Patent Timepiece/Banjo Questions

Discussion in 'General Clock Discussions' started by George Nelson, Apr 29, 2017.

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  1. George Nelson

    George Nelson Registered User
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    Hi, All,

    I am seriously considering the purchase of my first patent timepiece clock, and due to my complete inexperience with these usually expensive clocks, I have a few questions about one that I might be able to buy at a pretty attractive price. Here are my questions:

    - Without a name on the dial or a label, is it actually possible to determine a maker? I know that many of these clocks were made with parts obtained from various cottage industry makers, so that most complete clocks cannot usually be attributed to a specific maker, only a specific area. Is this assumption correct?

    - From my pictures, can anyone tell me what the missing pendulum tie down should look like?

    - Can anyone offer an opinion as to whether or not the hands might be original, period hands?

    Sorry, but I don't have any more good pictures at this time. I'll post more later, as they become available. The seller is taking his time providing them to me. The one picture of the overall case is far too poor to post! :mallethead:

    Thanks to all for any help that can be provided!

    Warmest regards,

    George
     
  2. Andy Dervan

    Andy Dervan Registered User
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    Hello George,

    It is almost impossible to identify unsigned timepieces. The movement production quickly became standardized so there are few differences.

    The big differences is how movements are mounted can indicate where the movement was made; there are some cases characteristics that indicate where it was made, but not whom.

    I would not purchase it without actually seeing it; clocks have been altered over the years. Photographs really don't always highlight issues unless taken by known individuals and seller is not going providing damaging photographs.

    Pass on it, if there are any issues - so many clocks have altered (my comment above).

    You can private email me any questions.

    Andy Dervan
     
  3. George Nelson

    George Nelson Registered User
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    Hello, Andy and All,

    Good Grief! I just realized that I quite stupidly forgot to attach the intended photos to my first posting! Old age is really getting to me, I fear!

    Andy, your 'protective' comments are most appreciated, and I was hoping that you might join in with the discussion. Your experience and expertise with patent timepieces is quite welcome and appreciated, as is everyone else's!

    I will not enter into a purchase blindly, as I well know at least some of the pitfalls of a patent timepiece acquisition, and why I'm posting here. I have been provided with many more photos, all of which I attach. The following is what I am SURE of about this clock:

    Lower tablet is an old replacement, on period glass
    Throat tablet possibly original, but with in-painting and restoration of the white background and border. Paintings are of an acceptable-to-me quality
    Gold has been not so well touched up
    Timepiece is commonly referred to as a 'presentation' banjo or patent timepiece
    Replaced convex upper bezel glass
    Single, center bolt movement mounting
    Finial is an appropriate(? opinions solicited) replacement with a crack in the shell, but of questionable vintage
    The circular cutout in the keystone most likely means a "Concord" attribution, but not really sure what that means
    The movement has what is called a "butterfly" suspension bridge
    The clock exhibits what is possibly referred to as a "telephone" tiedown, which is incomplete
    Weight is most likely period, with a "duck bill" type of hook, but cannot be determined to be original to the clock

    Now, for what I don't know:

    Are the hands original or at least period?
    Is circa 1820 a good guess as to birth time frame?
    Is the tie down original, and, if so, what does the missing piece look like?
    Am I correct in assuming that the case, including throat, base or bottom, doors and head piece all started life out together?
    Is a convex glass an appropriate replacement? If so, is there a source for one made of 'period' glass? What should it look like? Should it be wavy or imperfect as are the glasses in my 1830s vintage clocks with flat glass?
    I have no pictures of how the glass is installed. Should it have putty or a different method of being secured within the bezel?
    From the pictures, can anyone tell me if the bezel seems original? Should it be seamless?

    So many questions! Sorry to be overwhelming, but as I said, this might well be my first foray into the world of patent timepieces. I have read many of the posts within the forums about these types of clocks. There are many, many pitfalls and traps in acquiring one. However, my attitude toward this is that the timepiece is attractive to me, and seems fairly complete when compared to others in my price range. Acquisition will not be a major expense, as I have little money lately for clock acquisition. I can afford this one, and I like it.

    So, my friends, let the comments, opinions, criticisms and facts begin! I am very grateful to all my friends on these boards. Through you, I have learned so very much! I hope to begin my patent timepiece education with your comments!

    Warmest regards,

    George
     
  4. Andy Dervan

    Andy Dervan Registered User
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    Hello George,

    Your clock was made originally in Concord, MA; dating it is difficult as the clock is unsigned so I would rather state 1820s than a year. It has four key Concord features: thick head cutout, butterfly bridge, cutout on lower right keystone, and downturned ends for pendulum tiedown.

    The case, movement, and dial are probably original. The hands are possibly original; I would have expected with higher end dial gilt ring inside chapter a fancier style hands. Brass sidearms are consistent with Concord timepieces.

    I doubt the finial is original, but it is probably appropriate replacement. Most original clocks have gilded acorn finials.

    Both tablets are nice, but I believe that they are later replacements. They are not consistent with original Concord tablets, and Aurora was typically found on later timepieces.

    Overall, it is nice looking timepiece.

    Andy Dervan
     
  5. George Nelson

    George Nelson Registered User
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    Andy,

    Thanks so very much for your near-instant response! Your expert opinion is especially valuable to me!

    Can you spare the time to give me an example or description of what appropriate tablet art should be? Also, should I consider replacing the top finial with a more proper one should I acquire the clock? Lastly, your thoughts about the bezel glass?

    Thanks so much, Andy. You have already managed to answer most of my questions. Perhaps a bit of an unfair request here, but is this clock worth acquiring in your opinion?

    Gratefully,

    George
     
  6. Andy Dervan

    Andy Dervan Registered User
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    Hello George,

    See my private message.

    Andy
     
  7. George Nelson

    George Nelson Registered User
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    My personal thanks go out to Andy for his very valuable help with my decision and his PM. I'll post here if I actually manage to acquire the timepiece!

    Best to all,

    George
     
  8. George Nelson

    George Nelson Registered User
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    Hi, All,

    I have been remiss on posting details about this clock. I did indeed purchase it, and my posting delay has been for two reasons: first, because I wanted to get all of my facts straight before posting, and the second is that the clock was a long time in coming. It survived shipping rather well, and am just now beginning to examine it. So far, so good!

    I have LOTS of questions, but will start with my first and most important discovery, one which is VERY exciting to me!

    Please reference the pictures at the beginning of this thread and the ones attached to this update.

    Within the body of this clock, I found a small, clear glass capsule rattling around inside. It is a true wonder that it survived shipping intact, as it was completely loose- not secured or wrapped in any way by the seller. The clock was otherwise very, very well packed and survived shipping quite well. I have surmised that the capsule was probably wedged within the case somewhere, possibly behind the weight shield, unbeknownst to the seller, and became dislodged during shipping. It does not look like the metal shield has ever been removed. It is nailed in place and appears completely undisturbed.

    Within the tightly corked container was an age-darkened piece of paper, folded so it would fit snugly inside. And snug it was, as it took me two very careful hours trying to coax it out! The paper is so very fragile, and I did not want to harm it in any way. The paper had relaxed a bit in its little preservation chamber, and the neck and opening of the bottle was smaller than was the interior. However, out it came, millimeter by millimeter. Whew! I spent another hour carefully unfolding it with my rubber-tipped tweezers, shaking all of the time.

    What I found was an old repair ticket dated May(?) 22, 1879, and an apparently original instruction sheet for the clock, identifying it as an L Curtis, and I have guessed that it might be most likely Lemuel! Of course, I was totally thrilled, but, being who I am, was also a bit suspicious as well. Positive ID of an unmarked banjo is near impossible, as we all know, and, if true, this would be an incredible stroke of luck!

    So, I once again took advantage of my friendship with several professionals at the University of Tennessee here in Knoxville to answer some of my questions. In rather aggressively imposing upon their weekends in my enthusiasm, I learned that the glass capsule was likely a mid-to-late 1800s pill bottle, probably containing liver pills or something similar. The cork displayed evidence of the same period, including manufacturing marks, (steam pressed and shaved to shape, not molded, I have been informed) and the paper the instructions were printed on was definitely early 1800s in origin, but with no watermark to give it any hope of a positive ID with regard to a more specific time frame.

    I was admonished for not letting my friends perform the opening and removal ceremonies, as they reported that I took a BIG chance doing so myself. They were unable to determine how long the little bottle had been sealed, as I removed any chance of the air within it being tested when I went out on my own. However, it could not possibly have been sealed any sooner than 1879, due to the inclusion of the repair ticket. It was discolored, and showed signs of being exposed for a while. So did the instruction label/sheet, as it was much darker on one side than the other, evidence of the printed side being exposed for a time. So, we came to the conclusion that everything had been accomplished around 1900 or so. It seems that the instructions and the repair ticket were important to one of the clock's previous owners, as they had taken the time to "preserve" both.

    I've transcribed the entire label due to the fact that my good camera committed suicide in a fall from my workbench, resulting in about 361 pieces of the $600 camera being scattered all over the garage floor… Sorry about the quality of these images. :(

    "DIRECTIONS FOR PUTTING UP THE TIMEPIECE"

    "Drive a brad in the wall where it is to be placed and suspend the Timepiece upon it. Open the lower door which is un-fastened by turning a button a little forward with the Key. Loosen the pendulum by which the Timepiece may be plumbed, observing that it hangs free of the case and in a line with the point where it was confined; then screw it to the wall with two screws through the back. Put the pendulum in motion. The weight is already wound up. Set it with the minute hand which may be turned backwards or forwards. To make the Timepiece go faster raise the pendulum ball by the screw at the bottom, to make it go slower, lower the ball with the same screw.
    The Timepieces are an improvement upon all others, as they go by a Weight instead of a Spring and the pendulum being of a longer calculation than in any other small pieces, renders it more accurate and has proved to keep better time. The President of the United States having granted a Patent for them, they are made by license from the Patentee by L. Curtis, Concord Massachusetts."

    All of the capitalization and punctuation is as was printed on the sheet.

    In conclusion, my clock collecting friends, I've checked out what I can about my discovery, and everything seems OK so far. I do know that it is impossible to determine if the "preserved" label is truly original to this clock, as it was loose and not glued anywhere on the clock itself. Now, I need some opinions from you!

    Anything you think might be wrong here? Is this an actual Lemuel Curtis patent timepiece? Most of the physical characteristics tell me yes, and the label discovery is another tick (pun intended) in its favor. Is there possibly another L. Curtis that made banjos? Here is a list of the features that lead me to believe it is a true Lemuel Curtis product:

    1.) Movement mounted by 1 screw through back of case (Boston or Concord feature)
    2.) Minimal cutout of head (meaning very thick headpiece walls)
    3.) Lower right corner of keystone is cutout.*
    4.) Butterfly shaped pendulum suspension bridge
    5.) Round steel crutch wire
    6.) Upside down appearance of pendulum tie down (missing retaining plate)
    7.) Broad, sweeping radius of side arms

    * In my short time of research, I have learned that Curtis pioneered the notch idea to avoid the suspension tab from hopping over the bridge. With this design, if the suspension spring is proper and just long enough to clear the cannon pinion (where hands attach) when operating, it is impossible for the suspension to hop out of the bridge when being transported or laid down unless you remove the dial and push the pendulum over to the notch and then push up.

    Has anyone ever heard of a label attached to or loose within a patent timepiece like this? Have I surmised all of my facts correctly? Let me hear from you experts and anyone else, OK?

    I am quite excited about this clock, my first patent timepiece or "Banjo"! :excited:

    Warmest regards,

    George Nelson, feeling very lucky so far…
     
  9. novicetimekeeper

    novicetimekeeper Registered User
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    Great story, congratulations on your time capsule.

    One of my clocks has a pasted label inside giving some history to date, added about 1900, but your find is in a completely different league.
     
  10. ballistarius

    ballistarius Registered User

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    You've been really fortunate, George!:coolsign:
    Congratulations and many thanks for sharing your interesting find!

    Aitor
     
  11. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
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    Well George, it looks like you have done it again. To your many questions it looks like most have been responded to already. But let me toss in my 2 cents worth. The hands look proper and period. I tend to associate them with the slightly later date period of the clock, ie as Andy suggests 1820 ish.....that all goes along with the center bolt mounting of the movement, the style of the dial, and so forth. But the real find is the paper label / instructions. May I suggest you have that label conserved by a specialist? I would think they might well be able to make it one piece again, remove or deal with the acid remaining in the paper, and preserve it properly. Since I am privy to the financials on this let me state I have paid more for clock labels than you have in the clock.....that is a highly unusual and rare piece of paper you have. I have seen one or two similar bills of sale, or warranty statements, for banjos......that is it. A really nice find!
     
  12. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    #12 rmarkowitz1_cee4a1, May 9, 2017
    Last edited: May 9, 2017
    I have no new facts to add at this point, but some thoughts. I apologize if some of this is repetition.

    Screams "Concord, MA".

    If you have a copy of Paul Foley's excellent book, "Willard's Patent Timepieces", he has a very nice section on the Concord, MA makers including L. Curtis. See pages 75-82, especially pages 77 to 78.

    You will see the many similarities between your clock and the examples therein. Most of the salient points have already been mentioned by others. Just to throw out/emphasize a few more. Note how the "head" of your banjo is constructed and cut out for the movement, the glue blocks in the head and "box", the finial plinth, etc, etc. Interesting little tidbit that ties into another feature of your clock. According to Foley, "Curtis is credited with being the first to incorporate mounting his movements with a machine thread screw from the rear through the backboard into the rear movement plate" (page 110).

    RE: the hands. Based upon nothing more than the pix, I do think there is a very good probability that they are "right". In the above cited reference, there are clocks by 2 other Concord, MA makers, Joseph Dyar and Samuel Whiting, with what appear to be virtually identical sets of hands. If not original to the clock, that type was used/available at that time and used by that "school" of clock making.

    RE: the glasses. I would love to see pix of the backs of the glasses before making a judgement. You indicate that the lower is a replacement. Just to play devil's advocate. There are banjos extant with "Aurora" glasses from the 18-teens to 1820's. Neoclassicism was popular and elements were used in that time period in architecture, furniture design, fashions, etc, etc. Furthermore, his brother Benjamin was an ornamental painter who supplied some flashy glasses. Just a thought.

    RE: the weight. Again, in Foley, there are LC clocks pictured with "duck bill" hook weights. My recollection is that the Willards used those, too? He was a Willard apprentice. Though he made a number of changes seen as improvements to the design and construction of the Patent Timepiece, he may have continued doing other things as he learned during his apprenticeship.

    Finding a label like that. WOW. If I look closely at the pix, I think I see almost like striations in the paper?? Laid paper, a type of paper used in that period, would have similar striations when held up to the light. Those striations resulted from the manufacturing process. Another type of paper, woven, was also used and would not have those striations.

    One question I have is were those labels typically glued or tacked some place into the clock? If so, where and is there evidence of such?

    Yes, congratulations upon acquiring a wonderful piece of Americana and thanks for sharing.

    Ah yes, there is a glimmer of hope.

    RM
     
  13. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
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    #13 Jim DuBois, May 9, 2017
    Last edited: May 9, 2017
    RM, I think the lack of space to post warranty statements or bill of sales inside a banjo case is one of the issues. This led to the early demise of many such pieces of paper, or at least the separation of clock and paperwork over the years. I do recall seeing one glued on the lower door backside of a wood front banjo at one time or another. I think there is a photo of the same in one of the various clock books but I have not yet found it today.... the several labels I have owned at one time or another were all found loose in stacks of paper from someone's estate papers. And all those labels were for wood works, not banjos (timepieces), several of these can be seen in Phillip Morris' book on American Wood Works Tall Clocks.

    From time to time we do find such paperwork glued into cases, particularly tall clocks as they have the real estate to do so. So, to repeat myself, to find one for a banjo in decent shape, save the divisions of the paper itself, is very much a good thing. Quite rare and highly desirable IMO and worthy of conservation. A signed bill of sale by Curtis would be even better but what George has now is very rare...I don't recall ever seeing anything similar for a banjo...I suspect Paul Foley would like some photos of the label.....here is what can happen to old labels, this clock has had 2 such labels, one over pasting the other, as well as a record of it's sale and interest and the like paid out.....these have nothing to do with George's timepiece but are suggestive as to why his finding the preserved piece of paper in overall great shape is very special.
     
  14. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    Points well taken and I agree as to why this paperwork pertaining to banjos are probably so infrequently found.

    I too have some vague memory of a picture in a book of the back of a banjo box tablet to which the original receipt was pasted. Can't place it and not able to go digging around just now.

    Not really the same thing, but here's a repair label on the back of what I believe to be the original glass in a roughly contemporaneous Boston area presentation banjo clock:

    [​IMG][​IMG]

    This clock made it to Maine and it was at least 30 years old when that label was placed there. Man, that Mr. Willia was truly a jack of all trades? The subject clock of this thread made it to VT based upon the pictured repair label. These things were prized possessions and they moved with the family and obviously gave long service! A tribute to their makers.

    I will add that Howard banjos and some of their other wall regulators may have labels pasted in them. Here's an original but very faded one on the bottom board of a Howard #4:

    [​IMG]

    Here's the same one but more legible label attached to the baffle in a Howard # 70:

    [​IMG]

    Of course, these are much later clocks and all of what I'm posting here is a bit like comparing apples to cumquats.

    RM

    PS: I WANT TO SHOW THE PIX IN LINE BUT NOT GIANT SIZED. CAN ONE OF THE MODERATORS HELP TO ACHIEVE THAT? THANKS.
     
  15. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
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    here is one loose receipt for payment of a repair of Currier banjo as well as some other items
     
  16. George Nelson

    George Nelson Registered User
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    Hello to All!

    Finally got a little bit of sleep- I was SO excited about this find that I was up for a very long time researching, etc. I love a clock with a good mystery, and my exciting and lucky find makes things so much fun!

    Now, as to your specific comments:

    Novicetimekeeper, your kind words are both rewarding and appreciated! It is indeed marvelous to find such an indication of a clocks' history. I only wish the label was dated, but perhaps I want too much! I was so very blessed to make this discovery!

    Aitor, I always appreciate your comments. Your expertise with restoring Cuckoo Clocks is quite impressive, as is your knowledge of such.

    Jim D, thanks so much for your "2 cents"! As you know, we have been discussing this clock since long before I actually received it. My friends at the University have also suggested conservation. I'm currently in the process of contacting several firms about just this process. I've only received a single reply so far, and am waiting on others. I will most certainly have it conserved and restored. Considering having it framed after conservation under the proper glass for display by the clock. You mention having a bill of sale for a clock- what a wonder that would be! Sort of like a birth certificate for one, wouldn't you think?

    RM, Paul Foley's book has been ordered, and should be here soon. I am looking forward to it. It has been mentioned so many times in my research efforts that I just had to have it! I'm glad that you are in agreement that the timepiece is consistent with Concord pieces. As I have said, I'm quite new to the world of Banjos, and it is always great to get a expert's confirmation of my initial research from both you and Jim. Regarding the hands, I've looked at them under magnification, and they are certainly hand made. Very delicate work and most impressive indeed. It really makes one wonder how much time it took in the 1820 to make such an item- simply fascinating! I've attached pictures of the back of one of the glasses, but the restoration efforts have covered up most of the original painting, I fear. The lower glass is for sure a "replacement" on old glass, consistent with the throat glass, but I was told by the seller that it was done to duplicate the original image. I know there have been questions about the subject matter being inappropriate for the time frame of the glass, so your comments are welcome. Perhaps Mr. Foley's book might shed some light upon that. I've attached pictures of both the throat and bottom backs, as well as of the pulley, weight hook and through bolt. Finally, as you state, there are indeed striations on the paper when a strong light is shone through it. It is one of the things I first looked for, and was most gratified to see them! There was, however, no watermark that I could find. Would "label paper" have been watermarked I wonder? Interestingly, there was no sign on the instructions that indicated it ever having been attached to a surface, as there were no adhesion marks whatsoever. There were glue stains on the repair ticket, however, but I could not locate a proper area with a shadow of where it might have been attached.

    And again, Jim D., your comments on the lack of space for attaching an instruction sheet seem correct to an inexperienced me. There is no shadow for this piece either, and, seeing it in person leads me to believe that it was always loose. What a marvel that somebody saved it, even if they did stuff it into a leftover pill bottle. The originator of such an action would be gratified I'm sure to know that his or her efforts pretty much worked. I will contact Paul Foley once conservation is complete and I can locate his information. The pictures of the labels in your clock are so very interesting. If only it was more common to have such historical information.

    So, I'll shut up for now! Thanks everyone for tolerating my very long posts about my latest find! I certainly need a little excitement in my life these days! Any more comment or thoughts are of course most welcome.

    I'll keep everyone informed as to the conservation of the instruction sheet and label!

    Warmest regards to all,

    George Nelson
     
  17. George Nelson

    George Nelson Registered User
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    RM,

    Well, it seems that you were posting while I was typing!

    Thanks for the additional pictures- those labels are quite interesting. I know that some do not give too much weight to repair marks, but I am not one of them. To me, they are wonderful documentation of a clock's history and often, place within the household. In today's throw-away society, it is so interesting to see how somewhat common household items were so much more valued than they were today.

    Best to all,

    George
     
  18. George Nelson

    George Nelson Registered User
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    Wow, Jim. Quite interesting! Clock repair was expensive back then, as it still is today! And the items listed along with their prices speak to the comparative wealth of the original purchaser. It is also interesting to see the confirmation of the 1/2 cent, produced by the US Mint from 1793-1857. The economy was certainly different back then, wasn't it?

    George
     
  19. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    Gee, ain't those prices still you're going rate?? :chuckling::rolleyes:

    RM
     
  20. PatH

    PatH Registered User
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    RM,

    What a wonderful repair label. It's actually an uncut watch paper, and truly shows how versatile the watch papers could be.

    Thanks for sharing!
    Pat
     
  21. PatH

    PatH Registered User
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    George,

    All I can say is WOW!!!

    What an amazing, well-researched clock! Enjoy it!

    Pat
     
  22. George Nelson

    George Nelson Registered User
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    Thanks, Pat! I am indeed enjoying it. It is up on the wall and running now. It has a soft, but authoritative tick. With the movement being so well made, I suspect that with a bit of care and maintenance, it will run far longer than I will!

    All my best,

    George
     
  23. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    You're welcome.

    I have had other clocks where a watch paper doubled as a clock repair label.

    Note what a versatile man Mr. William S. Willia (gotta love that name) of Cumberland, ME was!

    Did all that stuff....and sold family medicines to boot.

    RM
     
  24. Steven Thornberry

    Steven Thornberry User Administrator
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    Columbia seems to be on the label (actually Colunbia, when you get right down to it).
     
  25. rmarkowitz1_cee4a1

    rmarkowitz1_cee4a1 Registered User
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    Ooops. My bad.

    RM
     
  26. George Nelson

    George Nelson Registered User
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    #26 George Nelson, May 11, 2017
    Last edited: May 11, 2017
    Hi, All,

    Latest Update on the Patent Timepiece: My friends at the University had me contact the library department about restoration and conservation of the instruction sheet found within my timepiece. They will stabilize, repair, conserve and return it sealed within two sheets of UV protective glass for much less than other offers I've received. The label and repair ticket are now with them, and I should have things back within a week or so. I will then frame them together and display both with the clock. Considering that the glass will eliminate the possibility of further light damage, it will be safe to do so.

    I'm glad, as it is an important piece of the clock's history. I know that the inclusion of the label does not mean that it is 100% guaranteed to have originated with this clock, but all evidence certainly points to the fact that it does. The clock is now up on the wall, and merrily ticking away in our living room.

    When hanging the pendulum, I noticed a small hole in the bob, almost dead center of the front, drilled or punched through the brass covering only, and not into the lead back. (See attached picture.) Does anyone have any thoughts as to what the hole could be for? I just checked using a jeweler's loupe, and the hole seems to have been punched, as the edges show a rounded edge indicating such a process.

    Thoughts and comments most appreciated.

    Best to all,

    George
     
  27. George Nelson

    George Nelson Registered User
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    Hi, All,

    A short update on my Lemuel Curtis Patent Timepiece:

    Just got the label back from the conservator at the University. I'm well pleased with it, and he graciously included the little glass vial that I found the label in.

    Constantly searching the Internet for all things clocks, I stumbled upon an old auction piece that appears very similar to my label! Except for the maker, the wording is almost identical, and appears to have been folded as well. The auction label has wider margins than does mine, but the restorer offered the opinion that mine had been trimmed with hand scissors in order to have been able to fit in the vial. The layout and border of my label differs a bit, but I was also told that is is an age-appropriate border that has been seen in other pieces. The auction piece is framed as well, interestingly in a frame that is similar to those used when the clock it belonged to was of fairly recent manufacture. Sadly, the printer is not identified on either piece.

    This clock continues to intrigue me! If anyone has any info or thoughts on the small hole in the brass pendulum casing, I'd love to hear it! (See post 26 just above.)

    Thanks to all,

    George
     
  28. Dick C

    Dick C Registered User

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    George,

    Unfortunately I cannot reproduce what I am about to reveal as it is in a book.

    However, if you can find a copy of American Banjo Clocks by Steven Petrucelli and Kenneth Sposato you will find on Page 6, Figure 4 the label that you are displaying.

    It appears to be yours.

    They reference another book, A Study of Simon Willard's Clocks by R. W. Husher and W.W. Welch which has a label on Page 95. It is not yours; however, a few of the same words.

    Perhaps another starting point for your research.

    Regards,
    Dick
     
  29. Jim DuBois

    Jim DuBois Registered User
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    George, I have both books to which Dick refers if you don't. We can take that offline. Regards the hole in the bob face. I would suspect that to be where a compass point was driven into the brass so as to draw the cutting circle for the face. No reason for it to be there, just an overzealous apprentice with a hammer and a punch done a couple of hundred years ago. The apprentice went on to become a successful politician where he solved the nation's problems with a large hammer.... or was that a big stick?
     
  30. George Nelson

    George Nelson Registered User
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    Dick,

    Thank you very much for that info! I don't have either book, but in the next reply below, Jim DuBois is kindly making an offer to help.

    I appreciate you efforts on my behalf, Dick, and am most grateful!

    My very best,

    George
     
  31. George Nelson

    George Nelson Registered User
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    Jim,

    Thanks to you also for your kind offer. I'll contact you off the boards to see about those two books.

    In the meantime, your explanation of the tiny hole in my pendulum bob makes perfect sense, and once again, I am humbled by your thoroughness and abilities in solving my mysteries! I always enjoy your humor as well!

    Many thanks,

    George
     
  32. Dick C

    Dick C Registered User

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    I had these reversed. The Husher book shows a label; however, with the name Cummings and yours shows Curtis. The Petrucelli/Sposato book shows the one found on the Internet.

    I think I have it in the correct order now.
     
  33. sylvester12

    sylvester12 Registered User
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    Beautiful clock George looks great hanging on your wall, nice history that goes along with it.
     
  34. George Nelson

    George Nelson Registered User
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    Thanks, Sylvester12! I appreciate your comments. Congratulations to you on your two recent clocks. I well know the anticipation and excitement of waiting for new purchases to arrive!

    Best,

    George
     
  35. Andy Dervan

    Andy Dervan Registered User
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    Hello George,

    Paul J. Foley's book on Timepieces is the most thoroughly researched and documented.

    The Ela, Husher, and Petrocelli books have issues; they are nice books to have in a collection, but I always turn to Paul Foley's book for answers to questions.

    Andy Dervan
     
  36. George Nelson

    George Nelson Registered User
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    Thanks, Andy. Foley's book is the one I have purchased and have started reading. I'm really glad to have it. So much wonderful information!

    Best to all,

    George
     
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