Packing a nine tube Grandfather for moving

Bruce Alexander

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I see it now. Thanks.

Someone phoned that hack in. Looks like something done by a curious owner. There shouldn't be much in the way of wear and tear on the Strike Silencer Lever but I agree with Justin, you need to lose the paper and perhaps replace it with metal washers. Test the Lever without any type of "Washer" in place to try to better understand just what the issue was that lead to this "repair". The Strike Silencer is supposed to work independently from the Chime Silencer in these movements. You can set Chimes to run without an hourly strike and Strike to run without Chimes. Please let us know what you find. Honestly, I don't recall having a lot of washers on that post, but someone put the paper there for a reason I'm guessing. I think that the Lever is supposed to be held in place by detents in the Face which work with the little handle coming through

You said in post 16 that the movement wasn't working. What have you found out about it so far? Have you gotten past the foam blocks against the pulleys yet?

Regards
 

disciple_dan

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Yeah, When I went to start the job of packing this up for transport, someone on the board mentioned cracked tubes clunking. I decided right then that I was going to cycle thru the melodies and video it while doing it just to make sure it was ok. It was. That way if it clunks when I put it back I'll know I didn't cause it. They moved the case and the tubes themselves. So, I tried to get a tick-tock but there was none. The clock had stopped at 3:10. When I moved the hand I heard a click and stopped. I tried to see what made the click but could not. I decided to try the pendulum again and it was working. It's running now and I should be able to get the foam out in the morning. I'm thinking it was something in the moon dial that had it stopped. I'm going to watch this work for 2 weeks and then take it down for cleaning and a thorough inspection. I'll need a lot of advice about how to diagnose a worn bearing.
Read the last part of#46. That lever with the paper washers had quite a bit of pressure on it. It does have the detents or small notches in the dial to help stay the handle. I'm not sure if that is correct or not at this time.
I'd like to suggest using a heavier viscosity lubricant on the Great and Second Wheels too. What type of oil do you typically use on your movements?
I use 859 on most all of the clocks I do. I use a little heavier synthetic oil on the great wheel pivots but I don't know much about that. I'd like to learn more. Let's talk about that.
Thanks, Danny
 

Bruce Alexander

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Dan,
I hope that you don't mind me responding to "snippets" of your post. If I take anything out of context, let me know.

..... The clock had stopped at 3:10. When I moved the hand I heard a click and stopped. I tried to see what made the click but could not.
That might have been the movement attempting to Chime the 15 minute mark. See if you can reproduce it while looking directly at the front of the movement.

...
Read the last part of#46. That lever with the paper washers had quite a bit of pressure on it. It does have the detents or small notches in the dial to help stay the handle. I'm not sure if that is correct or not at this time.
Not sure what the goal was with the paper "washers". My advice would be to remove them and test the Lever's function. If it needs washers, place proper ones. There should be detents in the Face and the Lever should engage with them to keep in the proper Silent/Strike position.

...
I use 859 on most all of the clocks I do. I use a little heavier synthetic oil on the great wheel pivots but I don't know much about that. I'd like to learn more. Let's talk about that.
Thanks, Danny
I don't know if you've seen these articles before but let's call them time-tested, which is key when discussing lubrication...



While I do stock clock oils, I mostly use motor oil these days.

There are a lot of Threads/Posts and many opinions on the subject of lubrication. You could start another Thread on the subject but I'd recommend that you search the archives first.
 
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Richb134

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I think Bruce is right on track with the pre strike for the quarter hour. Curious to hear what you find.
Good luck.
Rich
 

disciple_dan

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Ok, I got the job of tearing down the Herschede for complete cleaning and inspection. I have Steve Conover's book but will surely have more questions. It's working so I'm going to study it working for several days, take some video and lots of pictures before I even before I take the first screw out. This is my first one and I don't want it to be my last.
What are some of the most probable wear points or possible problems to look for?
Thanks for your interest, Danny
 

Bruce Alexander

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Hi Danny,

I'll try to get the ball rolling, so to speak. First of all, the owner reported to you that the clock wasn't working, is that right? Did it not run at all, or did it keep time without chiming and/or striking? If it didn't run at all and you now have it running on your test stand I'd suspect that the owner didn't have it in beat, but that's just a guess. It doesn't take much beat error to stall one of these movements.

In my experience the lower wheel pivot holes/pivots experience most of the wear. Gathering Pallet pivot holes for sure. Also the front Escape Wheel Pivot Hole seems to get more than its fair share of wear and tear possibly due to the Seconds Hand load.

Every movement is unique and has been operated under a unique set of circumstances. When evaluating pivot holes for wear, I like to remove all power to the train and then power/reverse power the train with finger pressure to see if the pivots "jump" back and forth. I do this before cleaning and again after cleaning before I decide which pivot holes need to be bushed (or re-bushed).

The plates are pretty big. You may wish to carefully clean them by hand. That will reduce the chances of you accidentally removing the lacquer finish (assuming it's still present) and perhaps even damaging the Damascene fish-scale pattern that Herschede is known for.

You'll need some tall bushings because the 1.4 mm or even the 1.9 mm bushings won't cut it. Measure the plate thickness while you're doing your preliminary work up and make sure your bushings are tall enough. I use the KWM System. Believe it or not, I've seen these plates bushed with 1.4 mm KWM Bushing and it's just maddening to me. If you're going to work on movements like this, you really should gear up for the task.

I'm sure other members will chime in with great advice for you. One way to move forward would be to work from Conover's Shop notes and ask specific questions on anything that doesn't seem clear to you. Just as there are no two antique movements which are exactly alike, we're all working in unique shops with tools, supplies and experiences that are unique to our situation.

Let us know what you're looking at and what you're working with.

Regards,

Bruce
 
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disciple_dan

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Hey, thanks for your generous help. I'm not going to start this for about a week because I want to get a couple of other clocks moved out of here so I can have room and then focus on this one until I can get it ready to put back together. I'm reading ahead in Steve's book to become familiar with the movement which will help when the time comes.
There is one question I have is, he says the first thing to do is remove the hammer cords. He doesn't give any details. They appear to be looped around the screw knobs on the hammer tails. I think it was Richb that said don't try to adjust them. I was just wondering how hard it is to get them adjusted again. Can I do that before I put it back in the case? Anyway, I'll be starting it at the end of next week. I'll be asking some questions then but I think it's going to be a great job.
Thanks, Danny
 

shutterbug

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Easy peezy. They just thread through a hole or a groove and you tighten them "to taste" :) No worries.
 

disciple_dan

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Thanks, SB. So, you get the hammer set the proper distance away from the tube and then tighten the screw down to trap the string?
 

shutterbug

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The easiest way is to set it with the thumb screws. When it's right you'll see it as well as hear it ;)
 

Richb134

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I think I remember reading that the chime tube lower tension adjusters should not be messed with on a previous thread. I don’t recall why or if it was discussed.
 

shutterbug

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They can be messed with, but usually don't need anything. Unlike the upper parts, they don't change much from use.
 
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Bruce Alexander

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Generally speaking, you don't want to change the factory settings on either end of the springs. If you increase the tension you risk stalling the chime train, especially on the Whittington melody where you have a lot going on. If you decrease the tension you could end up with an anemic hammer strike although I guess that's much better than a stalled train. The springs are best kept in their factory settings. You just need to use the top "screws" to adjust the resting distance of the hammers from the bells. It's really a pretty neat setup with a spring within a spring where the cords attach. The inner spring allows the head to strike the bell and snap back which, when properly set, prevents multiple"stuttering" bell strikes.
 

NEW65

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A few months ago I dismantled an Hermle 1171-890 9 tube movement and fitted several bushings. TBH i expected more wear as the owner had never had the movement serviced but surprisingly it was in good condition. These movements look more scary than they actually are! Update us Dan when you've done the job. Good luck with it.
 
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disciple_dan

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Thanks, guys. I start taking it down in the morning. Yeah, lots of pics. They are a little intimidating to look at but it's just a clock. I hope this is just the first of many. I'll be in touch. Thanks, Danny
P.S. Yeah, what do you think he needed to put all this weight on here for. I need to figure out why and correct it.
20220429_124209.jpg
 
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Bruce Alexander

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Danny,
With your attention to detail I'm confident that you'll do well with your first Herschede 9-Bell movement.

I see what you're talking about with what looks like some lead weight added to the Quarter Rack Hook. It appears to be a band-aid fix for a Rack Hook which may have been failing to lock. If you don't catch the problem in the act, it will show up with the Chime Weight dropping faster than the Time Weight. I've found on an occasion or two that the answer was to carefully dress the tip of the Rack Hook so that it fits into that last tooth with a high amount of precision. The Rack Hook tends to get a rounded profile as it wears, and the way that Herschede designed the Chime and Time Trains to go into lock introduces sudden and considerable force as the Gathering Pallet comes around and "hits" the Lock Pin on the head of the Rack. If you don't have a good fit between the Rack and Rack Hook, the Rack Hook can bounce up and allow the Rack to fall past a few teeth or even back to the Snail.
Every design has it own set of strengths and weaknesses. It's own traits and tendencies. Then you come across the work of who knows how many repair/maintenance attempts before the movement crosses your Bench. Here's a recent Thread that you may find helpful: https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/hersch...gathering-pallet-failure.187478/#post-1531606

My advice would be to remove the added weights, but don't toss them just yet. Hopefully they have not been soldered in place. They are not Factory and shouldn't be necessary. Some folks are working "on the clock" and need to solve an issue as quickly and as surely as they can. No one wants call backs or warranty work, but I think in the long run, the added weight will accelerate wear in an area that is already prone to wear.

Please keep us all advised of your progress and of any questions you may have.

Best wishes,

Bruce
 

disciple_dan

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Thank you, Bruce. What a blessing to have so much experience so freely offered. You may have just saved me many hours of frustration and what I have left of my hair. It's still on the stand with the weights on. I'll see if I can get those pieces off and watch it run for a while. That's a great help. Thank you so much. I'll be in touch. Danny
 

disciple_dan

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I'm polishing the pivots on the Herschede movement today. In this first picture, I'm pointing to a line at the tip of the pivot on the transmission gear for the chime barrel. (Well, I forgot to save the edited version with the arrow.) I hope you can see the line near the tip. This line is caused by the pivot being longer than the polishing wheel on my rollimat. It's longer than the rest of the pivots so they all came out good.
20220518_100019.jpg
That pivot goes in this housing in the vertical position.
20220518_100655.jpg
and rides on this adjustment screw. I
20220518_100715.jpg
Polishing it reduced the size of that part of the pivot from 1.55 mm to 1.48 mm. not much but, I'm not sure what to do about it. There is no arbor or pivot on the other to chuck up in a lathe to file and burnish it. I was thinking of slipping a snug bushing over the pivot and polishing just the tip down to the 1. 48 mm size with my rollimat, or at least closer to that size.
I've got another issue with this same arbor but I'll deal with that in a later post. Thank you for all your help, Danny
 

disciple_dan

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If you bush the plate
I personally could not bush that gear stanchion. It has an adjusting screw in the bottom to adjust the height. This is how it's mounted.
20220511_174209.jpg 20220511_174232.jpg 20220518_100715.jpg
I think that would be difficlut for even seasoned Clockmaker. I'm going to slip that bushing on the pivot and polish it on the tip there.
The other issue I had was the same gear and arbor in that stanchion. In the top hole of the stanchion it is pretty rough and has made a slight groove in the arbor. I hope you can see it these pics.
20220518_100926.jpg 20220518_101028.jpg
How critical would you think that bearing spot would be. I was thinking I would polish the arbor and smooth broach the bearing.
Thanks again, Danny
20220511_174209.jpg 20220511_174232.jpg 20220518_100926.jpg 20220518_101028.jpg
 

Bruce Alexander

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Hi Danny,

I'm not familiar with the Rollimat equipment and use my Lathe instead.
I would caution you to stay conservative here. The Bevel and Crown Gears you're dealing with are quite different from the typical gear/pinion/pivots/pivot holes found throughout most of the movement. I think that clean and smooth should be adequate.

Note that the adjustable "Pivot Caps" (my term) located on the front and rear plates are meant to keep the driving gear ideally placed while transferring power to the intersecting axis of the Bevel Gear. Do not make adjustments to those pivot cap screws unless you know for a fact that it is absolutely necessary. Unnecessary friction introduced by poor gear mesh will be enough to cause stalling of the Chime Train.

Regards
 
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disciple_dan

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Yeah, I have no plan to make an adjustment on the screw that is for this pivot or the ones on the front and back which Conover calls the second shaft assembly. This one sets in the movement vertical so it's on the bottom of that housing. I am just trying to get the pivot polished on the tip that my rollimat didn't get to. I tried to learn how to polish pivots on my lathe but had very little success so I got a Rollimat. It does a great job on standard length pivots but this one is very long. I'll get it done.
The vertical adjustment on that gear is for meshing with the gear for turning the cylinder to lift the hammers. It also has an adjustable bevel gear on the arbor that meshes with the chime train.
I like the quality of this clock but am still a little intimidated by it. It's going to need a couple of bushings. I'm wondering if my KWM reamers are going to be long enough to get all the way thru? I'll do some measuring before I make any attempt to bush one. I'm ordering the bushing now.
As always, Thanks. Danny
 

bruce linde

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i did experience some issues with thicker/older plates and my kwm reamers... I went slow, had to do one hole from both sides, and also used a bit of cutting oil
 

disciple_dan

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I went slow, had to do one hole from both sides,
Are you doing yours by hand? I wondered if I may have to go in from both sides. I'm using a Keystone machine for bushing but was thinking of other options on this. Got any more insight to share? Thanks a bunch, Danny
 

bruce linde

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i was using my bushing machine.... the plates were really hard. i double-checked the reamers on another movement and they went right through the plates....
 

disciple_dan

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Bruce, since you use a bushing machine, I have a side question. Those that use hand tools to bush say they either file the hole on the opposite side of the wear to the same as has been done to the worn side so that the reamer will find the center. Some say they use the reamer to take a scope out of the original hole to make the compensation. Do you do either of those things to the hole you are getting ready to ream with your machine? Thank you for your time and experience, Danny
 

Bruce Alexander

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I have no plan to make an adjustment on the screw that is for this pivot or the ones on the front and back which Conover calls the second shaft assembly
Okay. I suppose I brought it up because it is closely related to the assembly you're working with and it illustrates the differences in force transfer up the gear train.

I use KWM Reamers and have not had problems bushing these types of plates.

In the past I prepped using a Drill Press. Over the last couple of years I've been prepping with a Mill.
 
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bruce linde

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hmm... you do remember i'm a hobbyist and not a david labounty, yes? :)

i initially learned how to hand bush, and hand file to mirror the wear pattern(s) so reamers would maintain original centers. i guess i find doing that while wearing my clip-on monocle both more accurate/deliberate, and up-close/satisfying.

i do sometimes just do everything on the bushing machine, but i prefer being able to triple-check what i'm doing by rocking gears in pivot holes to make sure i know exactly where the wear is.... and that's easier when the plate is not clamped down into the bushing machine.
 

disciple_dan

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Thanks, Bruce. Yeah, please feel free to give warnings of unnecessary tweaks and adjustments. I do tend to want to straighten out any bent wires or levers when I find them. Most need to be straightened because the repair needed to be done somewhere else in the train. When people don't understand the root of the trouble they will find another way to compensate for it. I've done it too :whistle: I usually had to go back and find the root.
Like, I left some of the gear wheels in the US too long and had to wire wheel them all to make them shine again. I was thinking of spraying them with some lacquer but I don't think I will. I hope to be the one to work on this clock when it needs to be serviced again. Wait, I hope I'm fully retired when this clock needs to be serviced again.
Thanks a million, Danny
 

disciple_dan

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hmm... you do remember i'm a hobbyist and not a david labounty, yes? :)
Aren't you a hobbyist only because you are an unpaid professional? :confused: That's the way I see you.
If I'm not mistaken, Mr. LaBounty does all of his work by hand and uses the scoop method to compensate for wear. (don't quote me on that.) When I do bushing in my machine, I use the scoop method also. When accessing the damage, I mark the worn side of the bearing. When I begin reaming I put one of the cutting sides of the reamer in the worn place and apply pressure while turning the reamer is a way that scoops out some of the original side of the hole. As the opposite side of the reamer approaches the worn side again I let up on the pressure to not cut as much on that side. I do that several times before going in a full circle with my reamer. I liken that to Mr. LaBounty's "Scooping" I hope that makes sense. If it has excessive wear I do the filing thing and broach it out before clamping it in my machine.
I'm self-taught so I'm just fishing for some insight or criticism or both.
Thanks, Danny
 

disciple_dan

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Is it ok to put the brass cable in the US? It has a nylon cord core. The drum was disassembled and the cable threaded in and tied in a knot to keep it. I would have to take the screws out to remove the cable. Is that a good idea? Thanks, Danny
1653056370113.jpeg
 

Bruce Alexander

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Hi Dan,

Is it ok to put the brass cable in the US?
Personally I would not do so. I don't know if it will cause harm or weaken it, but I don't see much benefit in doing so. If the cable is in good physical condition I would just reinstall it as is. If not, I would replace all three with new cable. BTW, You definitely should clean, service and lubricate the pulley axles.

Is that a good idea?
Do what you need to do in order to get the job done well. I've seen cases where a previous repairer just cut the cable and left the old knot in the drum while installing a new cable. Not something I would do but some like to literally take short cuts. :)
 
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disciple_dan

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Thanks, Bruce. I don't take shortcuts. That sometimes (cuts) into my bottom line on the job but it always (cuts) down on my callbacks.
I'll take the screws out and put a little thread locker on them when I get the drums clean. I see it has thread lock on there now. The cables look good for wear. I've looked for any fraying or crimping and found none.
I was wondering if I should remove the click to get it clean underneath? It's on there hard. I couldn't easily break the screw loose. I'll see how free they are after cleaning.
Thanks, Danny
 

disciple_dan

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I thought this drum would come apart but it is not budging. I was able to manipulate the knot out of its keeper but I'm not sure I like that. The Hermle drums with the crimped-on cable ends are easily removed from their keeper. There is a stump inside the drum at the keeper on this Herschede to detour it from coming right out. I guess it will be ok. The drums are going in the cleaner without the cables. Thanks, Danny
1653318812067.jpeg
 

disciple_dan

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When you are done cleaning, just make sure they are real dry. Hair dryer may not be enough. A warm oven, not hot, for 30-45 minutes will do
Yeah. Thanks, Thomas. I read somewhere (maybe Conover) that if you don't get them dry you could get some cleaner oozing from the drums after assembly. That would not be good and would necessitate a disassembly to correct.
I'm getting ready to put a Pizza in the oven. Maybe I can put the drums in afterward while it's cooling and I'm having lunch. Wise use of time too.
Thanks for all the great advice, Danny
 

disciple_dan

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Does anyone know if these nylon washers are original equipment and if so, do they need some grease or oil? Thanks, Danny
1653410644607.jpeg
 

bruce linde

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Aren't you a hobbyist only because you are an unpaid professional? :confused: That's the way I see you.

i'm flattered... but still not a pro. i do on occasion get paid for working on someone's clock, but it's not the main thing i do... my clock hobby is a pretty much all-consuming hobby that i'm not going to contaminate by worrying about breaking someone else's clock, or providing a warranty, or dealing with the myriad issues reported by the real pros who frequent the MB.
 

disciple_dan

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Yeah, I looked at the way all of that worked together and it is not designed for the washers to be there so I ditch them. Those gears only move about a 1/4" in relation to one another, if that. Only when you wind it.
I'm putting it all back together now. No real repairs so far. I did have to straighten both ends of two arbors. I found that they were binding and had no shake. All of the pivot bearings looked good enough to last for many years in comparison to the age of the clock.
I used 859 oil on everything but the drum arbors. I'm working on the pully's now. I hope to have it on the test stand in a couple of hours.
Thanks for watching and helping. Danny
 

disciple_dan

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Can/should I change the name of this thread? There's a lot of good information piling up on the Herschede movement and the title does not reflect what this discussion has turned into. Someone suggested to me long ago to keep going back to the same thread for a question or comment on the same movement instead of starting a new one for each challenge that may be encountered.
I have just always done that. Is that good advice? I now try to name my threads with specific clock movement names. I did not do that with this one.
Thanks, Danny
 

disciple_dan

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I'm thinking I need to replace this anchor. This one is worn pretty well. I'm wondering how one would go about removing the original and getting the new one affixed onto the arbor?
Can anyone offer any information on that subject? I'd sure appreciate it. Danny
Herschede Anchor.jpg
 

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