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Perivale Westminster Chime Not Chiming or Striking

hillbma

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Good day all.

I am a recent addition to this forum and have perused a number of very useful articles, but can't seem to find one that fits exactly the issue I am working on. While I am brushing up on the proper naming for the different parts, I thought a short video might be helpful:

http://youtu.be/F012NjAv7p0

Basically, the movement ticks, but does not chime. From the video, can anyone see any glaring issues with the movement? I have seen other posts with this movement and it looks similar to my untrained eye, so I though I would ask for a second opinion.

Kind regards,

Barney
 

harold bain

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Hi, Barney, welcome to the message board. Your video doesn't tell us a few important things, like "is it wound up"? Can you lift the chime lever to trip the chime, and will it then cycle?
 

hillbma

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Is the chime lever the same thing as the long lever pointed out in the diagram named "Urgos chime mvt front.jpg"https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?39874-Clock-Parts-Terminology ?

If so, then the answer is no. I did check each spring to see if it was wound and they all felt wound...at least, I didn't wind the two chiming springs any because they seemed already fully wound. I only ended up winding the middle spring.

So, based on your question and my answer, does that mean there is a problem with this spring? Perhaps overwound or broken?

Thank you,

Barney
 

harold bain

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The chime spring is usually much stronger than the time spring. It might be fully wound. It appears that the chime locking plate is sitting too far out as the lever that rides on it is falling behind it. Other than that, your video shakes a bit too much and is often out of focus.
 

shutterbug

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I think the rack is on wrong, and the tail is sitting against the locking plate. That's probably preventing the plate from moving. The rack tail has to engage the snail when it falls.
 

harold bain

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Good eye, SB. The rack certainly is positioned very wrongly. Barney have a good look at the movement in the terminology thread, and you might find some clues.
 

hillbma

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Thank you, SB and HB.

I will focus on what you have pointed out and let you know how things work out.

Cheers,
B
 

shutterbug

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Looking at the video again, I'm thinking the rack is on the wrong pin. Look for one on the other side of the snail. That would also indicate a missing stop wheel. I just can't make the rack work from that pin in my mind. Maybe you could post a still pic of the front of the movement for us?
 

Mike Phelan

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It looks as though the rack is in the right place (there's nowhere else for it to go) but the hour wheel has come forward so the rack tail has fallen past 12 and therefore cannot be gathered.

Everything on the chiming side looks OK so my guess is that the chiming train is stalled due to needing a clean or the mainspring is a bit tired.
These Perivale (DUFA) movements need all the power they can get.

Another thing is to see if the chime warning lever is falling completely (it's incorrectly called a flirt in the link) as if not, it might be that the spring (a straight wire between the plates) is bent. The warning pin on these is also the locking pin and therefore on the wheel below the usual place so has more torque.
 

shutterbug

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I thought about that too, Mike .... but if the tail simply moved past the snail, when you put it back on the other side it would be way too high, and if on this side of the snail is falling the wrong way (up). Maybe it's flipped over? As I mentioned above, I can't make it work from that side in my mind :)
 

Tinker Dwight

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Hi
Maybe this is too obvious but it looks like the silencing
mechanism is stopping the lifting lever ( flirt ) from falling
enough to run.
Tinker Dwight
 

hillbma

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Thanks all. SB was correct, there was an issue with the position of the rack and hook and chime locking plate and locking lever.

The locking lever had an issue where, behind the gathering pallet, where the locking lever enters the movement, it was holding the strike warning wheel. The problem was whether the locking lever was pushed up or down, it was still holding the pin on strike warning wheel.

I next checked the chime warning wheel, and the same thing was happening....but this time it was the warning lever detent that was blocking the pin on the chime warning wheel. Also, the warning lever spring was not bent down to hold the screw on the warning lever to set it's tension. I attached the spring onto the screw to set the tension. The warning lever detent still would not release he pin on the chime warning wheel, so I loosened the screw to move it slightly to allow the pin to pass when he locking lever was raised.After this, raising the locking lever allowed the chimes to chime, and after this followed the strikes. Somehow, now the srike wheel detent on the locking lever was now aloowing the srike wheel pin to pass and allow for the striking.

So, it looks like all the springs are good.

But, the chimes still do not happen by themself when the minute hand makes it's rounds. They only chime when I lift the locking lever manually. Also, the chimes do not start and stop on the correct notes. For example, they may starrt on the third note of the westminster chime, and finish on the 6th note...after the next 1/4 hour, they start on he 7th and end 8 notes later. So, I am trying to figure out this part of the problem.

Here's the current front face of the movement if that shows anything else of use:


peri_west_front_face.jpg


Also, please forgive if my terminology is a bit off ...I have seem some pictures that call parts one thing, and then a different picture with a completely different name...so I am not sure which term might be the most applicable for this particular movement.

Cheers,

Barney
 

shutterbug

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That picture does clear things up a bit :) It looks like the rack is counter balanced, and what I thought was the tail is not. So, check to see that the gathering pallet spins without touching anything, and the same for the locking plate. Nothing should touch them. Then, behind the snail is the lift cam on the cannon pinion. It should have four points, one higher than the others. The high one is the hour lift. While turning the minute hand, observe how the levers are lifted. It is not lifting high enough, or the lock is set too low. Let us know what you see. The large wheel on the back is where your set the chime. You can save that for later, but if the hammers are trying to lift during warn and run start you may not have enough power to overcome the resistance.
 

Mike Phelan

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The part on the rack hook opposite the tail is to rivet the spring-loaded tail in place. That is so the clock will keep running if it fails to strike at 12:00 thd the stud on the rack tail can slide over the big step on hte snail.

Back to the problem:
The chiming auto-correct on these is a little unusual and uses the small stepped self-correct lever (SCL) on the back of the count wheel. At the end of the 3/4 chime, a pin on the chime warning lever pushes this lever over against its spring.

Watch that this is happening; it's probably OK. Turn the hands and see if the longest point on the star cam on the cannon pinion is lifting the warning lever sufficiently to allow the SCL to spring back so the warning lever can fall to start the chiming.
On the shorter star points the pin sits on the step on the SCL, leaving it in warning.

Let us know what happens.
 

hillbma

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Thank you for all the suggestions. The chiming is now working. It is now automatically triggered with the movement of the minute hand. The is one last thing that isn't quite right. I have been looking for the source of the problem but haven't had any luck. The problem is with the striking on the hour. The striking starts fine, on the hour, but the lever (I couldn't find the name for it anywhere) he pulls up the two rods and then drops thems to strike finishes in the up position. By this, I mean that the two rods are left being held up. This prevents any chime on these two rods from actually chiming. (I borrowed the below image from Chasey96 in the post https://mb.nawcc.org/showthread.php?74772-Perivale-movement - my apologies if I shouldn't be borrowing other users pictures.)


Chasey96.jpg

This isn't exactly my movement as mine is pendulum driven, but everything else seems to be identical. Where I have drawn in the red arrow is where a pin is attached to the lever that lifts the two outer mallets to strike the two outer bars. When the striking is complete, the two rods are left in the up position. This seems to be controlled by multi-spiked star wheel located inside the movement on the other side of where I've drawn the green arrow. Unfortunately, this wheel does not seem to allow for any tweaking by me. Perhaps I will post a short video of the current function of the movement as that might better show what I am trying to describe. Regardless, thank you all for the help and suggestions you have offered up so far.

Regards,

Barney
 

shutterbug

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If I'm understanding you correctly, during the strike warn the two hammers that normally are for the strike rise and the last two notes of the chime can't play. Is that what you're saying? If so, you need to adjust the strike set-up (warn) so it doesn't turn so far. Let me know if that's what you're seeing, and we'll pursue it :)
 

Mike Phelan

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Barney

We don't need a video; I can see what the problem is; it's as SB says. What is happening is that when the striking has finished, the linkage that operates the hammers is left in the lifted position.
I'll assume that the striking train is otherwise working OK, ie runs at the end of the hour chime and strikes the correct number of blows.

It is a timing issue but you do not need to separate the plates at all; proceed as follows:

  • Run the chiming to the end of the hour chime and stop the train with a clothespeg or paper clip on the fly.
  • Start the striking train running a bit at a time by holding the fly until the lever drops off the star wheel.
  • Allow it to run until the warning pin (wheel below the fly) is vertical. That's the point where the striking train should stop.
  • Lift the rack until the rack hook drops on the bottom end of the rack.
  • Still holding the fly, twist the gathering pallet clockwise so the detent on the rack hook drops into the step.
  • That's it; test.
Barney.JPG
 
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