Help Patti strike movement repair

Discussion in 'Clock Repair' started by Peter Elmendorf ch40, Jun 29, 2020.

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  1. Peter Elmendorf ch40

    Peter Elmendorf ch40 Registered User

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    #1 Peter Elmendorf ch40, Jun 29, 2020
    Last edited: Jun 29, 2020
    I can not get the strike train to remain locked so I can wind it, the count wheel moves tripping the lock lever. I have pictures
     
  2. Peter Elmendorf ch40

    Peter Elmendorf ch40 Registered User

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    Here is one photo

    DE6ECDB9-AE47-461F-B6A6-641DF70A8A35.jpeg
     
  3. Peter Elmendorf ch40

    Peter Elmendorf ch40 Registered User

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    Photo with top plate off

    7C356397-BE1F-476D-AF1E-B18F375D4113.jpeg
     
  4. Dick C

    Dick C Registered User

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    Where is the second gear that is controlled by the click? Note this one:

    IMG_1552.JPG
     
  5. Peter Elmendorf ch40

    Peter Elmendorf ch40 Registered User

    Jun 29, 2020
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    It is shown in the same place as yours is in the picture with the top plate off thanks for looking at this for me
     
  6. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    I,m not sure that I understand what you are asking. Is the strike not working properly?

    RC
     
  7. Peter Elmendorf ch40

    Peter Elmendorf ch40 Registered User

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    I left the word not out of my sentence ; I can not get the strike train to remain locked so I can wind it
     
  8. Peter Elmendorf ch40

    Peter Elmendorf ch40 Registered User

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    I am including another picture showing the strike train but without the warning and the fly, the click wheel is not installed either

    327474F6-8798-4723-9880-C064CB41777B.jpeg
     
  9. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    When the count blade drops into one of the notches of the count wheel the stop pin on the wheel in the last picture must be in position to be arrested by the stop lever. If the pin isn't in position the count wheel will push the count blade out of the notch and the strike will run on forever. With the count blade in one of the count wheel notches, you will unmesh the stop wheel and turn it so the stop pin is at the stop lever and Ramesh the wheel. If the count lever and/or stop lever have been messed with, then the stop lever may not be in line with the stop pin even if the stop pin is positioned correctly.

    RC
     
  10. shutterbug

    shutterbug Moderator
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    I think RC has it. In your first pic, that big spring (or is it two?) are not part of the movement, and don't belong there.
     
  11. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    Peter, as Shutterbug said, the two coil springs shown here in your photo do not belong to this clock and are likely to cause a problem. The Patti movements did not use helper springs but because the count lever is so short and has little weight I have found that, while it will operated OK most of the time, the use of a "helper spring" is indicated. You might find this thread helpful; Welch, Spring & Co. Patti Movement - 3 common problems solved Also Steven Conover's book, How to Repair 20 American Clocks, on pages 133 to 135 gives detailed instructions for setting up this movement.

    RC

    patti-01.jpg
     
  12. clocks55

    clocks55 Registered User
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    Thank you RC and shutterbug. I installed those 2 helper springs to try to solve my problem but the count wheel still moves when I wind it setting off the train I am at a loss on how to proceed, I have followed the set up instructions you have sent in your last post, looked at your new post of your movement and read Conover’s book on this, kindest regards , Peter
     
  13. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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    Did anybody notice that the click wheel is missing??
     
  14. clocks55

    clocks55 Registered User
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    just had it off for the picture, do not worry, I have it
     
  15. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    I think your strike train is locking too late. That is, there us too long a delay from when the count blade drops into one of the notches and when the stop pin contacts the stop lever. That puts the count blade at the end of the notch. You will probably have to disengage the stop wheel and reposition it so the stop pin is arrested sooner after the count blade drops. The count wheel is attached to the main wheel, it is going to back up a bit during winding. Be sure to check the link in post # 11. This movement was designed without helper springs, but some sort of helper spring on the count lever is usually helpful. I am pleased with the straight wire spring shown in the link. I have also used brass spring wire coiled around the count lever arbor and anchored to the movement leg. It should work pretty well without the spring but I find it adds to the reliability.

    RC
     
  16. bangster

    bangster Moderator
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    Do we know that it's locking on the stop lever rather than the maintanance cam?
    Just askin'.
     
  17. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    #17 R. Croswell, Jul 4, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 4, 2020
    Yes, but the blade of the stop lever is very narrow. On this one the count lever blade is a dragger and not raised above the rim, much like a French count wheel clock. There really isn't a maintenance cam. Once the strike train is released from warning the slanted trailing edge of the notch in the count wheel lifts the count blade up onto the rim of the count wheel. When the blade drops into the next notch the stop lever stops the train. So the count wheel itself does what a maintenance cam does in other clocks.

    RC
     
  18. clocks55

    clocks55 Registered User
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    Thank you all for the help I will try all your ideas I am also getting another patti movement next week so I can compare them I will comment again afterwords although I have been doing this 25 years this is my first patti thank heaven for nawcc and you folks
     
  19. Peter Elmendorf ch40

    Peter Elmendorf ch40 Registered User

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    The count wheel moves independently of the main wheel both on the same arbor so when I wind it the count wheel slips and the trailing tapered edge of the gap raises the the count lever and thus the locking lever releasing the train, no matter how I have them indexed. I am still waiting for the other movement.
     
  20. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    #20 R. Croswell, Jul 6, 2020
    Last edited: Jul 6, 2020
    The count wheel is not supposed to move independently, but I have seen them come loose. My personal one was that way and I had to solder it. If it is moving independently it will never work. I'll see if I can dig up a picture.

    RC

    EDIT: See this picture - the count wheel is supposed to be staked to the brass hub, which is attached to the main wheel. The center part must not be loose in the main wheel and the count wheel must not be loose on the hub. It isn't unexpected that someone may have "twisted" the count wheel to line up the star wheel with the notches in the count wheel and caused the count wheel to become loose on the hub. I ended up soldering and retaking mine. It ain't so pretty but she is running and striking fine.

    RC

    ptti-cw.jpg
     
  21. Peter Elmendorf ch40

    Peter Elmendorf ch40 Registered User

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    RC, thank you for the advice and picture. I agree with you, I was mislead by Conover’s statement on page 134 of “how to repair 20 American clocks” where he states “the count wheel can be turned independently by hand” , using this as a simple way to align the lever with a slot
     
  22. Peter Elmendorf ch40

    Peter Elmendorf ch40 Registered User

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    I have now reriveted the front and back of the count wheel assembly and did some file work on the hook. I can now wind it 25 half turns without anything letting go, according to a previous thread 40 turns are possible but mine let go at 30 before I did the repairs mentioned above. So I guess I could go further but I am being conservative . A few notes on assembly, I put the front plate on with the motion work in place and I pass the minute wheel past the count wheel at the 1 o’clock position where there is the most clearance. My levers were bent out of place so after straightening them I have enclosed a picture of them in their proper position. Thanks again for all the help and for the great post of 2013 which I just found.

    image.jpg
     
  23. R. Croswell

    R. Croswell Registered User

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    Mine took 42 half-turns when I wound it last week. With 25 half-turns I doubt that you will get a full week run, at least not without some serious slowing down, but the main problem will likely be that the strike will probably stop first which will allow the count wheel to get out of sync with the time. If you did in fact fix the problem, it should accommodate a full wind without something letting go. If it does let go on a full wind then sooner or later it will let go on a partial wind.

    One hint regarding the strike train, if you added the helper spring on the count lever this isn't as important, but if not, I suggest leaving off the wire that hangs down to allow manually activating the strike. The weight of the wire is counter productive regarding keeping the count lever in place. It really isn't necessary unless you are coing for strict original restoration. Moving the minute hand ahead until the clock goes into warning run, then back off about 10 minutes will cause the strike to advance one step.

    RC
     

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