P.S. Bartlett models #'s and production questions.

yellow_sub

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Over the years I've gathered several models of the PS Bartlett and wanted to try to get my hands on one of each. (probably wont find an 1861 but I can wish lol) Anyway, my curiosity got me wondering, what were each of the models of this grade that Waltham produced? You can search production by grade, not model, as far as production goes on the database. Overall the PS Bartlett had 4505 runs with a total of 1,334,310 movements. With all the models that I already have or have been able to find online, I've come to the total of 4,420 runs and 1,315,165 movements. Differences of 85 and 19,145. My main question is, what models am I missing from my list? So far I have the Bartlett being made as-
Model 1857 - 2836 Total production runs / Years Mfg. 1857-1886
Model 1859 - 84 Total production runs / Years Mfg 1860-1865
Model 1861 - 5 Total production runs / Years Mfg. 1862-1866
Model 1865 - 68 " " / " " 1866-1875
Model 1874 - 58 / 1875-1879
Model 1877 - 532 / 1877-1886
Model 1879 - 57 / 1880-1884
Model 1883 - 533 / 1882-1919
Model 1890 - 6 / 1902-1912
Model 1892 - 53 / 1901-1913
Model 1894 - 4 / 1924-1925
Model 1899 - 79 / 1900-1908
Model 1907 - 9 / 1907-1915
Model 1908 - 105 " " / 1908-1932

I have seen listed here, at this link toward the bottom, the Bartletts listed in a size 6 or 8 Model 1873 and a size 14 model 1897.
Unfortunately I haven't been able to find anywhere a picture of one of these with PS Bartlett engraved on the movement. So I have no S/N from these guys to look up in the database and check if this is correct or how many runs were done of these models. Thanks for the help everyone!

EDIT #2: Model 1907 now added. Now down to missing 76 production runs and 13,945 movements.
 
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Lee Passarella

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When you say runs, yellow_sub, I assume you mean production sets within a certain year. As far as I can tell from my sources, I just bought a P. S. Bartlett produced in May or June of 1860. But you don't note any runs in 1860. Am I missing something?
 

yellow_sub

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Those were run number totals for each of the model number listed next to it. The first line would be saying Model 1857 had 2836 runs over its production lifespan. (which for that model was 1857-1886) Sorry I wasn't very clear with that.

Edit: Actually, I edited the first post to make it a bit more clear there.
 
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Jim Haney

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Can you find a copy of Vernon Hawkins Book c1982 of "Movement Production" American Waltham Watch Co.
50 Models---1462 Grades?

How did you find your Info thus far?

I can list these grades not on your list, however I don't know if PL Bartlett are in these grades
1860,62,68,70,72,88

There is a Model 1907, "0" size that had a Bartlett grade in it.
 

topspin

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Interesting...

According to this lookup http://nawccinfo.nawcc.org/LookupSN.php
the OP's list is missing the following...

An unspecified 3/0s model
1900
1907
A model called "Special" which is based on model 1861 only bigger. (One is pictured in the 4th post of the Evolution thread.)

The one that interests me is the 2 runs which are either model 1897 (which I am a big fan of) or model "COL" (which can be made to fit into an 1897 case at a push, as per the 19th post in https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/12-size-waltham-evolution-briefly.3007/ but are not the same thing.) I would enjoy inspecting it if an example came my way.

Also rather interesting is why they skipped models 1872 and 1888?
 
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yellow_sub

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Can you find a copy of Vernon Hawkins Book c1982 of "Movement Production" American Waltham Watch Co.
50 Models---1462 Grades?

How did you find your Info thus far?

I can list these grades not on your list, however I don't know if PL Bartlett are in these grades
1860,62,68,70,72,88

There is a Model 1907, "0" size that had a Bartlett grade in it.
Thanks Jim, I hadn't heard of that book, I'll have to look into that. For the info I've accumulated so far, the production numbers were all from pocket watch database. As far as finding out which models exist, a lot of searching online. Various online auctions, social media sites and also from the models I have myself. I already have a 57,65,74,77,79,83,90,92,94,99 and 1908. I'm aware of other Waltham grades, but just focusing on the Bartlett's right now. And thank you again for mentioning the 1907!! Hadn't seen that one before but sure enough there's a thread on here with a beautiful one.

Now edited first post again to include numbers for the model 1907.
 

yellow_sub

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Interesting...

According to this lookup http://nawccinfo.nawcc.org/LookupSN.php
the OP's list is missing the following...

An unspecified 3/0s model
1900
1907
A model called "Special" which is based on model 1861 only bigger. (One is pictured in the 4th post of the Evolution thread.)

The one that interests me is the 2 runs which are either model 1897 (which I am a big fan of) or model "COL" (which can be made to fit into an 1897 case at a push, as per the 19th post in https://mb.nawcc.org/threads/12-size-waltham-evolution-briefly.3007/ but are not the same thing.) I would enjoy inspecting it if an example came my way.

Also rather interesting is why they skipped models 1872 and 1888?
I really appreciate that info and the link! I was able to look at the numbers much easier there. I had no idea about that. My guess is that the COL is short for their Colonial movement? The list there doesn't mention the model 1897, the 97 and COL are the only 14s PSB's and when you type one of those individual S/N's into the database it comes up as a model 1897. Production numbers match between the 2 as well. I'll add the numbers for the 73, 97, 1900 and "special" then update the list after some more hunting.
 

yellow_sub

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Oooooookay, so here is the list which, I believe, has all the models included now.....maybe? Seems to be 19 in total.

Model 1857 - 2836 Total production runs / Years Mfg. 1857-1886
Model 1859 - 84 Total production runs / Years Mfg 1860-1865
Model 1861 - 5 Total production runs / Years Mfg. 1862-1866
Model 1865 - 68 " " / " " 1866-1875
Model 1873 - 7 / 1878-1881
Model 1873-Q - 3 / 1882-1885
Model 1874 - 58 / 1875-1879
Model 1877 - 532 / 1877-1886
Model 1879 - 57 / 1880-1884
Model 1883 - 533 / 1882-1919
Model 1890 - 6 / 1902-1912
Model 1892 - 53 / 1901-1913
Model 1894 - 4 / 1924-1925
Model 1897 - 2 / 1917-1918
Model 1899 - 79 / 1900-1908
Model 1900 - 3 / 1907-1914
Model 1907 - 9 / 1907-1915
Model 1908 - 105 / 1908-1932
Model Special - 5 / 1862-1866
Model ?? Size 3/0 - 4 / Unknown

The exact production numbers wont match up with either of the lists I've been using for this but they don't even match each other so I'm not too concerned about that part. I do have some other questions and side notes now after looking more into this though.

For the mystery model that is 3/0s, if you enter any of those S/N's into the database, it says "Model: 1892, 1899 or 1908". None of those are the 3/0 size so I'm not sure where to go on that one right now.

On top of the Model 1873 in an 8s, it appears there was also an 1873-Q in an 18s. When those numbers are entered they say either a model 77 or 79. (I didn't check literally every single one, just the ones listed in the chart linked earlier) Does anyone know more about this model or the differences from the other 18s bartletts of the time?
If anyone has more to add, especially about the more rare models, I'd love to hear it
 
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Jerry Treiman

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....
Model 1897(COL) - 2 / 1917-1918
....
I think you can safely delete the "(COL)" from this entry. This notation does not appear in the gray book and would seem to have been incorrectly introduced by the original compiler. I have not seen one, but I'm fairly certain these would be 1897 models, as listed. That is definitely one to watch out for.

The "SPECIAL" is the 12-size keywind of which there were only 380 made. It is derived from the 10-size 1861 model.
10-12_Bartlett.jpg
 
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Lee Passarella

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Those were run number totals for each of the model number listed next to it. The first line would be saying Model 1857 had 2836 runs over its production lifespan. (which for that model was 1857-1886) Sorry I wasn't very clear with that.

Edit: Actually, I edited the first post to make it a bit more clear there.
Thanks for the clarification, yellow_sub. I should have figured that out.
 

topspin

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Where you see 1873-Q (or anything else -Q) you can interpret it as "Queried" i.e. someone has already identified that something doesn't quite add up. Find an actual watch from the queried run and I'm sure the administrator would be interested to see it.
Follow the link through to the scan 1954 Waltham Gray Book Serial List Online | Pocket Watch Database
and you will see the 1873-Q runs shown as model 1879 and I also see a research note verifying 1 example.

Likewise - find an actual watch from the 4 mystery 3/0s runs, and we'd all love to see it. If you follow the links through to the scanned version of the gray book, you will see them marked as models 1900/1907. I am content to believe that these are probably correct until a counter-example turns up.

 
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yellow_sub

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Wanted up to update this with some new additions I've picked up over the last few weeks. I found a Model 1874-10, in pretty good shape but missing the second hand and, of course, the case.
DSC00979.JPG
DSC00988.JPG
DSC00984.JPG

This one is a Model 1907 0s. Again, no case, but everything is there (dust shield even) and it runs, so I can't complain. At least there's plenty of 0s cases out there compared to 10s haha
DSC01030.JPG
DSC01035.JPG
Big thanks to member "topspin" for messaging me the link to this watch. It's one of those odd models discussed earlier. It's listed in the database as a Model "1924 Col.b". I'd assume that means Colonial Bartlett? But it's also listed as a 17j, when the movement is clearly stamped "NINE JEWELS". I'll look more into it later.
DSC01014.JPG
DSC01024.JPG
 
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topspin

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DSCN9303.JPG

Photo - the P.S.Bartlett with a difference - they put the P.S.Bartlett name on the dial.
This came to me recently from a seller in Ireland, it's a lovely Dueber Special case. On the inside was a model 1883 PSB which, shall we say, has been extensively used for spares.
I'm tempted to just add hands & a crystal and leave it as a display-only piece.
 

yellow_sub

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WOW, all the hunting I've done for the Bartlett's and I haven't seen a dial like that before, nice find!
 

richiec

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Maybe you can find a movement in the same serial number range and put the dial on it.
 

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