The finials are surely replacements. Originals are two piece, brazed together . They are hollow and would likely have a wood peg shoved into the bottom for inserting into the plinth hole.

    The glass not laying flat against the frame is common and I would not try to alter it. Glass in those days was not always flat. I have had a number of clocks with glass bowed away from the frame

    Ralph
     
  13. laprade

    laprade Registered User

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    Jeremy,

    I completely forgot to look down the thread, and missed your unpacking.

    brilliant find, wonderful! congrats!

    Laprade
     
  14. Chris Radano

    Chris Radano Registered User

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    The crack in the bottom tablet is repairable (see Cummens banjo thread). I'm sure you knew that. Great clock!
     
  15. Bob Baxter

    Bob Baxter Registered User

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    Jeremy,
    If you are going to put the effort into restoring the case, I have several small pieces of pre-ban elephant ivory that would work for the keyhole. I'd be happy to share...let me know.
     
  16. Jeremy Woodoff

    Jeremy Woodoff Registered User
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    Bob,

    Thanks so much for your offer. As it happens, I was able to salvage a bunch of ivory piano keys a while ago, and still have a large supply. I've already started making the keyhole escutcheon.

    Ralph,

    I looked closely at the finials and I don't see any seams, so I guess they are replacements. They do seem to be old.
     
  17. RJSoftware

    RJSoftware Registered User

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    Very nice find Jeremey. (Excellent as Mr.Burns would say)

    Back before our current economic situation I had been scoping out identicle Eli Terry many times.

    Had it on my list of desirables but everyone that I tried for got jacked way up. Wayyyy up...! Must be a real good time to buy clocks.

    Me, I like it the way it is, you know... I always hesitate to alter/replace. Probability can change like opinions.

    Accepting is part of the fun too.!

    Besides don't think you'll find original replacement parts any time real soon.

    Took me near 4 years of waiting for my original Gilbert Talledaga pendulum (exactly as Tran's book shows) before I landed it. Had to buy a whole other clock just to get that pendulum.

    I mean I was happy about it, just now I got another Talledaga without the original pendulum. What's the situation called a conundrum?

    Can't bring myself to murder a clock for parts.

    RJ
     

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