Pallet Swapping? Gustav Becker 1903 Vienna Regulator

[JamesBB]

I have a 1903 Gustav Becker Vienna regulator. The pallets (removable) have significant grooves in them and I want to swap them round. So two questions if anyone can help:

1. I think these pallets were made so that they could be turned around to double the life. It looks they are each made with 'both' ends in terms of the angles. Would that be right? So the entry pallet becomes the exit pallet and vice versa (with the unsued end obviously).
2. Does anyone have a clever way of ensuring that they project the same distance as they did before when I replace them? A template of some kind or other etc?

Photos to help attached!

Thanks so much for any help.

James

 

[wow]

I have never heard of them being swapped. In fact, I never loosen them for any reason. Keeping the original angles is critical. They can be filed and polished usually and that will last many years. Sometimes the pallets need to be moved slightly closer to the EW after polishing.

 

[JamesBB]

I have never heard of them being swapped. In fact, I never loosen them for any reason. Keeping the original angles is critical. They can be filed and polished usually and that will last many years. Sometimes the pallets need to be moved slightly closer to the EW after polishing.

Interesting since they were designed to be reversed. What do you polish worn ones with?

 

[Willie X]

You would normally remove and reface the worn pallets one at a time and put them back in there original positions. Fine tuning is always necessary.

Much information on this subject is in the archives of this MB. Look up 'refacing Vulliamy pallets'.

You will need some special tools and a full understanding of how this escapement works. It's not really a job for a beginner. And, if this clock is dear to you, it would probably be best to send this job out to a pro.

My 2, Willie X

 

[Peter John]

They can be reversed. I have done it more than once. Measure the length of the part that sticks out from the bottom of the pallet frame to the tips of the pallets. May take a little fiddlin but it will work fine when you get it right. Peter

 

[JamesBB]

They can be reversed. I have done it more than once. Measure the length of the part that sticks out from the bottom of the pallet frame to the tips of the pallets. May take a little fiddlin but it will work fine when you get it right. Peter

Thanks. That’s good to know. And was I right in thinking they need swapping when one does so?

 

[Peter John]

They need to be swapped

 

[Willie X]

It may be worth a try, you might get lucky.

Just don't expect it to work right without some adjustments.

Willie X

 

[leeinv66]

Just because they can be swapped, doesn't mean they should be. My experience is that the angle on the un-used end of the pallet is NOT normally the same as the angle on the end of the pallet that engages with the escape wheel. Yes, it is normally close enough so the movement will run, but it will not be running to its optimal capacity. Maybe it is an optical allusion, but the angles on the pallets pictured do not look the same to me.

 

[R. Croswell]

The "other end" of the nibs is usually not polished and ready to use. I think the usual approach would be to regrind and polish the existing working ends.

RC

 

[shutterbug]

I don't see a problem with giving it a try. Sometimes they will work, and sometimes they don't. Just measure everything so you can put them back where they were if there's no joy in the switch.

 

[Keith Doster]

Measuring the length of the pallets is certainly necessary in order to return them to their original locations assuming they are in the correct position already. I would try pressing the entire verge assembly into Rodico or a clean clay-like material in order to have a form or mold in which to fit the pallets after filing, polishing. etc. It may or may not work. Just a suggestion.

 

[wow]

The reason i never loosen them is that they were set correctly at the factory many years ago and many years ago I learned the hard way that changing that setting can cause many hours of frustration trying to re-set them. Maintaining the original angle of both pallets is not difficult if you mount the pallet in a vice or a “frog” (ask Willie x), and use a pivot file to reface. I polish pivots with a couple of fine disk polishers that I use for polishing pivots.

 

[JamesBB]

The reason i never loosen them is that they were set correctly at the factory many years ago and many years ago I learned the hard way that changing that setting can cause many hours of frustration trying to re-set them. Maintaining the original angle of both pallets is not difficult if you mount the pallet in a vice or a “frog” (ask Willie x), and use a pivot file to reface. I polish pivots with a couple of fine disk polishers that I use for polishing pivots.

That's helpful but given the fact that you need to file them down to eliminate the wear, you are thereby changing the factory setting. So I'm not sure the reticence to use the other ends (which are, in fact, polished) is really justified if you measure carefully surely?

Thanks for your help.

James

 

[wow]

James, did you swap them? I am interested to see if it worked. I also would like to know if the angle of the faces were right without having to reface them. How did you determine the depth of the pallets? Please keep us informed of your progress.

 

[TQ60]

Get a caliper or micrometer and measure the position of the pallet.

Try to measure the angle on the end, photo with it in front of something with lines for reference maybe.

Do one at a time.

 

[JamesBB]

James, did you swap them? I am interested to see if it worked. I also would like to know if the angle of the faces were right without having to reface them. How did you determine the depth of the pallets? Please keep us informed of your progress.

Yes, I did. And with some very careful adjustment to get them the right length, they work well. The clock goes but often stops after a few hours. So i'm not sure what's wrong (perhaps the pallet wheel's teeth need careful examination?). But essentially it has worked, and I don't think the stopping problem I have now is down to the pallets (unless someone tells me otherwise) since the first time I ran it the clock went for three days, though now it seems it will only go a few hours).

Many thanks.

James

 

[JamesBB]

Yes, I did. And with some very careful adjustment to get them the right length, they work well. The clock goes but often stops after a few hours. So i'm not sure what's wrong (perhaps the pallet wheel's teeth need careful examination?). But essentially it has worked, and I don't think the stopping problem I have now is down to the pallets (unless someone tells me otherwise) since the first time I ran it the clock went for three days, though now it seems it will only go a few hours).

Many thanks.

James

PS I measured them with the 'other' end of a pair of digital calipers, making sure to orientate the calipers in exactly the same way each time.

 

[leeinv66]

But essentially it has worked

The movement may run initially even if the pallet angles are wrong. They may not be providing enough impulse to maintain operation of the movement. Hearing that you haven't already taken a close look at the escape wheel teeth is worrisome. That is one of the first thing that should be done when you suspect there is a problem with an escapement. You have changed the pallets around without knowing if their angles are correct. That has only muddied the water. You cannot say it worked when the only evidence you have is it ran for three days then stopped and now only runs for a few hours. All that could happen if the pallet angles are wrong. That implies something changed within that initial three day period to make the clock now only run a couple of hours. Did anything change? If not, the three day run period might just be an anomaly.

You need to confirm the escape wheel teeth are in good condition, are consistently gapped and that none of them are bent or their tips fish hooked. You need to make sure the escape wheel is actually round and that there are no bent pivots on the escape wheel arbor. Then you need to make sure the pallets have the correct angles and are set to the appropriate depth. Until you have done that, you are only shooting in the dark.

I'm not saying this to be a grumpy old man, I genuinely believe that unless you approach clock repair (especially escapement repairs) in a methodical and systematic manner, you can end up spending weeks running around in circles and still not end up with a running clock.

 

[Willie X]

Yep, not that difficult to fix if you know how. Close up videos are about the only way we can help from this end. The best help illustrations (I know of) are in the 400-Day Repair Guide and Laurie Pennman's book on escapements.

PS, I dont think the pallets are bad enough to make your clock stop. The real trouble is probably elsewhere.

Willie X

 

[JamesBB]

Yep, not that difficult to fix if you know how. Close up videos are about the only way we can help from this end. The best help illustrations (I know of) are in the 400-Day Repair Guide and Laurie Pennman's book on escapements.

PS, I dont think the pallets are bad enough to make your clock stop. The real trouble is probably elsewhere.

Willie X

Thanks Willie. Here's a close up video. Not at all easy to film!! Anyway, if there is anything you can see here I'll tremendously grateful.

Thanks.

James

 

[Willie X]

James,
If your clock has been running like that for several minutes, the escapement is in good shape. Willie X

 

[shutterbug]

Yeah, the one pallet we can see looks pretty good.