perivale westminster chiming clock

[greg wilson]

would like help with perivale clock, i have seen and tried to understand how to set the movement as shown on this forum, but not too sure what the parts are that it mentions, is there a diagram showing the front and rear of the movement with the parts listed, my clock will chime on the hour but will not strike the hours, also as a novice to the westminster chime, what doe's the movement chime on the 1/4 and 1/2 hour, is it just a single strike or will it strike more?

 

[Tinker Dwight]

Hi
Typically it will only strike the hour and chime on all 1/4's.
Chime is shortest on first quarter and longest on the hour.
Tinker Dwight

 

[greg wilson]

was told when i bought the clock that it chimed on the hour, 1/2 and 1/4

 

[harold bain]

Greg, this thread will help you with parts terminology:
https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?t=39874
You should have a 4 note tune on the first quarter, 8 notes on the second, 12 notes on the third, and 16 notes on the hour, before the hour strike.

 

[greg wilson]

most i seem to get is 9 notes, no hour chimes, have seen the setting on this forum with pictures, this is the same movement but only shows the back,, but some of the parts that are described are not listed, and i do not understand, i would like a diagram listing the full parts if poss. as this is my first clock, it has three key winders if that helps,

 

[Tony10Clocks]

Here's some pics of the front and back of a perivale westminster if it's of any help
Tony

 

[Tinker Dwight]

Hi Greg
Can you post a front picture showing things
right after the hour chime has completed.
Just like Tonyboy's first picture but not on its side
( clock upright ).
We should have a good idea where to look next
with that.
Tinker Dwight

 

[greg wilson]

sorry no camera at the moment, seems to chime the 1/4s but not the hours ?

 

[Tinker Dwight]

Hi
I'm not sure what your saying. Chiming is playing the tune.
On the hour, it should chime first and then
it should do what is called strike where it counts
the hour.
I'm assuming ( and could be wrong ) that it is only missing
the strike on the hour but still chimes. Is that true?
If so, the strike is controlled by the thing called
the rack and the snail. The rod that goes across the top,
called the strike flirt, is what enables and starts the strike.
Please find someone with a camera. It will be most
difficult to determine what is not working without seeing
the positions of the various parts.
Tinker Dwight

 

[shutterbug]

Greg - does your movement look like the one pictured? That many hammers? We need to know what you have

 

[Mike Phelan]

A silly question, but are you winding all three springs?

It probably needs some maintenance unless it has been cleaned and oiled in the last ten years or so, but it's not a beginner's project.

I'm not sure what you're actually saying, either. Whether it's a striking or chiming problem.

Do you know what the Westminster tune actually sounds like? That would tell us if it is chiming OK.

Note that your thread is in the wrong section and might get better exposure if the mods move it.

 

[greg wilson]

if you look at (assembling a perivale clock problem) it is identical, i have tried following the instructions on setting the clock, but being a novice cannot understand some of the terms i.e which butterfly are they talking about the one on the left or right, the chiming seems o.k. but will not strike the hour, after the chime one hammer lifts up but not sure if this is part of the chime that as not completed or the hour strike.

 

[Tinker Dwight]

Hi
I thought it might help a little to describe
the normal sequence of operation.
First look at the page Harold has posted. I know
your movement looks a little different but it helps
to know the names.
Yours seems to have a litfing lever instead of the
release as shown in the parts picture. Yours seems
to have a combined chime and strike flirt. I'll just
refer to that as the flirt.
Now for the part I'm not sure about. There are two
ways that the strike can be initiated. Either the
star behind the hour wheel has a longer lobe for
the hour chime or the chime locking plate has a
higher lobe for the hour. The star is called the
canon pinion in the parts picture. I think your clock
has the higher lobe on the locking plate.
One of these will cause the rack hook to release
the rack, by lifting the rack hook,so that the rack tail
will sample the snail attached to the hour wheel.
The distance the rack falls sets the number of strikes.
The flirt also puts the strike in what is called
warning. It allows the internal wheel with the
single pin to rotate slightly so it is no longer
held by the lever connected internally to the rack
hook and is now held by the end of the flirt.
When the flirt falls onto the notch of the chime
plate, it releases the warning wheel, allowing
the gathering pallet to lift the rack and count
the hour strikes.
The gathering pallet will then rotate once per
strike until the rack is lifted high enough that
the rack hook falls off the end. At this time
the warning wheel, inside, will be blocked by the
lever connected to the rack hook.
I hope this description helps a little. It is
hoped that you can then describe what part of the
sequence your clock is not getting to.
Tinker Dwight

 

[greg wilson]

think i'm almost there, don't know how but clock chimes then the hour butterfly spins (didn't do that before) and the ratchet lever climbs to the top then stops, think next it should lift two hammers and strike the hours, this is not happening, anyone know what i should do next.

 

[soaringjoy]

Greg and all,
I'm moving this to the Clock Repairs forum.
Maybe we can ravel it up better there.
As already said, chiming clocks are not exactly beginners clocks;
understanding how it works is somewhat essential.

Jurgen

 

[rlwindle]

Greg,
These hammers are known to stick and prevent the clock for chiming. If you open the back of the clock, and move the minute hand to around to the 3, 6, 9, or 12, do you notice the hammer on the left or the first hammer away from you sticking up just a little bit higher than the others. If this is happening, you will probably have to take it to a clock repairman.

When I got my first Perivale clock the chimes and the time were off. What I did to get them in sync was to stop the pendulum, move the hands until I until I heard it go through all 12 notes, and strike the hour. Then I removed the nut holding the hands in place, lifted the minute hand out, then the hour hand, I put the hour hand at the number that was just struck out being careful not to move it to the left of right, then I put the minute hand at the 12 position the same way, put the nut back in, started the pendulum. Seems like an odd way to do it, but it worked.

The trick is not to move the hands to the left or right after setting them back in, if you do, you have to do it again.

Just a diclaimer, I no longer do it this way now.

My Anvil Perivale clock is pictured.

 

[greg wilson]

hi, thanks for the last posts advice, on call at the moment and find it hard to start working on the clock knowing i may be called out, please will it make any difference that my clock is key wound to the way you have fixed you chiming problem, many thanks

 

[Mike Phelan]

Unless someone has removed the minute hand, the chiming will be correct; if it's striking the wrong hour, just move the hour hand. There's no need to touch the minute hand.

BTW, it's a "fly" not a "butterfly"

 

[greg wilson]

hi, sorry but looks like a butterfly, the movement did not have any hands when i bought it, only a round fastener that holds the hands in place, i borrowed the hands from a old wall clock i have, and wound the three mainsprings, the clock moves the hands and chimes the 1/4s only thing it doe's not seem to strike the hours, the ratchet will clime to the top, but will not strike the hours,

 

[Tony10Clocks]

Could it be the gathering pallet
Tony

 

[greg wilson]

first i would like to thank everyone for taking the time to help, please can you explain what the gathering pallet is, if this is the lever that looks like a hammer head shark with teeth (sorry but it was the only thing i could think of) that seems to climb to the top but thats as far as it goes, nothing else happens, just to recap, clock chimes on all 1/4 including the hour, the hammer lever which should lift the hammers for the hour strike moves, but not enough to lift the hammers for the hour strike can anybody tell me what to try next please.

 

[Mike Phelan]

hi, sorry but looks like a butterfly

Don't be sorry, Greg, it's not a criminal offence!
Like an earlier post says there's a sticky about terminology, which I've only just looked at and need to post regarding it, but another time.

the movement did not have any hands when i bought it, only a round fastener that holds the hands in place, i borrowed the hands from a old wall clock i have, and wound the three mainsprings, the clock moves the hands and chimes the 1/4s only thing it doe's not seem to strike the hours, the ratchet will clime to the top, but will not strike the hours,

Gotcha!
When you say the "ratchet" (rack?) will "clime" [sic] to the top, do you mean that the striking train is running (wheels turning) and the gathering pallet (thing with a pin that picks up the rack teeth) is pickimng up the rack?
If that's so then are the hammers moving at all when it strikes?

 

[greg wilson]

yes the rack climbs to the top but nothing seems to happen, when the clock chimes and i think it should strike the hours the lever that should lift the hammers moves to the centre of the hole in the back plate and stops, if i move it to the top it lifts the two striking hammers, this seems to be the part that is not working

 

[greg wilson]

i have now managed to get the clock to chime on all the 1/4s and will strike 12 for the hours when i move the minute hand but after turning the hand for a full hour the clock will not continue to chime or strike the hours untill reset, is this something to do with the star which is located at the back of the hour and minute hand, if so can anyone tell me how to set the star and clock so it will strike and chime please.

 

[Tinker Dwight]

Hi
Not sure what you mean by reset?
If you are skipping the 1/4 chimes,
it wants to realign it self to the hour.
It does this by chiming the 1/4s until
it is ready for the hour and then will
hold the hour chime until the next hour.
Is this what you are talking about?
Tinker Dwight

 

[shutterbug]

I think the OP is referencing the front cannon pinion and the 'star' lifting cam. Not getting enough lift.

Your assessment might be right - not lifting enough - but that would be rare. My guess is that the detent lever(s) are out of adjustment (inside the plates, upper right side from the front). However, you said before that the chimes were working, and the strike train was running but not activating the strike hammers. That's a whole different scenario than what you have now. So, I'm thinking you need to undo whatever you did to alter the chiming. Then we can get back to the striking problem, which should be a fairly easy adjustment This would be a good time for some pictures with notes explaining what you've done and what you observe now.

 

[Mike Phelan]

Post #23 seems like loss of power from the striking train?

 

[shutterbug]

Post #23 seems like loss of power from the striking train?

I'm not quite sure. If the rack is climbing, the train is running. I think he either has a really bad arbor hole that needs bushed or the lift for the strike needs to be moved closer to the strike wheel.

 

[greg wilson]

think it cannot be far off now, it is now chiming the 1/4s and now seems to strike the hours, but the two hammers seem to remain lifted on the last strike, i now do not want to make anymore ajustments without advice, as this is the nearest to fully working the movement has been, the clock as just started to chime, the 1/4s and the minute hand seemed to be between the 1/4 setting, it continued to chime untill i moved the minute hand to the 1/4 setting then it stopped chiming as the lever dropped into the count wheel notch, what adjustment do i need to do next.

 

[shutterbug]

OK Greg - lets take a look at terminology. Chiming is when the clock is making music. Striking is when it's counting the hours.
Please adjust your last post so it's a bit more clear what you see. I also think we're close now

 

[greg wilson]

hope the last post is ajusted o.k. think i got a bit excited at being so close

 

[greg wilson]

only one more problem, the clock chimes the 1/4s when the minute hand is between the 1/4s i.e. 10 past 25 past ect. and i have to move the minute hand to the 15min 30min ect. so the warning lever falls into the count wheel notch to stop the chiming, how do i adjust the minute hand so that it chimes on the 1/4s and not in the middle of the 1/4s

 

[Tinker Dwight]

think it cannot be far off now, it is now chiming the 1/4s and now seems to strike the hours, but the two hammers seem to remain lifted on the last strike, i now do not want to make anymore ajustments without advice, as this is the nearest to fully working the movement has been, the clock as just started to chime, the 1/4s and the minute hand seemed to be between the 1/4 setting, it continued to chime untill i moved the minute hand to the 1/4 setting then it stopped chiming as the lever dropped into the count wheel notch, what adjustment do i need to do next.

Hi
It sounds like it is not going into warning. I'm not familiar
enough with your movement to tell you where to look.
As the levers start to lift, there is a wheel inside that has
a pin on the side. It will make a part of a turn and then
be blocked by something sticking through the plate from
the lifting arm or flirt that will block it from continuing to turn.
When it reaches the 1/4 to start, the arm will drop,
releasing it.
It sounds like it is either not blocking the pin soon enough
or the pin is missing or it is lifting too high and the pin
is going under it.
You need to watch the motion in slow motion to see which
is the problem. You can slow things down by letting the
chime fly ( butterfly ) turn slowly.
Tinker Dwight
-> posts merged by system <-

only one more problem, the clock chimes the 1/4s when the minute hand is between the 1/4s i.e. 10 past 25 past ect. and i have to move the minute hand to the 15min 30min ect. so the warning lever falls into the count wheel notch to stop the chiming, how do i adjust the minute hand so that it chimes on the 1/4s and not in the middle of the 1/4s

Hi
There are two things that stop the chime. The first thing, I describe
in my last note is your problem, not the second thing that is the
falling of the arm into the notch. The falling into the notch is only
to end the chime, not to start the chime.
It will come out of the notch during warning. It is the pin on the
inside wheel that holds it until the quarter.
Tinker Dwight

 

[greg wilson]

thanks for the last post, everything you say i can see on the movement. is it o.k. to move the minute hands round for the chimes and hour strike, or is it best to let it run the full hour before making any ajustments ?

 

[shutterbug]

Your minute hand probably has an adjustable bushing in the center of it. Put the tail of a file into the hole, and at the BASE of the hand push to see if it will turn a little. Adjust it until it chimes right on time.

 

[Tinker Dwight]

Your minute hand probably has an adjustable bushing in the center of it. Put the tail of a file into the hole, and at the BASE of the hand push to see if it will turn a little. Adjust it until it chimes right on time.

Hi
I think he was saying that he had a runaway chime on warning.
I could be wrong and misunderstood him.
If it is just off in time, this is the right thing to do.
He also mentioned the hammers being up at the end but that
is another problem.
Tinker Dwight

 

[shutterbug]

yeah, I caught that too, Tinker ... and you dealt with that and explained it well. I thought he was also saying that the timing of the hands was off, but rethinking it, it probably is just starting on warning and continuing to run.

 

[greg wilson]

every time i make a slight adjustment it's like taking a step backward, just as i think i am getting there it all seems to go wrong, the clock will chime then then it will strike the hours, but not in the order it should ? . just don't know what i am doing wrong, i think it must be the timing that i can not get right, if anyone can please advice the right steps in which to adjust the clock, starting at the begining, as you have guessed i am a novice but very keen to learn.

 

[shutterbug]

First, lets try to eliminate what has already been suggested. As you approach the hour, when the strike first sets up for striking, do you see the fan move, then stop, then start again at the top of the hour? It might do this during the time the hand is moving toward the 12 or it might do it during the chime sequence ..... but it MUST stop after starting and then start again. What do you see?

 

[Mike Phelan]

the clock will chime then then it will strike the hours, but not in the order it should?

Greg, I think the first thing is that we need to know exactly what is wrong with both the chiming and striking, and whether the fault(s) is/are consistent or intermittent. You haven't given us enough detail.

No chance of a pic yet, as we're all working in the dark? Is it anything like this one? If so, I'll stick some labels on it so you can equate your parts with the names.

 

[greg wilson]

the fly seems to give a warning just 1/2 to 1 full turn then will go onto strike, and the picture is the same as my clock, one thing i am unsure about is if i put the lever to silent will the clock chime on the next 1/4 or doe's it have to reset?

 

[Mike Phelan]

the fly seems to give a warning [strike or chime?] just 1/2 to 1 full turn [of what?] then will go onto strike, and the picture is the same as my clock, one thing i am unsure about is if i put the lever to silent will the clock chime on the next 1/4 or doe's it have to reset?

The silent lever raises the warning lever and locking lever, effectively putting it into warning, therefore when you put it back to chime, it will give the next chime from when you locked it; if that makes it out of sequence, it will correct itself within the hour, just as it would if you forgot to wind the chime mainspring.
The self-correct arrangement ensures that.

Here are a few labels for you as I'm still finding some difficulty figuring out what the symptoms are and whether it's the chiming or striking or both!

FWIW it might help if you hang on for a few days as the clock shown I've just overhauled and will appear on here soon.

HTH.

 

[Tony1951]

WARNING - I AM A BEGINNER, but I have solved the runaway chiming on an identical clock.

My Perivale Bentima had some similar issues. In particular the runaway chiming that occurs at about seven minutes before the quarter chimes (on each quarter, not just the first one).

On my clock which is identical to this one, I found that when the clock went into warning, the locking detent was ineffective and allowed the chimes to run on and on until the minute hand's movement allowed it to stop. To my inexpert eye, holding the chimes back and allowing them to operate correctly requires two stop devices to operate; one on the count wheel, and one on another wheel on the backside of the front clock plate, behind and slightly above the count wheel. In my case, these seemed to be slightly mistimed, in any case, I solved that problem by changing the timing very slightly.


The notched wheel on the back of the clock plate which engages with the locking lever (it may be called the 'locking detent') rotates at about three times the rate of the count wheel. This made it a bit tricky to see where exactly the wheel needed to be in relation to the count wheel, but you can stop the chiming mechanism quite easily and see that when the locking lever has dropped into the notch on the count wheel, stopping the chimes, it has also settled into the rather longer notch on the wheel on the other side of the clock plate. If these are mistimed, like mine, you will see that the locking lever has not FULLY descended into the notch of the count wheel. It can't do so unless the lever is also fully in the notch on the detent on the other side of the clock plate inside the mechanism. Fortunately it is easy to see this by looking into the top of the chiming mechanism.

There are two grub screws on the rear of the count wheel which allow it to rotate on the arbor, and IF NEEDED, the timing can be altered by loosening these and slightly moving the arrangement of the count wheel on the arbor and hence in relation to the rest of the mechanism. Don't do this unless, like mine, your locking lever is plainly not sitting in the detent notch on this inside wheel while on the front of the clock the lever is lined up with the notch in the count wheel.

In my case a small change was all that was needed to make the runaway chiming stop.

I won't comment on the strike part of your problem except to ask if the strikes you did get, were initiated by the clocks normal operation (albeit speeded up by turning the hour hand) or were set off by manually lifting the flirt which is also the locking lever on the chimes. My clock would strike whenever I lifted that lever marked as 'locking lever' in the photo up above, but they would not happen when the clock's own mechanism was lifting the rack hook. It almost set it off, but was about 25 thou of an inch short of lifting it high enough. I solved that by adding a smidgen of solder to the top of the strike flirt where it engages on the rack hook and triggers the chimes.

If you can lift that locking lever up manually to its full height and the chime mechanism doesn't operate, then your Bentima has a different problem to mine.

I found this mechanism VERY sensitive to the smallest adjustments or handling. Even putting it back in its case face down on a cushion was enough to make it work or stop working because gravity altered the disposition of the locking lever, moving it forward or not when it was face down. I am glad to say that it is now working fine, but it took some time to get it there.

ONCE AGAIN I STRESS THAT I AM A TOTAL BEGINNER AND YOU SHOULD KEEP THAT IN MIND.

This video shows my Bentima going through its chiming cycle after I had made the alteration mentioned above. Keen viewers will spot that the strike mechanism isn't operating properly since the strike flirt is not lifting the rack hook high enough to drop the rack right down to its proper level in relation to the snail on the hour arbor. This was taken just before the 'solder trick' which solved that problem.

VIDEO:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vTUCHnF-j_E

 

[shutterbug]

Watch Tony's video carefully, Greg. We need to know specifically what yours is doing that's different than his. Mikes pic's will help with the proper labeling of parts.
Two things to notice on the video that are not real clear. When he approaches the 1/4 hours, there is a brief warn when the chime sets up for the chiming sequence. He turns past it pretty fast, but it needs to be there on your clock and will hold the chime until the hand moves to the exact release time.
Second, as the chime progresses on the hour, the strike goes into warn, and is held there until the chime finishes. Then it runs.
Compare your clock and let us know what is different. If you could upload a video it would be MOST helpful

 

[greg wilson]

hi, have been watching the video for at least a week, and if i move the minute hand as fast as in the video i get the same result, it is when i move the hand slower that it seems to start chiming on the warning, i have tried to adjust the warning lever detent but not sure how it should be set, think this could be the problem, the hours seem to strike o.k. would like a picture of the detent lever in relation to the pin to see that when the warning lever is engaged in the count wheel the position of the lever and the pin (hope this makes sense) thanks for the pictures naming the parts.i have just made a small ajustment to the warning lever detent and now get the warning when i move the minute hand but no chime.

 

[shutterbug]

OK. You notice that the locking lever has a part that goes through the plate and into the movement. That is what encounters a pin and stops the train during the warn. Yours is probably missing that pin. It should be on the wheel that runs the fly.

 

[greg wilson]

the pin is there, and i think this pin and lever are not set to operate when they should, but not sure how to set them, i know the lever lifts and releases the pin and the chimes will start, but at what moment ?

 

[Tony1951]

the pin is there, and i think this pin and lever are not set to operate when they should, but not sure how to set them, i know the lever lifts and releases the pin and the chimes will start, but at what moment ?

On my movement, where the little detent on the locking lever goes into the movement above the count wheel, you should see a small wheel with a notch in it. This notch is crucial to stopping the chimes running away like mine did and like yours do.

Set the hour hand to initiate the ordinary quarter chimes and slow the chime mechanism by gently applying pressure to the fly spindle, so you can see what happens EXACTLY at the moment the locking lever drops into one of the notches on the count wheel.

FIRSTLY - Does the locking lever drop right to the BOTTOM of the notch on the count wheel, and does the mechanism stop like mine does in the video?

If it doesn't drop to the bottom of the notch or if it doesn't stop, then -

SECONDLY - observe from above the engagement of the locking detent on the inside of the movement above the count wheel inside the chime mechanism and see if the detent is in the notch (and locking) on that inner wheel at the same time as the detent on the front is in the notch of the count wheel.

This was what was wrong with mine. The two wheels were slightly out of timing and the detent on the count wheel would not sink to the bottom of the notch on the count wheel. The reason was, it was not in the notch in the wheel inside the mechanism and could not go down any further, until I adjusted the timing so that both notches coincided at the same time. Then it locked and stopped the chimes running.

Because the inner wheel runs at about three times the speed of the count wheel, a small error can put it miles out of timing. If that is the problem you will soon see why the locking lever can't lock. I adjusted mine by slackening two grub screws on the back of the count wheel spindle so that I could rotate the wheel just a touch and synchronised both wheels.

 

[Mike Phelan]

Yours is probably missing that pin. It should be on the wheel that runs the fly.

Unusually, on these, the pin is on the wheel below; what is normally the warning wheel has nothing on it. That was done to avoid any setting being needed for the warning run on assembly.

the pin is there, and i think this pin and lever are not set to operate when they should, but not sure how to set them.

Here's how:
When the chiming is stopped, and the two detents on the locking lever are in their respective notches on the count wheel and locking cam, the warning lever detent with the setscrew should only just be below the pin.

i know the lever lifts and releases the pin and the chimes will start, but at what moment ?

No! It releases the pin when the warning lever drops. If you have made it so it chimes when the lever lifts, it will chime forever (almost)!

Because the inner wheel runs at about three times the speed of the count wheel, a small error can put it miles out of timing. If that is the problem you will soon see why the locking lever can't lock. I adjusted mine by slackening two grub screws on the back of the count wheel spindle so that I could rotate the wheel just a touch and synchronised both wheels.

It runs at ten times, as in most (all?) clocks. Locking wheel one turn per peal (4 notes on a Westy) and wheel below (1 + 2 + 3 + 4) peals.

Greg, if you have to move the count wheel as in Tony's post above, you might have to do a limilar thing to the wheel on its rear pivot; the one that drives the chime barrel.
As promised, have a look at this.

 

[greg wilson]

the locking lever falls into the notch on the count wheel and the small wheel inside, now when the clock should chime the hour it will only chime a few notes then stop on the count wheel and three hammers are left in mid air, then if i move the minute hand round to say 8min past the hour it will chime forever until i move the hand to 15min then the lever falls into the notch and stops the chime, if i let the clock run the full hour itself it seems to give the warning but will not chime, the only two things i have moved is the lever that stops the pin and the very bottom cog the one with the two grub screws allowing the hammers to fall, now while doing this the clock as started chiming with the minute hand at 20mins past and will not stop until the hand reaches 26min past, the warning lever is now half way between the notches, stayed like this until the hand reached 1/2 past then chimed twice and stopped when the lever fell into the notch and as left one hammer lifted, i am waiting to see what happens next.