Pateck Geneve Cylinder 4 Rubis?

[Shawn Moulder]

I know this is not a real Patek watch, but could anyone tell me information about this watch? I know it's a swiss bar movement watch. I would like to really know the age of the watch, I would presume 1870s to 1890s? Also can anyone explain the lack of a pallet fork on this movement?

 

[pmwas]

Look for cylinder escapement - plenty od descriptions.
Pallet fork is a part of lever escapement, while this watch has a cylinder escapement and that's it
Your age estimations should be more or less correct, but it's always hard to tell exactly… or even a broad range can be inaccurate

 

[gmorse]

Hi Shawn,

There's no pallet fork because this is a cylinder. The escape wheel has teeth on stalks and these engage directly with the balance staff, the central part of which is a hollow steel cylinder with 2 cut-outs to let the rim of the escape pass through, but which alternately lock and release the wedge-shaped wheel teeth. The wedges act on the lips of the cylinder to provide impulse.



This escapement was developed by George Graham around 1727, (the pictures are of a 1770s English watch), and was used extensively by the Swiss in their lower and entry-level watches into the 20th century. I guess it was easier for them to make it, and also it would run with only 4 jewels.

Regards,

Graham

 

[pmwas]

BTW, I've always wondered why they cohse cylinder over duplex... Duplex seems easier and cheaper to make… Was cylinder considered better than duplex?

 

[gmorse]

Hi Paul,

Duplex seems easier and cheaper to make… Was cylinder considered better than duplex?

The duplex was regarded as a very superior escapement, but was quite expensive to make, at least in the European forms, (leaving aside the Waterbury with its stamped out escape wheel), because of its tiny jewel roller, and demanded great precision in manufacture to achieve and maintain accuracy. The cylinder was a great improvement on the verge, which was its competitor when it was first developed in 1727, but the duplex was a further improvement, although still a frictional rest escapement like the cylinder, and apart from the detent, was the leader until the introduction of the detached lever in the early 19th century. One advantage of the duplex was that locking and impulse were achieved at different radii. Certainly in the UK, duplexes were never cheap.

Regards,

Graham

 

[pmwas]

Yes, English duplex watches are still not cheap (cylinders as well)
Maybe it is as simple that unlike in Europe, Americans simply found a way to produce a duplex watch cheaply

 

[gmorse]

Hi Paul,

Yes, English duplex watches are still not cheap (cylinders as well)
Maybe it is as simple that unlike in Europe, Americans simply found a way to produce a duplex watch cheaply

You're probably right, the English trade made watches up to a standard, and the US 'dollar watch' trade made them down to a price. The Waterbury duplex is a remarkable production engineering achievement, and an example of what the English trade never got to grips with.

Regards,

Graham

 

[Dr. Jon]

A major reason the Swiss and French used the cylinder movement is that a small town, Le Haut-Doubs (see BookFinder.com: Search Results) developed an industry around making these and developed both an economy of scale by making a lot and a system for repair.

Although the skills are now largely lost, a well trained repairer could fix most problems with a cylinder quickly and cheaply. For example the pivots were on replaceable ends so broken pivots were readily replaced from assortments sold by material houses.

The duplex never got this kind of industrialization and was not popular outside of the UK.

The watch is real in that there really was a Geneva maker who worked under the name Patek. He traded on the name recognition of the better form until Patek Philippe finally decided to take legal action to shut them down.

 

[VICENTE RAMIREZ]

Hi. I have read the indications of Dr. Jon, in which he alludes to the city of Le Haut-Doubs.
The caliber is shaped like the Lepine type IV caliber.
According to A. Chapiro's book, the Lepine IV caliber was first manufactured in 1835. The Lepine caliber factory in 1835 was under the direction of Mr. Fabre, according to wikipedia.
Could you tell me if these factories were located in the French-speaking areas of Switzerland, near Besancón?
That series of books that links are publications of consultation to know these industrial movements?
Thank you

 

[Dr. Jon]

The ebauche was made in one of several Lepine caliber factories. The escapement was added by other makers. The escapement parts were called an "assortismont". They were made by specialist makers. Most were in the French speaking area of Switzerland in either the Geneva area or the the "Vallee De Joux" near Neuchatel.

Your watch shows the ability of a Geneva IV to be finished with different escapements. The dial plate has a smaller plate set in it on the right side of your picture.

View attachment 596238

For cylinders most of these came from Le Haute Doubs .

Swiss watches were made by many specialists even when they came from "factories"