Petite Sonnerie Carriage Clock chiming extra Quarter on Hours?

[Incroyable]

Does anyone know why a French Petite Sonnerie carriage clock would chime an extra quarter on the hours randomly?

For example at 4:00 it will strike 4 tones and then an extra quarter. Sometimes when I press repeat a few minutes later the hours will chime normally. The quarter striking is fine.

The French dealer I bought it from says that something which he calls a "virgule" will sometimes tilt when the movement is in operation and cause the quarters to trip when striking the hour. He claims this is something that's very difficult to remedy and will sometimes be an issue on striking carriage clocks.

Anyone have any experience with this? Is it as difficult a fix as the dealer claims?

Here's a photo of the movement for reference.

 

[shutterbug]

If it's striking four times, I think it's by design. Some only strike the hours at the 12 position, other strike four (to count the quarters) followed by the count. More problematic is that it doesn't do that consistently. It looks like an old one. Nice!
Edit: re-reading, I see that it strikes four at 4:00. So maybe a little more about what it's actually doing would help. A video --- even better

 

[Incroyable]

Well at the hours it's supposed to strike one deep tone, tong, and at the quarter one ting-tong.

For example at 4:00 it should strike 4 tongs. At 4:15 it would be one ting-tong, 4:30 two ting-tongs, 4:45 3 ting-tongs.

However it sometimes strikes 4 tongs and one ting-tong at 4:00 randomly. It happens with other hours as well but also at random. If I press the repeat button a few minutes later the hours repeat as they should.

 

[rgmt79]

You show the back of the movement in your photo. Is it possible to see a photo of the front of the movement?

Richard

 

[Incroyable]

You show the back of the movement in your photo. Is it possible to see a photo of the front of the movement?

Richard

I only have the sides of the movement since I don't know how to get the movement out of the case.

I also toggled the Silent switch back and forth to no avail.

 

[Dick Feldman]

If that clock came to me for repair, I would first and foremost take the movement out of the case and set it up on a test stand. The malfunction is on the front of the movement and there is no hope of diagnosing or solving the problem without being able to see that part of the clock movement.
The strike system is a series of things happening. Having an issue on occasion is tougher to trouble shoot than one that happens every cycle. In order to properly satisfy and repair the fault, one would probably have to watch the clock run and wait for it to malfunction. That sounds like a big hassle and it is.
Clock repair is not magic and we are not magicians.
It sounds to me like the clock needs to be put into the hands of a qualified clock repair person.
If it is not worth you doing that, you should get used to the malfunction.
Best,
Dick

 

[Incroyable]

If that clock came to me for repair, I would first and foremost take the movement out of the case and set it up on a test stand. The malfunction is on the front of the movement and there is no hope of diagnosing or solving the problem without being able to see that part of the clock movement.
The strike system is a series of things happening. Having an issue on occasion is tougher to trouble shoot than one that happens every cycle. In order to properly satisfy and repair the fault, one would probably have to watch the clock run and wait for it to malfunction. That sounds like a big hassle and it is.
Clock repair is not magic and we are not magicians.
It sounds to me like the clock needs to be put into the hands of a qualified clock repair person.
If it is not worth you doing that, you should get used to the malfunction.
Best,
Dick

The dealer that I bought it from is actually a French clockmaker who specializes in carriage clocks and he fully serviced this.

He told me this is a very difficult problem to resolve. I did some cursory research and it seems it might be an issue with the surprise piece.

 

[Dick Feldman]

It sounds like the proper solution is in the United States since the seller cannot properly service any warranty.
I am confident you will not find a solution with your posts here.
If you want magic, you will have to go elsewhere.
JMHO.
D

 

[Ralph]

There is a device called a surprise piece that is a like a secondary snail, behind the quarter snail. It advances at the hour and blocks the 1/4 rack from dropping and prevents what you are experieincing.

It is recommended the snail pair be removed, separated, cleaned, kept absolutely dry and reassembled. No oil. It has to operate freely.

You might be able to se it in this image.



Ralph

 

[Incroyable]

There is a device called a surprise piece that is a like a secondary snail, behind the quarter snail. It advances at the hour and blocks the 1/4 rack from dropping and prevents what you are experieincing.

You might be able to se it in this image.



Ralph

View attachment 751078

Yes the dealer told me that some repeater watches also experience issues with the surprise piece.

I found one of your old posts where someone else with a carriage clock also had the same issue and it appears the problem was the surprise piece. I do find it strange the clockmaker couldn't resolve this issue.

French Carriage clock, Quarter repeater problem

Hi all, I'm currently repairing a quarter repeater that has been sadly abused by some tinkerer in the past. A lot of soldering and filing has been done, but i have been lucky to get everything fixed. Only one little problem remains: When the clock is to chime immediately after the hour, the...

mb.nawcc.org

 

[shutterbug]

I think you'll have to do one of two things (at least). Either take it back for proper repair, or figure out how to get the movement out of the case so we can help you get it going.

 

[rgmt79]

I think Ralf in post #9 has hit upon your problem…"the surprise piece" If you want to understand how your movement works and in particular the function of the surprise piece, then get yourself a copy of Laurie Penman's The Carriage Clock (excellent book). However, this is a complicated and delicate movement and the impression you give, it's way out of your league so do as Shutterbug says and find a repairer who knows what he is doing.

Richard

 

[Bernhard J.]

It does not make sense to return it to a clockmaker, who is either not willing or not able to attend to the matter.

A good clockmaker with experience should be able to fix this.

A very nice clock, by the way. And very well built, so there should be no problem to get this issue right. Without needing any "magic"

Cheers, Bernhard

 

[Bernhard J.]

No oil.

Not even snake oil (helps against everything and everywhere)?

Snake oil - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[gmorse]

Hi Jeffrey,

The parts of that snail with the 'surprise piece' (or what Richard Watkins calls the 'freedom piece'), are assembled so that the piece can have limited movement and are held together with a press-fitted collar. You can't clean it properly without dismantling it, which usually requires applying some force to that collar, and sometimes that has to be remade in order to fit tightly enough when reassembled. If it's ever been oiled when it shouldn't be, that could cause it to stick.



Another reason for it to strike extra quarters could be that the snail itself, usually part of the cannon pinion on the centre arbor, may have too much sideshake and be moving away from the quarter rack tail just enough for an extra tooth to sound the hammer. Does it do this on all hours?

I believe the movement will be held in the case by screws through the case base into the lower movement pillars, but I also believe that you should not try this!

Regards,

Graham

 

[Ralph]

Another thing I forgot to mention, has to do with how the surprise piece is actuated. As the clock runs and nears the hour, one of the hour snail's starwheel arm's points will get captured by and is advanced by a pair of pins on the quarter snail. As the hour snail jumps forward, the following arm's point engages a third pin and actuates the surprise piece. The hour starwheel has to detent smartly when this all happens. Spring tension on the detent, polishing the mating surfaces, etc... will help ensure the detent operates as designed.

Ralph

 

[Incroyable]

Strangely enough the issue seems to have gone away on its own.

It only seems to appear after I've toggled the Silent Switch and moved the hands forward 12 hours in order to reset the time and then reactivated the Sonnerie Switch. After a cycle of about 12 hours of the hours randomly striking an extra quarter it stops doing it and now strikes normally.

 

[Dick Feldman]

Unfortunately, that is not like a cut on your hand.
Clock movements do not normally heal themselves.
I hope I am wrong.
D

 

[Incroyable]

Unfortunately, that is not like a cut on your hand.
Clock movements do not normally heal themselves.
I hope I am wrong.
D

Yes I suspect there's something wrong with the surprise piece that somehow gets triggered by moving the hands forwards manually with the Silence Switch on.

However it doesn't seem to emerge during normal operation.

 

[Incroyable]

Hi Jeffrey,

The parts of that snail with the 'surprise piece' (or what Richard Watkins calls the 'freedom piece'), are assembled so that the piece can have limited movement and are held together with a press-fitted collar. You can't clean it properly without dismantling it, which usually requires applying some force to that collar, and sometimes that has to be remade in order to fit tightly enough when reassembled. If it's ever been oiled when it shouldn't be, that could cause it to stick.

View attachment 751404

Another reason for it to strike extra quarters could be that the snail itself, usually part of the cannon pinion on the centre arbor, may have too much sideshake and be moving away from the quarter rack tail just enough for an extra tooth to sound the hammer. Does it do this on all hours?

I believe the movement will be held in the case by screws through the case base into the lower movement pillars, but I also believe that you should not try this!

Regards,

Graham

Hi Graham,

It only does it on certain hours at random from what I can deduce.

 

[zedric]

I believe the movement will be held in the case by screws through the case base into the lower movement pillars, but I also believe that you should not try this!

Regards,

Graham

If you do want to try this, you should note that your case is made slightly differently from normal carriage clock cases... You can see in the pictures in post #5 the screws that hold the movement into the case - these go through the base, and into the bottom movement pillars, and there are two on each side. You can also see in post #1 that there is a brass block under the movement, which is also likely to be held in by the aforementioned screws, and if so, would come free once the screws are removed.

The presence of this block also strengthens the possibility (discussed elsewhere) that this was an older blank movement that was finished for this case (given that at the date this was made, there was very little carriage clock production) - these blocks are sometimes found in early carriage clocks built at a time when the movement makers weren't making as wide a range of sizes of movement as they did later on. If this movement had been made specifically for this case if might well fill the space a little more.

Anyway, back to removing the movement. For this clock, the process will be slightly different than for most as the case is made differently. Normally you would undo the screws holding the base to the case (not the screws holding the movement to the base), then retract the movement slowly out through the bottom of the case. In this case the base doesn't work that way...

First, check if there are any additional screws holding the brass block to the case, and if so, remove these. Then undo the screws that go through the movement pillars. Once these screws are removed, the movement and brass block should be able to slide out though the back (taking care to support the movement as you do this), and take great care at this point that the escapement does not catch on the case, as it can be damaged. The reason I think you should remove the block and the movement together is that if you remove the block first, the movement is more likely to tilt, possibly causing the escapement to catch on something. And it looks like with your case there should be enough room to slide both out carefully past the back door.

Once the movement is out of the case, it is relatively simple to remove the hands and dial. to get to the underdial work.

 

[Incroyable]

If you do want to try this, you should note that your case is made slightly differently from normal carriage clock cases... You can see in the pictures in post #5 the screws that hold the movement into the case - these go through the base, and into the bottom movement pillars, and there are two on each side. You can also see in post #1 that there is a brass block under the movement, which is also likely to be held in by the aforementioned screws, and if so, would come free once the screws are removed.

The presence of this block also strengthens the possibility (discussed elsewhere) that this was an older blank movement that was finished for this case (given that at the date this was made, there was very little carriage clock production) - these blocks are sometimes found in early carriage clocks built at a time when the movement makers weren't making as wide a range of sizes of movement as they did later on. If this movement had been made specifically for this case if might well fill the space a little more.

Anyway, back to removing the movement. For this clock, the process will be slightly different than for most as the case is made differently. Normally you would undo the screws holding the base to the case (not the screws holding the movement to the base), then retract the movement slowly out through the bottom of the case. In this case the base doesn't work that way...

First, check if there are any additional screws holding the brass block to the case, and if so, remove these. Then undo the screws that go through the movement pillars. Once these screws are removed, the movement and brass block should be able to slide out though the back (taking care to support the movement as you do this), and take great care at this point that the escapement does not catch on the case, as it can be damaged. The reason I think you should remove the block and the movement together is that if you remove the block first, the movement is more likely to tilt, possibly causing the escapement to catch on something. And it looks like with your case there should be enough room to slide both out carefully past the back door.

Once the movement is out of the case, it is relatively simple to remove the hands and dial. to get to the underdial work.

How do you disengage the movement from the repeat button on top?

There are four screws on the bottom holding the block and movement to the case as well as the Silence switch.

 

[Incroyable]

I examined this in some detail and it appears the dial is fixed to a frame that's screwed into the case only on the left side. So in addition to the base screws these rather small frame screws also need to be removed.

The construction of this case seems to be different from regular carriage clocks.

 

[zedric]

How do you disengage the movement from the repeat button on top?

There are four screws on the bottom holding the block and movement to the case as well as the Silence switch.

Disengaging the repeat is usually not an issue as the movement usually drops out through the base, but may be possible by simply lifting the button. The slience switch is more of an issue - can you post photos showing the base? There are none in your other thread

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[zedric]

I examined this in some detail and it appears the dial is fixed to a frame that's screwed into the case only on the left side. So in addition to the base screws these rather small frame screws also need to be removed.

The construction of this case seems to be different from regular carriage clocks.

In the photos in your other thread it seems there should be four screws holding the dial to the frame?

 

[Incroyable]

In the photos in your other thread it seems there should be four screws holding the dial to the frame?

Yes there are four screws on the left side and two screws on the top above the escapement platform.

Here's a photo of the bottom. The silence switch can't be screwed out despite looking like a screw.

Frame Screws:

 

[zedric]

I don't know what others think, but it does look as if that silence switch should unscrew - they aren't usually designed with a screw head, and I cant see another way of getting the movement out unless that is removed..

 

[Incroyable]

I managed to take the movement out of the case and remove the hands and dial.

There's a brass dial plate that's pinned to the movement which I didn't want to risk removing since I don't have proper pin pullers.

Strangely when I move the hands forward manually using the key the clock chimes as it should without the extra quarter. I tried this for several cycles and the extra quarter just wasn't chiming.

 

[Incroyable]

I made a video showing the extra quarter chiming at 10:00. It doesn't seem to be an issue with the surprise piece.

 

[Ralph]

I can't tell from the video.

Ralph