Phonetic blunder

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by RJSoftware, Jun 14, 2010.

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  1. RJSoftware

    RJSoftware Registered User

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    :eek:

    What you say..!

    Ok, let me explain.

    I was at the flea market and spotted a clock. I was checking the clock out for maker name when I met another horological enthusiast.

    We where chattin and he says, I think it's a Junghans, and he said it phonetically like this:

    Young - hans.

    Anyway, I immediatley felt embarrassed recalling how many times I had said it the way it's spelled would imply. I must had been doing this for years.

    To avoid any future faux pas are there any others you know of?

    RJ
     
  2. Jeremy Woodoff

    Jeremy Woodoff Registered User
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    Since I rarely hear anyone speak horology, there are several names and terms I know only from the way I say them to myself:

    Kroeber
    Stoelklok
    foliot
    Huygens
    Pequegnat
    Kienzle
     
  3. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    #3 harold bain, Jun 14, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2010
    Here's a couple more that are often mispronounced:
    Hermle: Herm elee
    Herschede: Hersch eedee
     
  4. Jay

    Jay Registered User
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    Mauthe
    Badische

    2 more I can think of at the moment
     
  5. Mike Phelan

    Mike Phelan Registered User

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    As I've only heard of Herschede when I came on this forum, I'm assuming it's pronounced "Her-sheed" - is that right?

    As for Pequegnat, I've no idea, but assume it's the usual French pronunciation. Puh-kay-na: anywhere near?

    As Jeremy says, I never actually meet any other clock folk, so my pronunciations are probably wrong:
    Foliot, Brocot and Jacot without pronouncing the final "t".
    Detent = Dee-tent
    Contrate = Con-trate

    Interesting!
     
  6. Robert Gary

    Robert Gary Member, NAWCC Board of Directors
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    Mike:

    As Harold points out: Herschede: Her-scheedee

    I have been told: Junghans: yueng-hahns (long u)

    RobertG
     
  7. bangster

    bangster Super Moderator
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    Here's my take on the ones mentioned so far. I'm prepared to be corrected by them what know better.

    Junghans = Yoong hahnss
    Kroeber = Kreh ber
    Stoelklok = Shtool klok
    foliot = foli oh
    Huygens = Hee genz (hard G)
    Pequegnat = Pe ke nyah
    Kienzle = Keenz leh
    Hermle = Herm lee
    Herschede: Hersh eed (it's American so I don't sound final e)
    Mauthe = Mau tuh
    Badische = Bad ish eh
    also,
    Kieninger = Keen ing ger (hard G)

    Wery interesting thread. :Party:
     
  8. doug sinclair

    doug sinclair Registered User
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    Many Canucks pronounce Pequegnat as peg-n-awe.
     
  9. Thyme

    Thyme Registered Users

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    That's pretty close. In French the "q" would sound a bit harder, like a "k" - "peh-ken-awe".

    With German terms, with those that that end in "e", the final e is usually pronounced, but more as "uh" , not as "ee". For example Porsche is correctly pronounced as "Por-shuh".
     
  10. Mike Phelan

    Mike Phelan Registered User

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    My apologies - thought Harold's list was the misses! :(
     
  11. laprade

    laprade Registered Users

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    Irish, but live in Laprade, 16390, France, (70 mil
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    en français;
    Foliot, =folio, but not folio, as in English. You start to pronounce the "t" but change your mind. This applies to most french words, but not all, e.g south =sud = sud, but with a sharp "u". Difficult to explain. not as the English "oo"

    Brocot=broco

    this business of changing your mind, gives the last letter a strange end sound, slightly clipped.

    For example en français = <o(n) fransay> you almost pronounce the "n" in "on" , this gives the "o" a funny clip.


    Detent = De-to(n)
    Contrate = Con-trate, the french "a" is a long one, more like the English "ah" as opposed to the "ay"

    when there is an "e" at the end of a word, the second last letter is pronounced. contrate has a definite "t" at the end.

    Bangster is right about "Pequegnat = Pe ke nyah"

    the french "gn" as in "cognac" is pronounced as "nya"
     
  12. Scottie-TX

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    My take on BONG's list: I list only our differences.
    yoong ens - I don't pronounce the "h"
    stale clock "oe" in stoel sounds same as "oe" in Kroeber
    her shady - I'm certain that's incorrect
    mouth a
    bod ish I don't pronounce the "e" but probably should
    kyninger "y" pronounced "eye", not like "ee" If you spell it wrong you'll proonounce it wrong.
    Howzabout another:
    VULLIAMY
     
  13. bangster

    bangster Super Moderator
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    #13 bangster, Jun 14, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2010
    Posted too quick.
     
  14. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
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    I believe LAB pronounces, "vulliamy" , vuhl yamee. Vuhl pronounced like "gull".
     
  15. bangster

    bangster Super Moderator
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    #15 bangster, Jun 14, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2010
    Some yes, some no.
    "stale clock" nope. Dutch "oe" is oo, unlike German.
    Dunno about "her shady"
    Mau TUH...in my part of Arkansas, German "th" comes out like English "t"
    KEE ninger, dammit! :Party:
    kieninger.jpg
    and Vull eye am ee

    Aside from that, you pass, Tex. Good boy.

    bangster
     
  16. Jay

    Jay Registered User
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    Bangs list on target--

    bang sturh ?:Party:
     
  17. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    nope, I think it's Bang steer?
    Or maybe Bang stair?
     
  18. bangster

    bangster Super Moderator
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    Carillon
    Japy
    Roulant
    Biedermeier
     
  19. Robert Gary

    Robert Gary Member, NAWCC Board of Directors
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    Bangster:

    Here is a link to a youtube video of a film originally made by the Herschede Clock Company, featuring Mr. Herschede. Let it play for a minute or two and Mr. Herschede introduces himself.

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-LHZIvb2_rw

    RobertG
     
  20. bangster

    bangster Super Moderator
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    Good 'nuf. It's HER sheh dee. Now we know.
     
  21. Thyme

    Thyme Registered Users

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    Frank Herschede was born on July 30, 1857 in Cincinnati, Ohio. That makes him an American. Americans pronounce (and mispronounce) words at their pleasure, and they can pronounce their own names any way they please, expecting others to follow suit with what they wish to be called.

    There is a town in Maine, not far from Canade called Calais. In French (as in the French city of that name) it is pronounced "callay". But the locals that live in Maine's Calais pronounce the name of their town as "callas" (or callous?). :D
     
  22. leeinv66

    leeinv66 Super Moderator
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    Like others here have, I never talk horology directly to anyone, so I am finding this thread very interesting indeed. But now I am worried, as I am sure if I ever do get the chance to talk to someone of knowledge, they will think I am talking a different language:) Not that there is anything new in that:D
     
  23. harold bain

    harold bain Registered User
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    Thyme, we pronounce Canade CANADUH:D
    except in Quebec.
     
  24. Mike Phelan

    Mike Phelan Registered User

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    Interesting - I always thought, perhaps wrongly, that these were English words as they originated from centuries ago.

    I realise that what we call English is a mixture of French and other languages, but the original French derived words like garage and mayonnaise now have anglicised pronunciation; as have French place names like Paris and Reims.
    J'ai besoin d'un maintenant! :eek:
     
  25. laprade

    laprade Registered Users

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    Irish, but live in Laprade, 16390, France, (70 mil
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    Mike, Riems is a real hard one. My copine gets furious when I try to pronounce it!

    Scottie; many languages seem to have a problem with twin "L"s. The Welsh are the worst, to them LL is cl. Llangollen in North wales is=Clangothlen. Then the Spanish have a problem with "paella". In French it depends what goes with the LLs. Pillac= peeack. Ville (town) = veel. My copine is not here today, so I can't ask her for an explanation.

    Talking of spelling, not my forté as Thyme will report; how does one get the spell checker, available on the board, to correct the "i" to "I".
     
  26. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    #26 rmarkowitz1_cee4a1, Jun 15, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 15, 2010
    This has been a rather interesting thread!!

    Especially when I first started collecting clocks and antiques, I wished for a book that provided phonetic spellings of the most widely accepted pronounciations of names and terms. There wasn't any. I got out there, talked to people, elliciting many bemused smiles as I misprounced things, but I learned.

    Some of this is a natural process of the learning curve. Some of it is a casuality of how we now interact and exchange information. Very little is verbal or in person. That's very true of the world of antiques and clocks in general. We sit alone tapping away at our computers, transfixed by the images on glowing screen.

    RM
     
  27. laprade

    laprade Registered Users

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    RM, a true philosopher, are you a product of a Steiner school?

    The French do have a sense of humour. There is a town by the name of Eu, (uh) and when the mayor of that town is asked who he is, he has to reply;
    je suis le maire d'u

    which is phonetically the same as

    Je suis le merde.

    Harold; the french spoken in Quebec is supposed to be that of the Charente(department 16). They have a habit of pronouncing more than the standard French, a habit carried on from "Occitan", or "Langue a d'oc", which was spoken in southern France until the likes of Simon De Montfort and friends quashed the Cathars, and the "langue d'oil", of the Isle de France, was forced on them. The remnant of the "langue a d'Oc", is spoken here in the Charente and the Dordogne etc, in the form of patois. Parisiens constantly complain that they cannot understand the market traders and locals. (Just as well)
     
  28. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    No, the School of Hard Knocks.

    RM
     
  29. Kevin W.

    Kevin W. Registered User

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    The French spoken is Quebec is Quebecois.
    It is a mixture of French and English words.
    The true French language taught in schools here is Parisian , which is spoken in France.
     
    Jaap likes this.
  30. Thyme

    Thyme Registered Users

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    Ah, je comprends tres bien. :clap:

    And I believe it, as some things are too strange to be untrue. :D

    Of course, he could pause a bit between saying maire... and d'u. ;)
     
  31. Mike Phelan

    Mike Phelan Registered User

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    Our French master at school was a Welshman, and his name was Gareth Prytherch. That itself was almost impossible to pronounce!
    He was an excellent teacher.

    I always remember that his "Reims" was something like "Rance" with a nasal "an".
     
  32. bangster

    bangster Super Moderator
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    It occurs to me that I may have been a sanctimonious creep a few posts back, for which I humbly beg pardon. Occasionally my true character manages to sneak out.

    Dang! I try to hide it. :mad:

    bangsteur
     
  33. shutterbug

    shutterbug Super Moderator
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    Hmmm. I didn't notice anything real creepy, but it does occur to me that "sanctimonious creep" would be a great user name :D
     
  34. Scottie-TX

    Scottie-TX Registered User
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    I've alwys thot you were a creep, but sankatamonies never crossed my mind.
    So I guess now you're a speshul sorta creep.
    Hmmmph. Now th' creep even 'as a title! SHEESH.
     
  35. RJSoftware

    RJSoftware Registered User

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    Uh-oh, sounds like some inside joke going on here. Hope ya'll keepin it civil

    Well, back on topic.

    This has definitely been a learning experience for me. I especially like knowing that I am not the only one. :p

    I wonder now about some of the parts or repair terms as well.

    One I can think of right off the bat is bergeon as in a bergeon hairspring.

    I suppose it's

    Ber jee on

    RJ
     
  36. Jeremy Woodoff

    Jeremy Woodoff Registered User
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    That's close, I think, but the French pronunciation would be "bayrjon" with a nasal "n," and both syllables equally stressed.
     
  37. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
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    #37 eskmill, Jun 16, 2010
    Last edited: Jun 16, 2010
    Just yesterday, rmarkowitz1_cee4a1, remarked, "I wished for a book that has all the horological pronunciations."

    There is such a pronunciary.

    "The Clock & Watch Pronunciary" byMalcolm C. Gerschler. "A complete guide to present-day American-English pronunciation of horological words and phrases.
    ISBN 0-0609628-2-4

    The style used by Gerschler is the same as in the NBC Handbook of Pronunciation and the British Broadcasting company's Pronunciing Dictionary of British Names. For example, the word, Horlogist is respelled haw RAH luh just.

    I keep my copy at hand, it's been invaluable to me; and at every mart, I always look for used copies for my blundering friends.
     
  38. bangster

    bangster Super Moderator
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    That's how they pronounce "Riems"?:confused::confused:
     
  39. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    Thanks for the information. Will try to find a "kah-pee".

    RM
     
  40. laprade

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    Bang! pay attention!

    it is RJ and Jeremy that have problems with Bergeon, Mike is the one who can't get his lips round Riems

    Bergeon, would start like Bergerac, (as in Cyrano and Roxanne).

    I have just spoken to my copine and she says that the "ber" is almost like "bare" with a strong "r", the second syllable is a cross between "john" and "juhn". Because there is no "e" after the "n", the "n" is swallowed before you pronounce it.

    The whole business of the French clipped endings is very difficult for the English language speaker to grasp.
     
  41. eskmill

    eskmill Registered User
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    Per my "Americanische" authority, Gerschler in his CLOCK & WATCH PRONUNCIARY", the tool suppler name, Bergeon is said in US English as BEAR juhn or alternately as BURR gee on. :confused:
     
  42. dutch

    dutch Registered User
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    Way to go Robert. Now if we can just locate a video with Mr. Junghans, Mr. Huygens etc. we could put this to rest.
     
  43. Jay

    Jay Registered User
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    Try FORVO on line.....you can hear the words spoken by "native speakers".

    If a word is not found you can request it be added. A very neat site.


    Jay
    -> posts merged by system <-
    Make that Forvo.com a great site.
     
  44. R Phillips

    R Phillips Registered User
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    Well, just my two cents FWIW....
    I was corrected by an old master clockmaker on my pronunciation of Huygens, he said "Hye- Genz".
    Kieninger is "Kee-ning-ger" (ie is 'ee' and ei is 'eye')
    Although I did see the video where the president of the company says "Her-she-dee", I have been corrected by both German and Dutch speaking customers to say "Her-shuh-deh" It's a German name/word, so German pronunciation applies, as also in 'Herm-leh". Just like in the word 'Lampe', which is "Lamp-eh"
    I was at a French watchmaking school, (I'm Anglo) so I always say 'Horologist' with a silent 'H'. A lot of the technical terms stay with me in French, for some reason, I still think of a setting lever spring as a Sautoir, and mainsprings as Ressorts.
    Despite the French origin of the name, the Pequegnat family members I have spoken to pronounce it 'Peg-In-Aw', or 'Peck-In-Aw'.
    Also:
    Carillon: the 'l' s are like a 'y'. Just as in Tourbillon, and the ending is the nasal French without pronouncing the 'n'.
    I'll be at Mike Gainey's Herschede class at the WAO convention, where I'm sure we will discuss this some more.....as in I'll be the only one saying it weird.
     
  45. karlmansson

    karlmansson Registered User

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    If you know the country of origin for the brand, maybe typing the name into Google translates speech synthesis module would give a good idea of how to pronounce the name? I just try my best German impression whenever I say Junghans or Kienzle :). Ah, guten morgen mein herr! Wie gehts?
     
  46. tom427cid

    tom427cid Registered User
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    When people as "What's a Horologist and how do you spell it?" I explain it's spelled without a W. then they understand! lol
    tom
    Sorry I couldn't resist
     

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