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Perivale Movement

IanJ

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Feb 26, 2011
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Hello

Can anyone help me please? I have an old Perivale movement (photo attached) that I need to clean and reassemble. Unfortunately when I took off the back plate all the wheels fell out over the workbench despite me trying to keep them all in place - it just happened! As I am new to this I am now left with a pile of parts and no clear idea of how they fit together. Has anyone a photo or schematic of how all the wheels fit together that they can pass onto me please? Help seriously needed!:eek:

Thanks

Ian 85976.jpg
 

IanJ

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Feb 26, 2011
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Re: Perivale Movement - Help with reassembly

Hello

After I posted my message asking for help reassembling this movement I read another older message that suggested posting some photos of the movement plate and wheels, with the wheels numbered. The idea was that someone could identify which numbered wheel went where on the plate.

As a result I added two further photos and would appreciate any help that can be given to piece this back together.

Thanks again

Ian 85978.jpg 85979.jpg
 

harold bain

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Ian, generally the wheels get smaller closer to the top. In your picture, 4 and 1 go on the time side with the escapewheel at the top. The others are the strike side, with 3-5-2 and 6 being the order, as near as I can tell.
What did you wish to do while it's apart? Have you cleaned the mainsprings?
 

Tony10Clocks

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Hello. I have some photo's of a perivale movement if there any help.
If you need some more iv'e got a few. Always take loads of photo's when i take a movement apart.
Tony 85997.jpg 85998.jpg 85999.jpg 86000.jpg 86001.jpg 86002.jpg 86003.jpg
 

shutterbug

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Star wheel goes on the outside of the plate, and the fly is at the top, turned by the wheel that's in there now. You'll get it :)
 

bangster

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Some Names:
#3 is the SECOND STRIKE WHEEL (the First is the gear on the spring barrel)
#5 is the STAR WHEEL -- star trips the strike hammer
#2 is the WARNING WHEEL -- pin sticking out is the warning pin
#6 is the FAN FLY --governs the speed of the train
The one that's still in the plate is the GATHERING PALLET WHEEL --turns the gathering pallet that operates the rack.

First wheel drives Second Wheel
Second Wheel drives Star Wheel
Star Wheel drives GP Wheel
GP Wheel drives Warning Wheel
Warning Wheel drives Fan Fly

HTH,

bangster
 

Tinker Dwight

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Hi
In some sense, it is like a jig-saw puzzle. The pieces
generally only go togther one way. Gears are the
easier parts to get back together. You'll see that the
spacing of the holes and the locations of the pinions
and gear wheels will dictate most all of the sequence.
The levers and such for the strike can be more dificult.
There is some timing of the warning wheel relative to
the gather pallet and the star wheel but you'll need to
have it together before you can worry about that.
Tinker Dwight
 

IanJ

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Thanks again to everyone for their help with this. I managed to get the movement back together and stripped it down again today to clean it. Once it was cleaned and dried I reassembled it as per the photos and instructions and it ticks away a treat once I got it in-beat.:D

The only problem now is that I think I messed up the strike as nothing happens now. :confused: This is a steep learning curve for me but I guess I'll get there sometime soon.

If anyone has any ideas why it won't strike that would be great. Sorry to keep asking for help!

Thanks

Ian
 

bangster

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To know what to look for, you gotta understand how rack & snail strike works. Let me try to explain, with the help of the pictures. (You might want to print them out.)
86333.jpg 86334.jpg
Before the strike, the rack is raised up and its toe is resting on the tip of the rack hook. In the pic, the rack is dropped all the way down, but imagine that it's raised up so it's supported by the rack hook under its toe.

The strike train is locked by a pin on the warning wheel, resting against a projection on the back of the rack hook.

As the time to strike arrives, the lifting cam (on the minute wheel arbor) raises the lifting lever. That raises the locking lever and three things happen: (1) the locking lever raises the rack hook, releasing the rack and letting it drop; (2) the rack hook projection moves out of the way of the warning pin, unlocking the train; (3) the warning wheel rotates a half-turn and stops.

The reason it stops is that the warning pin has come around and banged into the TOP of the locking lever. The train is ready to run, but won't until the locking lever gets out of the way.

At the moment of strike,the lifting lever drops off the lifting cam lobe; the locking lever drops out of the way of the warning pin, and the train runs.
At each rotation, the pin on the gathering pallet grabs a tooth on the rack, lifts it, and lets the rack hook grab it. With each tooth there's a strike.

When the last tooth is gathered, the rack hook falls under the toe of the rack, the rack hook projection falls into the path of the warning pin, the warning pin hits it and the train is locked, ready for the next time.
..........

If your strike isn't working at all (and the spring has been wound!), it's because the train isn't unlocking when it should. Turn the minute hand and watch what happens as the lifting cam raises the lifting lever. You may be able to spot what's not happening that should be. If the warning pin isn't getting released, why not? If it is getting released, but the warning wheel isn't turning, why not? Is the rack failing to drop when it's supposed to, why is it doing that?

Check it out, and get back to us with a report.

bangster
 

IanJ

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Feb 26, 2011
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harold bain;536755 said:
Ian, generally the wheels get smaller closer to the top. In your picture, 4 and 1 go on the time side with the escapewheel at the top. The others are the strike side, with 3-5-2 and 6 being the order, as near as I can tell.
What did you wish to do while it's apart? Have you cleaned the mainsprings?
Hello Harold, Can you tell me how to go about cleaning the mainsprings please. Do you simply dunk them in cleaning fluid and then drain and let dry? Thanks.

Hello bangster, thanks for the info on the strike train. I'm slowly working my way through it and will let you know what's going on.

Ian
 

Mike Phelan

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bangster;537885 said:
The strike train is locked by a pin on the warning wheel, resting against a projection on the back of the rack hook.
Probably on Ian's Perivale, Bang, it locks by a projection (detent) on the rack hook catching a step on the gathering pallet as in your pic; generally it was some of the later designs, like Smiths who locked with the warning pin to save timing on assembly.
That raises the locking lever and three things happen: (1) the locking lever raises the rack hook, releasing the rack and letting it drop; (2) the rack hook projection moves out of the way of the warning pin, unlocking the train; (3) the warning wheel rotates a half-turn and stops.
(2) and (3) are simultaneous, and (1) occurs last and only on the hour, otherwise the 1/2 hour cannot work.

What you call a lockimg lever is a warning lever this side of the pond, BTW.

IanJ;539247 said:
Hello Harold, Can you tell me how to go about cleaning the mainsprings please. Do you simply dunk them in cleaning fluid and then drain and let dry? Thanks.

Ian
I'm sure you'll be totally confused now I've stuck my oar in!

Remember the springs will need lubricating with grease or thick oil.
 

harold bain

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IanJ;539247 said:
Hello Harold, Can you tell me how to go about cleaning the mainsprings please. Do you simply dunk them in cleaning fluid and then drain and let dry? Thanks.

Hello bangster, thanks for the info on the strike train. I'm slowly working my way through it and will let you know what's going on.

Ian
Ian, the springs need to be removed from the barrel, cleaned, dried (a hair dryer works well), then relubed, and put back into the barrels.
 

IanJ

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bangster;537885 said:
The strike train is locked by a pin on the warning wheel, resting against a projection on the back of the rack hook.

Ok, I'm very confused now as the pin on the warning wheel revolves just above the projection on the back of the rack hook - the two don't meet or touch therefore the warning wheel just keeps going round (or rather it goes round when I physically move it even though it's wound).

When I turn the minute arbor the lifting cam raises the lifting lever which raises the rack hook which in turn releases the rack (the rack toe was resting on the bottom of the rack hook). Nothing happens, nothing turns even though as I say it is wound. On another movement I have when I manually lift the rack hook everything springs into life and it goes through it's chiming sequence. The Perivale movement seems to be dead. Did I kill it by taking it apart and cleaning it??!!!! :(

Ian



All very frustrating
 

bangster

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Probably on Ian's Perivale, Bang, it locks by a projection (detent) on the rack hook catching a step on the gathering pallet as in your pic; generally it was some of the later designs, like Smiths who locked with the warning pin to save timing on assembly.
86722.jpg
Hmm. Never seen that before, but I think I see it now. There's a small "tooth" on the left side of the GP in the picture. The detent you mention is directly above the GP. At the end of the strike, the tooth grabs the detent and locks the train. Correct?

Does that mean no warning wheel or warning pin? If so, how does warn work?
Quote:
That raises the locking lever and three things happen: (1) the locking lever raises the rack hook, releasing the rack and letting it drop; (2) the rack hook projection moves out of the way of the warning pin, unlocking the train; (3) the warning wheel rotates a half-turn and stops.
(2) and (3) are simultaneous, and (1) occurs last and only on the hour, otherwise the 1/2 hour cannot work.

What you call a locking lever is a warning lever this side of the pond, BTW.
Yeah, my "locking lever" is the warning lever; but...
Here's the arrangement I'm familiar with. On the half-hour, short lobe of cam raises locking (warning) lever enough to release the train, but not enough to drop the rack. When the lever drops off the cam, the train runs one revolution and locks. On the hour, tall lobe of the cam raises the lever enough to release the train and drop the rack. When the lever drops off the cam, the hour strike happens.

Isn't that what happens here? :confused:

bangster
 

Mike Phelan

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Mornin' Bang
bangster;539269 said:
Hmm. Never seen that before, but I think I see it now. There's a small "tooth" on the left side of the GP in the picture. The detent you mention is directly above the GP. At the end of the strike, the tooth grabs the detent and locks the train. Correct?
Correct. It's mainly the older ones where this happens, and when assembled, you would leave the GP off and move train until the hammer drops, then a bit further until warning pin is 1/2 turn from warning lever and put GP on in the locking position.
The newer ones that lock with the warning pin only need the GP fitting as the warning wheel rotation is fixed; also there is less pressure from the going train to unlock at warning.
Does that mean no warning wheel or warning pin? If so, how does warn work?
As above, there's no difference re warning, except the timing of the WW is fixed.
Yeah, my "locking lever" is the warning lever; but...
Here's the arrangement I'm familiar with. On the half-hour, short lobe of cam raises locking (warning) lever enough to release the train, but not enough to drop the rack. When the lever drops off the cam, the train runs one revolution and locks. On the hour, tall lobe of the cam raises the lever enough to release the train and drop the rack. When the lever drops off the cam, the hour strike happens.

Isn't that what happens here? :confused:
That's absolutely right; the only reason for my comment was that the rack falling was the last thing that happens and only for the hour.

Apologies for any confusion - I'm good at that! :}
 

IanJ

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Feb 26, 2011
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Hello Mike

I've had another look at my movement and see what you mean about the detent on the rack hook locking into the tooth on the GP and that stops the strike from happening. I thought there might be a problem with the barrel spring for the strike side so I stripped down the movement again this afternoon, swapped the barrels over and reassembled. With the springs wound still nothing happens when I lift the rack hook and release the GP. I know I'm a novice at this but thought that when I did this the strike would start - but nothing happens and everything seems a little too stiff when you move the wheels by hand. Is something binding somewhere I wonder?

Have you or anyone else any thoughts on why the strike doesn't work. The clock keeps time wonderfully, just doesn't strike. Just about to lose the will to live now.....:confused:

Thanks

Ian
 

Tony10Clocks

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Hello Ian, I like yourself am only a novice at this clock business and only do it for a hobby. But what i would try is to take out both mainspring barrels and turn one of the strike wheels with my finger and look, listen and feel to see if you can find it catching somewhere along the train, keep turning the wheel oneway then the other see if you can pinpoint the problem. Only a suggestion from someone who don't know a lot about clocks.
Tony
 

shutterbug

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I'm not convinced that the problem is in the lever system. From what you are saying, it sounds like the train will not run even when manually freeing it to do so. If that's the case, you have a power problem. Quite likely a bent pivot or a bad bushing (worn, too tight, wrong place) If you take it apart again, let us see some pic's of how you have the wheels placed now.
 

bangster

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Shut's right. You say the train doesn't move when the levers unlock it, but you can power the warning wheel manually. Major power loss somewhere in the train. Do TonyBoy's test with the mainspring removed, see if you can tell where it is.

If not, remove the 2nd wheel from the train and test it again. Keep going until you find where it's binding.

bangster
 

IanJ

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tonyboy;539428 said:
Hello Ian, I like yourself am only a novice at this clock business and only do it for a hobby. But what i would try is to take out both mainspring barrels and turn one of the strike wheels with my finger and look, listen and feel to see if you can find it catching somewhere along the train, keep turning the wheel oneway then the other see if you can pinpoint the problem. Only a suggestion from someone who don't know a lot about clocks.
Tony
Thank you Tony, spot on! I've just taken both springs out and it was still sticking so I disassembled it again and looked for the problem and found a bent pivot on the fan fly. They're so thin aren't they that I'm not surprised they can bend easily and bind.

Once it was straightened out it ran freely. Reassembled it and it strikes perfectly. Just need to keep an eye on it to make sure it keeps ticking now. Thanks for your help. :D:D

Ian
-> posts merged by system <-
bangster;539440 said:
Shut's right. You say the train doesn't move when the levers unlock it, but you can power the warning wheel manually. Major power loss somewhere in the train. Do TonyBoy's test with the mainspring removed, see if you can tell where it is.

If not, remove the 2nd wheel from the train and test it again. Keep going until you find where it's binding.

bangster
Thanks also bangster - problem now solved!

Ian
 

Mike Phelan

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Just a small point - some of the screws are the same diameter but different lengths; I once had the same problem by fitting the wrong screw on the barrel ratchet cock so it went in too far and fouled the barrel cover.
 

shutterbug

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Mike Phelan;540233 said:
Just a small point - some of the screws are the same diameter but different lengths; I once had the same problem by fitting the wrong screw on the barrel ratchet cock so it went in too far and fouled the barrel cover.
Good point. I've done that too :)
 

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